I found out today at work (a gun shop) that you must be 21 years of age or older to purchase an AR-15 lower receiver. I was inquiring because I was thinking of purchasing one in the future, but I cannot because I am 19 years old...why is this in place, you might ask?
Because, heaven forbid, one of these receivers could be used to make a handgun! ::)
Just thought I'd let some of you all know in case any of you are under 21 years old who like ARs...
B5
Give them the cash then screw on a butt stock before they transfer it. Once it has had a stock installed it is no longer a virgin receiver, and thus can no longer be built into a pistol without jumping through the NFA hoop.
I'm only an FFL Dealer, NOT a manufacturer however, what I understand from the manufacturers I purchase from is this concerning the OPs concern the age to legally purchase:
Lower Sn#'s are registered as either "PISTOLS" or "RIFLES".
Now here's the regs, If it's registered as "PISTOL" then it can only be sold to someone over 21 as in any handgun.
If they're built and registered as a rifle, than they can be sold to anyone 18 or older.
YMMV as rules are fickle and so are dealers/manufacturers because of that fact.
The stock addition or deletion is another question/matter entirely.
Quote from: vernic82 on July 07, 2011, 09:27:32 PM
I'm only an FFL Dealer, NOT a manufacturer however, what I understand from the manufacturers I purchase from is this concerning the OPs concern the age to legally purchase:
Lower Sn#'s are registered with the AFT as either "PISTOLS" or "RIFLES".
Now here's the AFT regs, If it's registered as "PISTOL" then it can only be sold to someone over 21 as in any handgun.
If they're built and registered as a rifle, than they can be sold to anyone 18 or older.
It'd be nice if that were the case, and I know I could be mistaken, but I was reading the back instructions of the 4473 and it said only rifles or shotguns can be transferred to people under 21 and over 18. Anything that falls into the "other" or "handgun" category cannot be transferred to persons under 21. It said that receivers were in the other category. I think it was question 18 or something..the one where you check mark the type of purchase.
makes sense - I rarely (perhaps if ever) have customers under 21 as they usually possess Pistol Permits as one is not held to the waiting period here in CT with one. Thus as those who buy from me must be 21 to have obtained their Pistol Permit.
Quote from: TheIronMantis on July 07, 2011, 09:19:19 PM
Give them the cash then screw on a butt stock before they transfer it. Once it has had a stock installed it is no longer a virgin receiver, and thus can no longer be built into a pistol without jumping through the NFA hoop.
I think this is not good advice.
As far as deleting a post you're probably right, you can't delete the "evidence" that you posted. You can go back into the post and delete everything you type and leave a short note that you made a mistake, or changed your mind, or learned something that made your post no longer necessary to the thread, etc., etc., etc.
You could contact the local ATF office and ask them yourself.
You'll also find that having an FFL and selling guns does not make the dealer an expert or always correct. I've been to gunshows and been told I cannot buy an "assault rifle" without proof of US citizenship (apparently not a requirement for certain jobs, but supposedly a requirement here in VA). I've walked over to another dealer a few table away and bought the very same "assault rifle" with only my driver's license and concealed carry permit as proof of ID.
Who's right? Heck, they sure don't know (the dealers). There's a thread on a state forum in VA about some FFL dealers/sport shops calling folks up after they've bought a gun and gone home they've received a phone call asking them to come back and make some changes/fill out a new form since the first one was not filled out correctly when the FFL sold them the gun.
Don't break the law, just get a second or third opinion (check with the ATF).
Quote from: Old Dog on July 07, 2011, 10:51:45 PM
Don't break the law, just get a second or third opinion (check with the ATF).
It actually wasn't the dealer I heard this from..because I work there haha. It actually stated in the "Instructions" section of the form 4473 in regards to receivers (and that anyone under 21 cannot purchase anything that falls under the "handguns" and "others" section...the receiver apparently falls into the latter). So in a way, that's directly from the ATF, I suppose.
Thanks for the advice!
Here's a quote from the form 4473 in regards to instructions for Question 18 that refers to the type of firearm purchase.
"....18 U.S.C. Section 922(b)(1) makes it unlawful for a licensee to sell any firearm other than a shotgun or rifle to any person under the age of 21. Since a frame or receiver for a firearm, to include one that can only be made into a long gun, is a 'firearm other than a shotgun or rifle,' it cannot be transferred to anyone under the age of 21."
I've actually been given conflicting when I asked them the same question.
Mostly either will say, "don't ask me about their forms.....we don't care....."
Yes, I've actually heard that one!
Quote from: professor gun on July 07, 2011, 10:34:01 PM
Quote from: TheIronMantis on July 07, 2011, 09:19:19 PM
Give them the cash then screw on a butt stock before they transfer it. Once it has had a stock installed it is no longer a virgin receiver, and thus can no longer be built into a pistol without jumping through the NFA hoop.
I think this is not good advice.
O0 O0 O0
Hey, I'm just going to get my dad to buy it under his name. Then again, I'm under 18 too :).
