I just read, in the latest American Rifleman Magazine, that the military is woefully undertrained for war in Afghanistan (everything is at long range). I understand that there are Appleseeders that do help with this. I got my Rifleman badge last year and am willing to help in this endeavor from time to time.
Any info would be helpful.
I would be willing to travel for a chance to help train the military. I know at least two other instructors form St. Louis who would come with me.
BD
The best thing you can do to help is visit your local national guard armory and speak to whomever is in charge of training. Use the attached brochure if it helps and explain that we are interested in improving qualification scores for their troops and do so at no cost to them at all.
If you get a hit, contact Fred, Nickle and Hawkhavn immediately and the ball will get rolling.
Techres
Attachment below.
Yes! I have an armory down the street. I'll give it a shot.
BD
What State you in N.D.L.??? The first thing I would do is let your State coordinator know that you are very serious about making this happen in your State.
Then I would ask if there was already a ball in play... No biggie, but working in a well coordinated effort is key to getting big things rolling in your State.
If the SC has zilch in the works, offer to Volunteer to head this effort, and get it done.
If the SC already has a ball rolling, offer to Volunteer your tail off to make it happen.
Unfortunately, a lot of techniques taught at Appleseed don't translate very well to the M16/M4. Biggest hurdle is the sling use - since the sling swivel on the M16 is on the barrel, using the sling for support pulls the POI quite a bit to the left. Given the difference in sling tension in different positions you get a problem with your point of impact shifting all over the place. The trigger squeeze due to the ergonomics difference between a pistol grip and traditional rifle stock's pistol grip is also a little different - with a regular rifle stock you don't want to "drag wood" but with a lightweight rifle with a pistol grip you want to use as much of your finger as possible. A couple of differences in the body positions as well due to all the equipment and ability to move. I for one love the sitting position as a stable position to shoot from, but its not very practical to get into/out of in a two way range.
Natural point of aim and the rest of the fundamentals are a great thing to teach to soldiers, though. You would be amazed how many soldiers don't know what they are, or if they do don't know how to actually employ them. Teaching someone and drilling the six steps would be super beneficial to military shooters.
DocBach,
I understand your concerns and would take the liberty of commenting on same.
I was afforded the privilege of teaching marksmanship and history to National Guard troops from the 1st of the 178th Field Artillery Regiment - Swamp Fox Battalion, at Ft. Stewart, GA - about 450 men and a few women.
We worked with their standard issue Colt M4s (14.5" 1:7 Nato .556). We installed slings (mostly Vietnam era "silent slings") on all rifles and swapped batteries around until we got all of the CCO's up and running, as we were asked to teach them how to employ them.
We put them through a program of instruction most similar to a standard Appleseeds event - three strikes of the match inclusive. Despite many delays and obstacles, we raised their initial qual scores on the Army Alt C target by near 300% from the norm.
While there are definite differences from the M16 / M4 series of rifles to say an M1 Garand - the Army Qualification Test and the methods used, are still valid and well proven. At the beginning of each day, some of the men were "resistant" to the use of a sling, but by the end, many refused the rest (supported prone) for their qual targets, preferring instead to use the sling as they had learned.
We didn't invent the AQT - we just pass it on because it works. I shoot a GI, rack-grade, Colt M16 upper on an AR semi-auto lower in NRA HP competition and I use a sling. Nothing fancy like most - just a simple GI web sling with the cam adjustment. Can it pull the barrel and change the POI - you bet it can. Can I shoot better without? No way! I recently tried a M1A in competition and we're not allowed to use a sling in standing (Off-Hand) - not sure why, but it's the rule. It near took me off my feet (I am a little guy - 145lbs soaking wet). I am well accustomed to that rifle with a sling, but shooting it without was a big surprise for sure.
In short sir, don't sell that sling short - it can improve accuracy, even with a pistol-gripped, barrel-mounted sling swivel rifle, by as much as 80%.
