Project Appleseed

All of my kids are attending AS shoots with the exception of the toddler and my 7 yr old daughter.  She's too small for a 10/22 and even the Marlin 795 (plus she's probably better off with a single shot right now).  My question to the experience of the folks on this board is whether it's better for shooting 'seeds to have a rifle that cocks the bolt automatically (like the Savage Cub) or manually (like a Crickett)?  She has already had a lot of safety training, so it seems that the extra step of cocking would slow her down during the different COF.

Thanks in advance for all your help!  O0

Charlie
tn_dadx5

yeah, I have 5 kids!

From my experience in dealing with children at Seeds, manually cocking bolts are the easiest for them to shoot.  Since she will have had safety training prior to the shoot, IMHO, this would be the best route to take.  That being said however, a manual cocking rifle (such as a Cricket) would work as well, but it is defineitely a hindrance to most trying to complete the COF in the allotted time; that extra step slows most children (and adults) down.  If I had the option, then I'd go with the auto-cocker.

---GF

TND,
   Ruger (who will sell you their products @ appx. 1/3 off msrp when you earn the red hat) makes a compact 10.22, the CRR model...might be good idea to find one in a store and see how close to fitting daughter it comes, as is longer-term solution and way more versatile than the other possiblilities...Henry also makes a bolt-action .22 (and they also give instructor discounts)...both worth a look.
Excelsior,
madMark

TND, I have worked with several young ones (5-8) and most of them are small so they were using a Cricket. They normally don't get all of their shots off. However, they all have had a lot of fun, and have come back to multiple events. Because of size, Cricket was a better option for them than a 10/22. And for a few, even the Cricket was too big. I know that the idea of sticking some duct tape on the Cricket's stock with the sticky side out and sticking rounds to it has helped some to where they can shoot almost as fast as the adults do. Also, if you do go the route of a Cricket, Techres made up something interesting that he posted about here: http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=18770.0

So, my experience of shooters in that age group is mostly with the Cricket. I do have some experience with young shooters shooting 10/22s and some of them do really well, others just shoot as fast as they can... If the 10/22 is not to big for your daughter, I would guess she'd be one that would do really well with it.


The middle child of 5! 

I've bought a few spare 10/22 stocks on eBay and cut them for the youngsters.

I think the Cricket sized (and weight) rifle is a good choice for the real youngsters.

I am a big fan of the cricket rifle because of it's size and accuracy.  The slowness of load is not that big a deal for small ones who are mostly happy to just be "joining in" with family.  Of course it's fail point is speed of loading which is less the cocking mechanism and more so getting the round in the chamber.  Even that is a great tool to teach kids the steps of how a rifle works.

Quote from: techres on March 08, 2011, 05:28:12 PM
I am a big fan of the cricket rifle because of it's size and accuracy.  The slowness of load is not that big a deal for small ones who are mostly happy to just be "joining in" with family.  Of course it's fail point is speed of loading which is less the cocking mechanism and more so getting the round in the chamber.  Even that is a great tool to teach kids the steps of how a rifle works.

The crickett is a good starter and my youngest (9 at the time) used one for 3 shoots.  After his older brother I made rifleman, I cut the stock on my 795 down to the rear swivel stud and it had the same length of pull as the crickett and weighed about the same.  He shot a 201 with it first time out.  The child just has to know how to work whatever rifle they have.

Thanks for all your info, but I'm trying to decide if I want her to use and auto-cocker (Savage Cub) or manual-cocker (Crickett) as they both have a 12" LOP and 16" barrel.

Savage Cub.
If she is needs the extra step of manual cocking to prevent a ND she is not ready to shoot.

2cl

Quote from: TN_Dadx5 on March 08, 2011, 07:20:13 PM
Thanks for all your info, but I'm trying to decide if I want her to use and auto-cocker (Savage Cub) or manual-cocker (Crickett) as they both have a 12" LOP and 16" barrel.

Don't ignore the CZ 452 Scout.  Nice short length of pull, decent trigger, single shot adaptor or 5 or 10 round mags for when they upgrade.  Sadly for the girls no longer made in pink.  We got some razzing from the gun shop when we bought one for our daughter but the proof target in the box shut them down.  It was a 5 shot postage stamp from 50 meters.  Suddenly it was "That's a mighty fine rifle you are getting there....."  It is a bit heavier than the Cricket, for us that was the deciding factor.

Thanks for all you input.  I went with the Savage Cub, I found a really good deal on one. 

To see what the others think, I put up a poll.