Could you some how arrange to buy a complete rifle instead of just the lower? (Get creative here Roland.)
Remember the gun laws have absoultely nothing to do with commons sense or right or wrong. IMHO gun laws are meant to, as Ayn Rand predicted, to make each and every one of us a criminal. Nothing more and nothing less.
If one lived in the great state of California one could just be use the perfectly legal intrafamily transfer (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Transferring_Firearms_Among_Some_Family_Members#Family_gun_transfers_in_California_.28parent.2Fchild.2C_grandparent.2Fgrandchild.2C_husband.2Fwife.29), which incidentally allows under 21's to legally own a handgun as well :)
IANAL, consult your own state's rules, etc., etc.
Thanks
Oh, sorry about the confusion. I'm building my first AR, and the lower is the only part that requires an FFL.
It'll technically belong to him, but I'll be the one shooting it the most.
Let me know if you want me to edit my post.
ATF did one of their little "it's always been this way but now we're going to do it differently" rule changes a year or so ago.
Stripped lowers are not registered as either a rifle or pistol and do fall into the other category and can legally be built as either so you have to be 21 now in case you were to build a pistol
You can still legally buy a built lower while under 21.
For now.
Be aware that the under 21 thing only applies to buying from dealers. An 18 year old can own and legally buy a handgun (or stripped receiver) from another individual.
That can depend on the laws of the various states. Be careful. Special "Assault Weapon" rules may apply as well. Research your state to be sure.
This really only happened a couple years ago when ATF added a third firearm type "Other" to the form. The for lists "Long Guns", "Handguns", and "Other". Since receivers aren't rifle or pistol specific, the simple bureaucratic thing to do is to go with the MORE stringent requirements.
I bought several receivers before the 4473 changed and then you had to tell the dealer which way you wanted them to go, rifle or pistol.
Typical.
-David
Quote from: NMMI9100 on August 05, 2011, 07:50:36 PM
This really only happened a couple years ago when ATF added a third firearm type "Other" to the form. The for lists "Long Guns", "Handguns", and "Other". Since receivers aren't rifle or pistol specific, the simple bureaucratic thing to do is to go with the MORE stringent requirements.
I bought several receivers before the 4473 changed and then you had to tell the dealer which way you wanted them to go, rifle or pistol.
Typical.
-David
Burnett and David nailed it. The problem you are runnning into is only an issue when dealing with stripped or 80% lowers. They changed the rules a few years ago where instead of declaring whether your lower was going to be a rifle or a pistol, they are now classified as other making them unlawful to purchase under 21. I complete lower however that left the factory as a rifle is perfectly acceptalbe.
I was challenged on another forum about this; called out if you will.
For documentation as the the validity of my argument, one needs to look no further than a Form 4473 as Blue Five pointed out.
http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-4473-1.pdf (http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-4473-1.pdf)
Page 2, Section B,
QuoteQuestion 18. Type of firearm(s) to be transferred(check or mark all that apply):
[ ] Handgun [ ] Long Gun (rifles or shotguns) [ ] Other Firearm (Frame, Receiver, etc. See Instructions for Question 18.)
Page 5, Section B,
QuoteQuestion 18. Type of Firearm(s): Check all boxes that apply. "Other"
refers to frames, receivers and other firearms that are not either handguns or
long guns (rifles or shotguns), such as firearns having a pistol grip that expel
a shotgun shell, or National Firearms Act (NFA) firearms.
If a frame or receiver can only be made into a long gun (rifle or shotgun), it is
still a frame or receiver not a handgun or long gun. However, they still are
"firearms" by definition. and subject to the same GCA limitations as any other
firearms. See Section 92 I(a)(3)(b). 18 U.S.C. Section 922(b)(1) makes it
unlawful for a licensee to sell any firearm other than a shotgun or rifle to any
person under the age of 21. Since a frame or receiver for a firearm. to include
one that can only be made into a long gun, is a "firearm other than a shotgun
or rifle." it cannot be transferred to anyone under the age of 21, Also, note
that multiple sales forms are not required for frames or receivers of any
firearms, or pistol grip shotguns, since they are not "pistols or revolvers"
under Section 923(g)(3)(a).
Hope this helps, and let's keep it legal kids. O0
Greg
eta: In my research, in reading the US Code mentioned on the 4473, it turns out that it is actually illegal to transfer/sell firearms to anyone under 21 at all. Exceptions are made for long guns (rifles and shotguns).
It has actually been this way since 1968.
In the past, people have been allowed to get away with calling a stripped lower on the 4473 because, of course you were going to build a rifle with an AR receiver. Why would you build a pistol? Who would want an AR pistol. Sheesh.
BUT, with the growth of AR pistols, ATF has begun to enforce what has been on the books for decades.
Bottom line, if it left the factory with a stock, it is a rifle and legal for 18 or over.
If it left the factory with a pistol buffer tube, it is a pistol and you have to be 21 or older.
If it left the factory with neither, it is other and you have to be 21 as well.