As to being amazed about what the average soldier doesn't know about the fine tradition of marksmanship - I would have been prior to Ft. Stewart, but not any longer. Them boys was on their way to Afghanistan then, and many of them barely knew which end of the rifle was dangerous! On the last day of our week there, we worked with two QRF platoons and they had all done a tour in Iraq, so were a bit better acquainted with their M4s, but still benefited from the AQT for sure.
Sling adjustment on the M16/M4 just needs to be a bit lighter than something like a Garand, but you can still get it taught enough to relax, forward into it, and remove a lot of muscle input, which enhances long range accuracy greatly.
Thank you for your service sir. God bless you and keep your head down.
PH
As we have seen, doing an Appleseed event for active Army or Army National Guard units can work in some cases, and when the pieces come together it is a wonderful thing. But you have to have support from the right decision makers, and often there is insufficient buy-in, and you need to do something else.
Keep in mind, most soldiers don't like to admit they can't shoot, and for a civilian to waltz into a National Guard armory and tell the full-time Training NCO or Readiness NCO they want to help teach marksmanship to their soldiers is probably a little like a wife handing her husband a how-to book about being a more competent lover. She means well, but he's likely get defensive or dismiss the idea even if it's a good one.
If the focus of your efforts is on Rifle Marksmanship for soldiers, you will have a huge impact by taking a few NCO's to the range so they can come back to their soldiers as better subject matter experts. However, if your goal is to have Appleseed instructors directly teaching soldiers during an official event, you're going to need the commander to enthusiastically believe in it. You can get to him either directly or through the NCO's you have been taking to the range. Considering his limited budget and time constraints, he might jump at the chance to get squad-designated marksman level training by competent instructors. Perhaps he might like the idea of having the company with the highest percentage of soldiers qualify expert out of an entire battalion or brigade. But don't expect a commander to hand over his soldiers to Appleseed's capable instructors just because we want to help. I recommend a thoughtful approach that includes strategic contacts.
Another approach that is as much or more in line with appleseed's mission might be to focus on the fact that Appleseed is made up of a large group of patritic citizens who want to say thank you to the citizen soldiers in their local community as well as their families by providing a free event to support the Family Readiness Group. Every commander is required to have a FRG as a support group for soldiers' families during deployment, and more often than not the Commander's wife is in charge of it, or else the wife of another officer or senior NCO. The FRGs that are most effective during deployments are those that started and had momentum well in advance of the deployment.
Many of these FRG leaders have it dumped in their laps, and although they want to do a good job, they soon realize it is like herding cats; they wonder how they will be able to build a solid group from busy people who are so geographically dispersed. Many National Guard family members already resent that one weekend a month their soldier is taken away from them for drill, and they're reluctant to spend more time devoted to the Guard. However, if you told an FRG leader you want to provide nearly all the manpower to host an exciting, turn-key event that supported their mission of soldier and family readiness -- an event that would bring families together for a fun, recreational, memorable time that reinforces the history and significance of the contributions of citizen soldiers and their families, and also might improve their soldiers' ability to return home safely -- many would jump at the opportunity. And, since the FRG leaders would not have to run the event, they would be free to enjoy themselves, interact with the families and identify potential key leaders to help build the group.
Find out who the Family Readiness Group leaders are at the company and battalion levels, and let them know you would like to share with them an idea for a small event to help their FRG groups grow and develop momentum well before deployment comes around.
Camljr and 4Posterity and I are working with some FRG leaders in Southern California to put together an exclusive event for some National Guard units to pilot this idea. Meanwhile, we have a number of FRG leaders actively promoting the regularly scheduled Appleseed events to their soldiers and families.
PS: DocBach, I see you're rocking that new 79th IBCT patch with pride. "Dominate the fight!"
Soul MAn...Thank you for the wonderful input on the FRG. Not a concept I knew about, hence a good insight to the operations of the Guard.
