I hope this is in the right area. I was reading Jeff Cooper's book "The Art of the Rifle." In the section dealing with the offhand position, Cooper says, "The sling is not to be used from either the standing or offhand position. In my youth several coaches encouraged the use of what was called the 'hasty sling.' It never did anything for me, and it is geometrically unsound."
Has anyone tried the offhand position with and without the hasty sling? What is your opinion?
Quote from: Garand on July 21, 2011, 06:53:49 PM
I hope this is in the right area. I was reading Jeff Cooper's book "The Art of the Rifle." In the section dealing with the offhand position, Cooper says, "The sling is not to be used from either the standing or offhand position. In my youth several coaches encouraged the use of what was called the 'hasty sling.' It never did anything for me, and it is geometrically unsound."
Has anyone tried the offhand position with and without the hasty sling? What is your opinion?
I have done it both ways. The sling tightens up groups tremendously. If you want to know for yourself, go and try it this weekend at the range. Be sure to give both your very best shot and see what results you get. Try an AQT under time and see what you get points wise.
Maybe Col. Cooper meant the Hasty-Hasty? Because that just doesn't make much sense.
I am a firm believer in the use of the hasty sling in the standing/offhand position. I find it very useful in the standing position. I am not here to criticize Cooper but the first sentence is a clearly normative statement as proved by his follow up comments.
I find hasty, when understood and used properly, to be very geometrically sound in the standing position. For more information on the nuances of the hasty sling I would refer you to the 194 M1 Garand Training Video which expressly states that hasty sling is should be rarely used EXCEPT in the standing/offhand position where it is of particular value. (3:20ish mark on Youtube video attached.) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mh4zt_8tZYM
The instructions for proper hasty use, including the the twist, are at the end of this segment and the beginning of the following segment. (Don't forget, though, that you need to pull down to create proper sling tension after inserting the arm into the sling. It is not stated but shown in the video)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xh9gb4KJcUs&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxbW4Hwb1T8&NR=1
I don't know much about marksmanship or American History but I am under the impression that the gentlemen from the presented generation knew enough about marksmanship to PROVE the historical place of American marksmanship supremacy, therefore I bow to their wisdom on the topic.
I shot blackpowder exclusively for over 20 years and slings are firmly banned in competition. They don't ban things that put you at a disadvantage.
YHJ
PS. Yes, I've read his books.
Quote from: Garand on July 21, 2011, 06:53:49 PM
I hope this is in the right area. I was reading Jeff Cooper's book "The Art of the Rifle." In the section dealing with the offhand position, Cooper says, "The sling is not to be used from either the standing or offhand position. In my youth several coaches encouraged the use of what was called the 'hasty sling.' It never did anything for me, and it is geometrically unsound."
Has anyone tried the offhand position with and without the hasty sling? What is your opinion?
If used properly; it is anything but geometrically unsound. It essentially unifies your entire upper body. Less movement means less variables. Less variables means more consistancy. Which leads to precision and accuracy.
However, if your position is flawed - The hasty sling can indeed work against you.
Untill I really had my standing position down - I too did better without a sling.
It's especially usefull when implemented in connection with those heavy old battle rifles. ;)
First - its all I use. Try getting a loop sling on in real life (sweaty, coats, shooting at something besides a target that is just sitting there).
Second - try it, you'll like it. One of the big things I like about a sling (no matter which way you use it) is the way it helps control recoil on bigger calibers.
You tube is okay. However, even the gospel has been written in multiple versions and interpreted many ways. Try it on for yourself before you accept what you hear/see on youtube (or the internet in general).
Quote from: SPQR on July 21, 2011, 07:42:49 PM
I don't know much about marksmanship or American History but I am under the impression that the gentlemen from the presented generation knew enough about marksmanship to PROVE the historical place of American marksmanship supremacy, therefore I bow to their wisdom on the topic.
Cooper actually was of that generation. He was also a combat Marine, excellent rifleman and extraordinary thinker.
I have thought about his view of the sling in offhand since I first read the "Art of the Rifle." A couple of things come to mind. The first is that you make offhand shots in the field only when you have to. If you have time, you use another position. By their nature they are quick and relatively close. The last thing you want to do when facing a charging lion or Rhino is to sling up in any way. Cooper's use of the rifle was in field shooting, hunting and combat. These are very different than punching holes in paper at either 25m or known distances (including qualifications).
On the other hand the sling can help you to shoot better on the range. But practice without the sling can do the same thing. Appleseed teaches the sling because we use training methods derived from the Army and they taught the sling.
I use a hasty sling when I have time for it. I use it for AQT's (but might use a loop as well). I also shoot High Power without using the sling at all.
