Awesome idea! Check it out:
http://www.2ndamendmenttv.com/videos/miscellaneous/convert-bulk-22-into-match-grade.html
And here's the gauge:
http://www.championshooters.com/store/product.php?productid=779&cat=279&page=1
Try it. Let the rest of us know if this idea worked for you.
Sounds like it just might!
I tried one of those headspace gauges many years ago. The results were inconclusive. Could have been muscling, natural poit of aim, or trigger control.
My latest reading on making less expensive .22 ammo shoot well involves weighing each cartridge on a reloading scale.
The cartridges that are just a bit light, might be that way because of a bit less powder. If it's not powder and turns out to be less priming compound, lighter case or lighter bullet all of those factors will increase the the area for the powder to burn in and lower pressures.
Either or both methods, weighing, or mesuring headspace, will only be of value if you start with fairly good ammo.
The ammo manafactures know what they are about, cheap bulk pack ammo is not up to quality standards of their flagship brands.
Several factors can be involved, worn machinery allowing another thousandth of play, priming compound that just didnt fill the rim properly, a lot of powder that didnt flow quite as smooth as it should.
They test constantly and lower quality lots of ammo sell for less.
Seems like a lot of work for not much return. If I'm shooting AQT's at 25m I personaly don't care if the hole looks like Mickey Mouse. For big game huntin in the garden (rabbits and them bushy tailed rats) I have been using the same brick of CB Caps for the last decade. Probibly last this one too. I have the come ups written on the box.
If I decided to enter a NRA, CMP...ect. match I would just break down and buy a brick of the match grade.
Rifleman = Rack Grade Rifle + Surplus ammo + 210
There's an old saying "you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear", and it truly fits here.
If you want better ammo, buy Federal Champion instead of Federal 550 round bulk pack (and I don't recommend this, until you're at or real near the 210 mark, or better). If you buy decent ammo, and want to sort it into batches, then weigh and gage it.
But, few of us have .22 rifles that can actually see the benefit to it. A 6-8 MOA shooter certainly will see no benefit, and a 4 MOA shooter may not see a benefit.
QuoteBut, few of us have .22 rifles that can actually see the benefit to it. A 6-8 MOA shooter certainly will see no benefit, and a 4 MOA shooter may not see a benefit.
For Clodhopper's applications, there's benefit to it. Most of us are not Clodhopper.
Good info Firewall. Thanks
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buy a box of the bulk ammo (500, etc. rounds) and a box of 50 rounds (even if from the same maker) and shoot groups with both and see if there is a difference.
My dad swears up and down the 50 round box stuff not only shoots better groups than the bulk pack but also is more reliable. Considering he uses his old Savage Model 29 to head shoot squirrels he's seen/done a lot with .22 ammo.
My .22 is important for practice but if anyone knows any way to increase the accuracy of bulk/ surplus .308 that would be great- right now the most important is KD practice- but would weighing each round be good for that also?
Quote from: FreedomV on March 30, 2011, 01:23:33 PM
My .22 is important for practice but if anyone knows any way to increase the accuracy of bulk/ surplus .308 that would be great- right now the most important is KD practice- but would weighing each round be good for that also?
Not really. Again, "you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear".
USGI M80 Ball, the problem is the bullet itself.
If you want good quality stuff, but don't want to pay $30+ a box (20) for it, reload it yourself.
If you're gonna shoot a lot, and need absolute reliability just get the Mini-Mags...[$.06/rd]
If you're ok with cleaning after 300-ish rounds to maintain reliability; get CCI Blazer.[$.03/rd]
If you're ok with cleaning after 300-ish rounds to maintain accuracy; get Federal brick.[$.03/rd]
The bulk packs these days seem to be just about the same amount anyway...
About the most you'd likely save is $.01/rd - I'd rather drop $5 then sort through 500rds of .22lr.
But then again, I'm not in a competition and my life doesn't depend on .5 MOA accuracy with .22lr.
I'll have to try the Federal Champion, though.
Weighing rounds won't guarantee consistancy, but it may give you a good idea of the mfg's quality control in regards to that lot. It probably wouldn't be a bad idea if you thought that particular lot/mfg was acting rather irratic.
Has anyone here tryed the Paco Kelly's "Ac'rzr Tool' for 22lr?
I looked into the Paco Kelly tool but it is not recommended for autoloaders so I lost interest. My original thought was to try to improve the accuracy of my CMMG converter in my AR. I would be good for things like the Ruger convertable Single-Six where you are compromising with a barrel made for .22WRM.
Have tried the Paco Kelly ACU'RZR tool. Works fine in DW revolver and bolt action rifle. Ruger 10/22 would not reliably feed modified bullets.