Knowing volunteers are as scarce as hens teeth around the military, and probably more so with the associated families, this is a great idea to honor and gather military families together.
Wish I had known about this before the "Red Bull" deployment. (May 11th)
Quote from: DocBach on April 26, 2011, 02:51:44 PM
Unfortunately, a lot of techniques taught at Appleseed don't translate very well to the M16/M4. Biggest hurdle is the sling use - since the sling swivel on the M16 is on the barrel, using the sling for support pulls the POI quite a bit to the left. Given the difference in sling tension in different positions you get a problem with your point of impact shifting all over the place. The trigger squeeze due to the ergonomics difference between a pistol grip and traditional rifle stock's pistol grip is also a little different - with a regular rifle stock you don't want to "drag wood" but with a lightweight rifle with a pistol grip you want to use as much of your finger as possible. A couple of differences in the body positions as well due to all the equipment and ability to move. I for one love the sitting position as a stable position to shoot from, but its not very practical to get into/out of in a two way range.
Natural point of aim and the rest of the fundamentals are a great thing to teach to soldiers, though. You would be amazed how many soldiers don't know what they are, or if they do don't know how to actually employ them. Teaching someone and drilling the six steps would be super beneficial to military shooters.
If you haven't already, you should read the 'late' comments in the after action reports on Appleseeds military shoots. The military folks that have been taught via Appleseed have reported that it applies very well in the field, even with M-4's.
Quote from: SoulMan on April 26, 2011, 04:36:02 PM
PS: DocBach, I see you're rocking that new 79th IBCT patch with pride. "Dominate the fight!"
Well, honestly, I sort of liked the old 40th IBCT patch, but the new 79th one goes well with the 155th IBCT patch I wear as my SSIFWTS. 8)
As for the techniques taught by Appleseed - like I said, the six steps are crucial and a good way to ingrain the fundamentals into shooters, but a couple of things could be changed to better fit the M16/M4 family of rifles. I attended the AMU Squad Designated Marksman course and they taught us ways of holding the weapon that provide even more support than a sling that wouldn't be applicable with other weapon systems.
Pretty much, since the M16's barrel is non-free floating and any force on it including a tap can throw off POI (the example the instructors used was using a laser bore sighter in the bore then tapping the barrel and showing how it threw the location of the beam off by inches just across the classroom), we were taught at SDM to take off ALL interference from the barrel - we were taught to hold the weapon by the magazine well and rest the magazine on the ground to use as support.
I made a ppt class to teach to my platoon after graduating from SDM which I have gone over a couple times. My PLT had 13 out of the entire company's 25 experts thanks to employing the techniques I taught in the class.
However, if I was issued an M14 as an SDM weapon (rumor is they might when we deploy again, right now I have an M16A4 issued) you better believe I'd throw away whatever cool guy "high-speed" tactical sling they issued for a $12 cotton M1 Garand sling and I'd have that sucker looped tight to my bicep for support. Different guns are different beasts and thanks to some features of the design sling use in my experience has been detrimental to my accuracy. I originally learned how to use a sling in JROTC, but was taught to zero my weapon using sandbags in basic. Once I took the sandbags off and used my sling in the unsupported prone position (thinking I was being clever) my shots were all pulled to the left and I didn't know why because the Army didn't get that in depth in teaching us how to shoot.
One thing I think was incredibly beneficial about Appleseed was that they would teach the fundamentals and subjects like natural point of aim, then give you an exercise (shoot 2 rounds at this 1" square, reload, then shoot 3 rounds at this other one) to demonstrate to you how crucial it is to re-establish NPOA when you reload or acquire a new target. You shoot on average 500 rounds during the period, most of it is at practical exercises to demonstrate how the fundamentals work. Usually in the Army when we shoot we get 18 rounds to zero our weapons then 40 rounds to qualify and thats it - no rounds to play with, learn with or experiment with. Sometimes they give us rounds to "fam fire" which means to waste away (or as an instructor at the Appleseed I went to put it, "turn money into noise") at a target with no real instruction. I love how Appleseed shoots are free to soldiers and I'm 7th stepping at my unit trying to get some of my more motivated shooters to come to the next local one.