TnDadx5,

Another option you might consider in the future is the 10/22 in a Blackhawk stock (Aprox $90-100.) Rifle is very light wt (weighed btwn 2-3 #s on home scale) compared to a 10/22 or the 10/22 in a Tapco stock. It has the pistol grip for the coolness factor kids seem to like ;D It also has the collapsible stock with shortest length at 32.5" from end of butt stock to tip of barrel. Offers room to grow with child or could be used by older sibling.

I have 4 LTRs 10/22s in wood, tapco, and blackhawk stocks plus the Marlin 795, I would use the Blackhawk for child age of your daughter. Just my .02, hope it helps.

Happy shooting to you and family! May we meet on the trail some day, til then....

In His Grip,
Ratchett

Well, the results of getting her the Savage Cub is what I was hoping for.  I got my first born son a cricket in .17 and he liked it but the need to pull to cock the rifle was slowing him down.  My daughter really likes the Cub and actually is getting good with it.  At 25m she is hitting milk jugs better than 60% of the time and is improving.  All my kids have gone though rifle safety and our own version of Appleseed events; they are very safety conscious.

I need to make one of those bullet holders that I think Techres made for his daughter that velcro to the side of the stock.  Once she gets good with the Cub and grows a little bit, I'll go with Nurse Ratchett's advice with the collapsible stock on a 10/22.  hopefully, by the time she's ready for that, they'll have one for the Marlin 795.

Thanks you all!

I'm sure I'm among few, but I don't care for the manual-cocking feature of the Cricket and similar "youth" rifles.  I've never seen it cause an accident, but have seen it cause trouble.

Specifically, what does the shooter do when he has a round chambered and the cocking knob back, when the "CEASE FIRE!" command comes?  He can't just flip the bolt handle up - he has to grasp the knob, pull the trigger, and gently lower the cocking knob before he can open the bolt and remove the live round from the rifle.
That action, preformed by clumsy, greasy little fingers, scares the tar out of me.

How have others handled this?  Those rifles are common enough, and the rifles are popular enough among instructors, that there must be a way I haven't learned.

Quote from: didactic on March 26, 2011, 08:58:24 AM
I'm sure I'm among few, but I don't care for the manual-cocking feature of the Cricket and similar "youth" rifles.  I've never seen it cause an accident, but have seen it cause trouble.

Specifically, what does the shooter do when he has a round chambered and the cocking knob back, when the "CEASE FIRE!" command comes?  He can't just flip the bolt handle up - he has to grasp the knob, pull the trigger, and gently lower the cocking knob before he can open the bolt and remove the live round from the rifle.
That action, preformed by clumsy, greasy little fingers, scares the tar out of me.

How have others handled this?  Those rifles are common enough, and the rifles are popular enough among instructors, that there must be a way I haven't learned.

I remember that.  I would just have them ground the rifle and raise their hand for an instructor to do it.

My 6 year old son Walker has completed 2 Appleseeds so far.  He's been very safe with his rifle.  We put him in the "designated sniper" postion.  Prone with a rest all the time, with 10 rounds in 1 mag on transition stages, and he doesn't have any problems completing the course of fire.  He makes the rifle safe, himself, charges it, the whole ball of wax...but all from prone.

He's shooting a CMMG dedicated 22LR AR15.  CMMG dedicated upper.  CMMG lower with sandard FCG.  Magpul CTR stock.  Eotech 552 for a sight.

I've found that an AR with collapsible stock can be adapted to more shooters with short arms than any other setup, except maybe for the 10/22 with the AR-type stock.

We had a woman at our last shoot in Raton with exceptionally short arms.  She couldn't get a good position with a standard 10/22 or my SamD youth-shortened 795.  We loaned her Walker's CMMG 22LR and it fit her like a glove.

-David
Edgewood, NM

Back in the days of rifle being to feed the family the children learned safety and marksmanship from their father's, grandfather's, uncles, etc.  Since the woods/fields are somewhat different than being elbow to elbow on a range (where all the targets in one direction and there are adults looking over their shoulder all the time) most folks went with single shot bolt action rifles for the youngsters.  Usually a borrowed one to start with.

Heaven forbid the safety rules aren't followed all the time but if they aren't at least there'd only be one round going off.

Most of the really good rifle marksmen we read about during our country's history learned to shoot with a single shot rifle. 

If one of my boys ever gets married and they decide to raise a family I'll have a couple old Winchester bolt action .22's to start them off on.  Their great grandfather's semi-auto .22's will be held in reserve to determine both interest and attitude prior to possibly becoming passed down to them.

They should really learn to walk before they learn to run.  If you know what I mean.