In closing I think that Cooper's comments are more related to using the rifle when facing mortal danger.
Mike
That could be why Cooper was such a fan of the Ching Sling on his Scout Rifle concept - supposedly because it was superior to hasty in standing. Having both I gotta say that I find the hasty steadier, but the Ching faster to get into for a quick shot.
I like the Hasty sling for standing, and have proven it's value numerous times.
As for speed, check into African Carry. Done properly, you can mount the rifle into a good standing position, with the Hasty sling in a just a second or two. I usually demo African Carry at Appleseeds (to prove the value of a hasty sling for hunting).
Cooper taught the 'snap shot' in standing in his rifle class. Hit a 4" target at 25 yds or a 10" target at 50 yds, starting in standing ready (port arms), in 1.5 seconds. No time to sling up for that one.
By "geometrically unsound" Cooper probably meant that the hasty sling is not a loop which captures both upper and lower arms and prevents your support elbow from opening up and your support hand from dropping, as a true loop sling does.
The Ching is a speed loop, which gives you full loop support, using the speed and motion of the hasty sling to acquire. The best of both worlds. With the Ching, there is no 'hasty' vs. 'loop', there is just the one method of getting into the sling, which puts you into a loop. Although 'hasty-hasty' can be used, and it gives you a little more support than a regular sling. Very handy gadget to hang on a field or battle rifle. You can get into a loop in less time than it takes to go from standing to sitting.
I've been watching this thread intently. No doubt the hasty is the best option in the standing position and I knew nothing about the Ching. After seeing it used on several videos, it appears to nothing more than a loop sling that's faster to get on but doesn't look any faster (slower in fact) than if you have the loop sling on already, which I would have if expecting any action. I've evolved where I use the loop for everything and find it faster and more consistant than a hastily done hasty! :)...O.L.
Of course, if one is in the field they can also move around in a properly slung hasty and they would find that they have full use of their trigger hand, their rifle is still well controlled and can be carried in a port arms position or a muzzle down position comfortably, and they are slung already should the need arise for a field expedient shot. It is a fairly healthy walk for me to get to my range on the farm and I hike to the range ready to drop any coyotes (pronounced KI-OATS) that want to get stupid enough to come down off the ridge and make a play for a calf or lamb. Though my marksmanship is not what its should be the coyotes aren't filling their bellies with my livestock. The risk, i would reckon, is in stumbling and driving the muzzle into the dirt but that hasn't happened.
On a side note, the woman and I were watching a movie the other day and we saw a guy in an action scene taking shots from a properly slung hasty with a USGI sling and using his rear foot to shift between his shots from a standing position. We both jumped up and said, "Did you see that?" She ran to the computer to IMDB who the guy was and where he was from. Turned out he was Swiss. I was embarrassed.
I used to use a Hasty Sling on my duty weapon, M4 carbine. I had a Viking Tactical quick adjustable sling that I used on it for the past 2.5 years for this purpose. The sad part was every time I've went for qualifying firing sessions no one else knew how to use there slings and failed to use them while shooting (the Air Force doesn't teach marksmanship at all, just how to operate the firearm). I actually taught the last group how to use their slings (they all thought it was just for carrying the firearm) I qualified with while the USAF instructors watched, THEY didn't even know how to use a hasty sling, and most of the group went from barely qualifying to most scoring expert. Now, some officer that no doubt hasn't fired a rifle in years if not his career, made it mandatory that we all have about 5lbs of lights, IR Lasers (that don't get zeroed) and tactical Gucci gear on our M4's. To top it off with that policy we are now only authorized single point tactical slings.
Now that I got my rant over with, I find a hasty sling as extremely beneficial.
Slings are just another tool in the toolbox to help you hit. There are many ways to configure them, in fact so many ways as to boggle the mind if you really dig into it. If it works, then it works, and no need to wonder about it being properly doctrinaire etc. if applied outside our own very specific Appleseed world . We just happen to use a certain doctrine outside of which we do not go, but the world of riflery skills goes beyond that.
Slings of any kind are banned in the standing/offhand stage in some competitions. I find that a loop sling helps me a little bit in standing, a hasty sling considerably more. Some claim they can't tell any difference at all.
Tempest in a teapot, it seems to me.
People of good will can disagree. Slings in standing help some, and it's something we teach, but do not require. Sounds like a good solution.
I am new to Appleseed, and as a result of being a veteran of nuclear subs, I was never trained to or exposed to the loop sling prior to Appleseed. I've always shot a hasty sling, and I definitely find the hasty more stable and supportive in standing. That being said, I've also learned the benefit of the loop in sitting/kneeling/prone, although I have also shot hasty in all positions.