I've posted it up before here but I'll include my ppt for anybody who missed it.
DocBach,
First and foremost, thank you for your service! Secondly, thanks for the input, without it we cannot learn to serve servicemen better!!!
I agree with 99% of what you say, But on sling usage, it is about consistency, and knowing your Rifle. A Rifleman has that down. Not saying that You don't, but it is a very important part of the deal.
Consistency is the key to all accuracy, whether you are using a sling or not. When I was at WSMR, we caught some flak about having them take off the the optics and making them use slings. 100% HATED the slings on Day 1-3
At the the end of the week, 100% asked for the slings for their deployment. (one of the Instructors graciously donated Slings for all).
It is all about how the use of the sling is taught.... An M14, the tighter the better, An M16 variant.... A consistent "Snugness".
Is a "Consistent Snugness" easily obtained in a SHTF situation? Hell No!!!!! We teach a skill that fits certain situations... NOT ALL, but when it counts and you have the time to employ the skills, use it! It works!!!
If you know your rifle, you will know POI with and w/out Sling Tension, and that is what we strive for.
I hope that clears some things up, and again, thank you for your service O0
DocBach,
They send you back to the sandbox with an M14 you contact me and I'll send that cotton sling to you. I turned in my M16 for an obsolete M14 back in the day.
JG
Quote from: Garand69 on April 26, 2011, 09:07:10 PM
I agree with 99% of what you say, But on sling usage, it is about consistency, and knowing your Rifle. A Rifleman has that down. Not saying that You don't, but it is a very important part of the deal.
Consistency is the key to all accuracy, whether you are using a sling or not. When I was at WSMR, we caught some flak about having them take off the the optics and making them use slings. 100% HATED the slings on Day 1-3
If you know your rifle, you will know POI with and w/out Sling Tension, and that is what we strive for.
I hope that clears some things up, and again, thank you for your service O0
Part in red is what they kept hammering into us at SDM - pretty much, because varying sling tension isn't consistent they told us not to use them. I agree that a true Rifleman knows his weapon inside and out, knows where his POI is going to be for each range with what round he's shooting and knows his holds and clicks for wind and range. Unfortunately, due to time/budget/training limitations about 1% of the Army is a true Rifleman.... :'( so the Army Marksmanship Unit's solution was to just cut the sling out and potential for inconsistencies caused by its use (SHTF is a good example, when you got TIC and the adrenaline is going its hard to determine if you have the same sling tension you had when you were last at the range and got dope on your weapon) and use the magazine to support the weapon.
Quote from: Jungle George on April 26, 2011, 09:46:52 PM
DocBach,
They send you back to the sandbox with an M14 you contact me and I'll send that cotton sling to you. I turned in my M16 for an obsolete M14 back in the day.
Appreciate the offer. And thank you for your service in Vietnam. Funny thing is that the M14s they issue today are just arsenal rebuilds of the old M14s they packed in warehouses - it wouldn't be too crazy thinking that some joe traded out his M16 for YOUR "obsolete" M14 in the past couple years!
Out of curiosity: What level of accuracy is the SDM going for?
SDM aims to achieve a shooter gets a first round hit out to 600 meters. Targets were 18x40" 300m+, 18"x18" for targets closer than 300m, so about 3 MOA.
George, that is the coolest picture ever. It makes me proud to know you and proud to own an m14!
While I'm a relative newbie to the forum as far as posting goes, I am not when it comes to shooting in combat. Just my two cents: Don't sweat the equipment. Concentrate on the training.
What Appleseed teaches may not be applicable in some combat conditions, but there are situations in which it is appropriate. It's another tool in the toolbag.
Besides, you can never go wrong studying the fundamentals.