CCI mini mags and T22 are my only test cases so far. More difficult than expected to achieve bullet nose reshape. Takes quite a bit of tapping on the tool. Need to do more scientific test, but did appear to improve groups a bit. Probably can improve cheap ammo, but not to match level.
for what its worth,,,
when out of state a few years back watching a young man shoot he shot very well but got in his own way when it came to the AQT,, so I handed him some Furgal Washatoniean Match Grade ammo ??? ( cci Blazer from a brick of it) and low and behold his score went up :cool2: the funny thing is he had been using match grade ammo before the blazer ::) I have knowen a small group that will use blazer @25meters to shoot empty .30 case's (nonreloadable one's) how good of ammo do you really need for the AQT ?,,,don't complacate things go out to the Range and shoot O0 :cool2:.
YMMV
Wade
Currently, my rifle and ammo combo shoots better then I do most of the time. I have a fancy 10/22 with lots of aftermarket stuff (In fact, the only things factory are the receiver and the trigger guard), so I can use Federal Champion bulk and still get sub 2 MOA. Most of the time, (unless it's an unusually good day) i only shoot 2-3.
Thanks Firewall !! I'll take all the help I can get.
Quote from: Wade on July 17, 2011, 02:42:36 AM
for what its worth,,,
when out of state a few years back watching a young man shoot he shot very well but got in his own way when it came to the AQT,, so I handed him some Furgal Washatoniean Match Grade ammo ??? ( cci Blazer from a brick of it) and low and behold his score went up :cool2: the funny thing is he had been using match grade ammo before the blazer ::) I have knowen a small group that will use blazer @25meters to shoot empty .30 case's (nonreloadable one's) how good of ammo do you really need for the AQT ?,,,don't complacate things go out to the Range and shoot O0 :cool2:.
YMMV
Wade
I love FWMG ammo. ^-^ I buy it by the case. I am going to try that on a couple guys I know who have been hovering around the 200 mark. I think they are just psyched out that they can't break the 210 barrier.
There is a saying on the rimfirecentral.com forums. "Every gun is a law onto itself." Meaning you have to spend time with your gun, ammo, and bench to find what combination works. You can have two guns. Same make and model. Relatively close in serial number. One will like one ammo while another will like another. It just is what it is. Prime example is when I gave Remington Target a try. Didn't do too bad in the 10/22 semi-auto but stunk in the CZ452 bolt gun.
I've spent time at the chrono with rimfire also. Kills time while the centerfire guns cool off and the cleaning solvent dries. CCI and Federal generally have decent standard deviation numbers while Remington, uh ... not so much. A low SD means that velocity variations from shot to shot will be low which aids in accuracy. And while you're trying out different ammo give some of the lessor known brands a try. I've had good luck with Fiocchi, Wolf, SK, and Aguila. Wolf Match Target and Match Extra is the same as SK Standard Plus and Rifle Match.
Shooting groups off the bench at 50 feet the stuff I've tried so far has averaged groups from 0.112" to 0.652". Clean barrel. Shoot one 5 shot group for fouling. Then five 5 shot groups. Average those five groups.
So what do I use in MY guns?
Ruger 10/22 with Adams and Bennet barrel and lots of other stuff changed or modified - Eley Target when the bull is the size of a pinpoint. For AS I go with the second best. Federal AutoMatch.
CZ452. Took it out of the box. Cleaned it - Fiocchi Match Training. If I can find 10 round mags at a decent price I want to try an AS shoot with it.
Ellis1958, The only source I have found for 10 round CZ mags is CZ-USA. About $32.00 if I remember. We have 3 CZ rifles (452FS, 452S and 512) and they seem fine for Appleseed. I use the 5 round mag for the 2 and the 10 round mag for the 8 in the AQT. Keeps me from getting them confused.
Pardon the unasked question, but what does rimfire rim thickness have to do with accuracy?
Rim thickness measuring devices were marketed with the explanation that head space could be determined, and sorted by knowing the rim thickness.
The thought was that by sorting and shooting all the cartridges with equal rim thicknesses together more uniformity could be achieved.
I tried it many years ago but results were inconclusive.
The six steps following solid position. and natural point of aim on target gave more useful results.
the old pricey rim thickness gauge is sitting in a drawer somewhere around here gathering dust.
Since the .22 LR is a rimfire, thickness of the rim affects ignition. Ignition affects accuracy.
Now, to actually make use of that requires an extremely accurate rifle, optics and shooting the rifle from a rest (sand bags).
Here's the deal on most of this, and I've mentioned it several times.
1. You can't make a silk purse (match ammo) from a sow's ear (bulk ammo).
2. Almost all .22 ammo is easily capable of shooting well within 4 MOA.
3. You will get more benefit from working on the basics than improving your ammo, with very few exceptions (there is some centerfire ammo out there that just isn't good).
I tried weighing my .22 ammo on a micro scale I found many different weights, and decided to break them down into 3 groups the first group was 3.33g.> the second was 3.34g and 3.35 the first group composed of 3.31-3.33g I broke up about 250 rounds. Shot them all at and it did seem to get rid of the "fliers" but still made quarter sized groups at 25 yards. I plan to try this again with another brand of bulk ammo and see if it shoots any better. If it does not I will declaire shenanigans on this process, it took me about an hour to seperate the ammo so even if it does pan out and work unless it doesn't do better than a quarter at 25 I don't know if it's worth the time to seperate.