Maybe the thing to do is to actively seek out members of the military and invite them to a shoot. Before I retired last September I had two young guys who worked for me who were in the guard or reserve. One or the other was slated to go to Afghanistan sometime this year. My thinking is to get them involved and then offer to do their unit.
I my opinion the M 14 was the best battle rifle the US ever made and it had a short life in the service as the military knew we were going to be firing a lot of full auto in the jungle, as most of the time you couldn't see 20 meters and we were taking sound shots at the AK's, so everyone used the spray and pray method. So the brass figured you could carry twice as much ammo. The problem was 5.56 don't cut brush very well and we had one take five rds and run 200 meters away waiting in ambush, fortunatley for us he bleed out before we got there.
I shot my 14 on full auto and it never jammed. I carried 8 mags on my belt and one in the rifle plus several more boxes in my rucksack. All match ammo, it was well worth the extra weight.
I trained in basic with the 14 and then the 16 in AIT in 1969 and it slowly got fazed out. They then cut them up and sold what parts were left, good thing for us because mine has GI parts in it. Now the Govt. is slowly bringing them back because the 16 just can't make those extra meters down range.
If you use a sling set it were it works good for you, site it in and mark the sling with a felt tip marker, problem solved. We didn't use slings in the jungle as we were always moving our rifles to get through the bush.
JG
Jungle George,
What Brumley said!! Very proud to know you sir!!!!
Ratchett
Awh, I was a just draftee just trying to stay alive. These guys today are the real deal ( I would say heros but they would tell you their all dead) They signed up and keep going back, that is some great Americans.
Thats why we want to train them to be the best shots possible.
JG
JG,
Roger that. The time I spent at Ft Stewart stands as one of the best uses of my time to date. I have followed the soldiers we worked with (we all have) and have prayed many times for their safe and speedy return.
"Men sleep peacefully, only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their part" (another George)
Quote from: mac66 on April 27, 2011, 06:52:33 PM
Maybe the thing to do is to actively seek out members of the military and invite them to a shoot. Before I retired last September I had two young guys who worked for me who were in the guard or reserve. One or the other was slated to go to Afghanistan sometime this year. My thinking is to get them involved and then offer to do their unit.
You've got the right idea, mac66! Make 'em instructors, and they'll bring what they learned to their units. They'll invite their buddies to shoots, and soon you'll be offered an introduction to their commander, who wants to meet the people who are making his unit look so good with so many joe's qualifying Expert!
Sorry guys for not checking the original post in such a long time, there are 23 responces to this so I'll try to get back to as many as possible.
First. The article that triggered my question was mostly refering to Afghanistan. Not being in the military or ever having gone over there at all, let alone in combat I'll have to take the author's word for it. Anyway, my understanding is that in Iraq the combat was often CQB (Close Quarters Battle) and therefore a lot of what Appleseed is teaching would appear to not apply (speaking mostly to the three (3) position shooting) . In Afghanistan evidently a lot of the battle is out beyond 300 yards and is often way out to 500 yards. Target aquistion, sight alignment etc. are now extremely important.
Secondly. Again I'm not in the military so I can't say this first hand, however my understanding is that the military doesn't have the budget, Lake City (and Industry in general) doesn't have the capacity, and they don't have the personell to train the GIs the way they neet to be trained.
So that's the background on the request. I'll contact the State Coordinator and see if anything is going on.
As for where I'm located, I'm in Michigan. If anyone has any info I would be greatful.
At least in Michigan it is going to take more instructors to reach out to the military. The instructors are spread pretty thin right now and I get the impression that the emphasis is to grow the program into more venues around the state. Perhaps once it gets running in more places it will get the attention of National Guard and Reserve groups.
I would say that active military is one of the least tapped resources going if we want to expand the program, and I can say from very personal experience, that there are no more patriotic Americans than the sort that I met at Ft. Stewart.
We have a lot of empty spaces on firing lines nationwide and I can think of no better folks to fill them than our men and women in the National Guard. O0