I've been working with my Mini 14 and I've discovered another serious problem that others may not be aware of (I've not run across this anywhere else). Mine is a 197 series, so take that into consideration, the newer models (580 series) may not be affected.
The first issue was that of group size. Mine was a 4 to 6 moa shooter initially. Simple mods, along with basic reloading methods (not bench rest precision), brought my groups down to 1 1/2 moa, and I was happy. ^:)^ Yep, that happy. I simply worked under the premise that I was dealing with barrel harmonics, and worked toward getting things to be consistent. However, I became suspicious of sling pressure affecting my group size (or I was loosing the skills that I've learned through AS). My test was simple - shoot a series of groups from prone with sling, then shoot from the bench. The results proved to be quite revealing in my opinion. Would you believe 8 1/2 moa shift in POI? :o The groups moved slightly right (~ 2 1/2 moa) and a big jump up (~8 1/4 moa).
My conclusion is simple: My Mini 14 is not a rifle I can trust in all situations. If I never shot using a sling, it might get the job done, but I don't think I'll be able to come up with a method of taming this beast, so we may soon part ways.
Question for others, especially for some of the AR-15 shooters - Does sling pressure affect your POI?
Sling pressure and position affect all rifles to a certain extent - some more than others.
If you zero from a bench, your prone/slung up POI will always shift - no matter what you're shooting.
Sometimes you will have a zero shift from prone to sitting - depending on your position and how you mount the rifle.
Along those same lines - I used to do load development from a bench, but now do it from prone with my match rifles, as my groups are actually smaller when I sling up. :cool2:
Go figure.
Quote from: wcmartin1 on March 07, 2011, 09:48:24 AM
Sling pressure and position affect all rifles to a certain extent - some more than others.
If you zero from a bench, your prone/slung up POI will always shift - no matter what you're shooting
I agree, but note the amount of POI shift I experienced - 8 1/2 MOA. IMO, that's way too much to be considered acceptable. I can't live with that. Most times I will shoot slung up, but I can envision situations that I might be shooting in a position that a sling is not practical, but is supported, and my POI vs POA will be unpredictable. For instance I'll wound, or miss, the coyote, which is not my intent.
Quote from: wcmartin1 on March 07, 2011, 09:48:24 AM
Along those same lines - I used to do load development from a bench, but now do it from prone with my match rifles, as my groups are actually smaller when I sling up.
Go figure.
I think the answer is in barrel harmonics. You essentially "stiffen" the barrel with the sling.
I think bull barrels and full floated barrels will be affected much less, if at all, which is part of the reason why I'm asking if others have observed/measured their shift in POI. I'm a firm believer in knowing your rifle. If I can't trust my rifle to do what I want in all situations, then I need to find one that I can trust. I was working on this mini with that intent, and was very happy with my progress until this point. Now it's time to reevaluate the project.
Quote from: Andre on March 07, 2011, 10:41:14 AM
Quote from: wcmartin1 on March 07, 2011, 09:48:24 AM
Sling pressure and position affect all rifles to a certain extent - some more than others.
If you zero from a bench, your prone/slung up POI will always shift - no matter what you're shooting
I agree, but note the amount of POI shift I experienced - 8 1/2 MOA. IMO, that's way too much to be considered acceptable. I can't live with that. Most times I will shoot slung up, but I can envision situations that I might be shooting in a position that a sling is not practical, but is supported, and my POI vs POA will be unpredictable. For instance I'll wound, or miss, the coyote, which is not my intent.
Quote from: wcmartin1 on March 07, 2011, 09:48:24 AM
Along those same lines - I used to do load development from a bench, but now do it from prone with my match rifles, as my groups are actually smaller when I sling up.
Go figure.
I think the answer is in barrel harmonics. You essentially "stiffen" the barrel with the sling.
I think bull barrels and full floated barrels will be affected much less, if at all, which is part of the reason why I'm asking if others have observed/measured their shift in POI. I'm a firm believer in knowing your rifle. If I can't trust my rifle to do what I want in all situations, then I need to find one that I can trust. I was working on this mini with that intent, and was very happy with my progress until this point. Now it's time to reevaluate the project.
Recent testing/load development after breaking in the barrel with a new M1A Super Match purchased for HP - NM 0.0595 hooded rear sight, NM 0.062 front sight, heavy match barrel, double-lugged receiver, glass bedded in a McMillan stock:
4.5 MOA zero shift at 200 yards bench vs. prone/slung up
2.5-3.0 MOA groups from the bench (unacceptable and very disappointing for this rifle) vs 1.0-1.5 MOA groups prone/slung up (that's more like it)
5 mph wind from 6 O'clock
Every rifle is different, but obviously this one wants to be shot with a sling.
YMMV
From Fred's Rifleman Series - Common Firing Line Errors
#10: Failure to use your sling
For over 100 years, the sling has been in military use as an aid to marksmanship. Because of the tendency of the M16 barrel to flex under sling pressure, the sling has been slighted in the last few decades. But make no mistake: the sling is one of the biggest aids to accurate shooting that you have, and you always have it with you, to carry the rifle. So, never fire a shot without the sling. Use the hasty sling for standing and anytime you're in a rush, or may need to move fast after firing a shot; and use the loop sling for prone and sitting when you have the time, but try to make sure your upper arm is padded to block muscle tremor and heartbeat, either with a shooting jacket or heavy clothing. It's hard to estimate how big a factor in accuracy the sling is. A minimum of 20%, going up to 80% or more. It will help in rapid fire, keeping your position tight, speeding your recovery for the next shot. The bottom line is, always use your sling - in every position, for every shot.
Quote from: Andre on March 07, 2011, 10:41:14 AM
I'm a firm believer in knowing your rifle.
AMEN, brother.
Find your own truth.
Standard AR-15s are affected by sling pressure. If your sling is attached to the barrel you can pull the barrel down.
There is a cure to the problem, it a free floated hand gaurd with sling attached to the hand gaurd.
I have a national match model AR, it is not affected by sling pressure.
That is not typical of the platform.
Quote from: Andre on March 07, 2011, 09:13:52 AM
I've been working with my Mini 14 and I've discovered another serious problem that others may not be aware of (I've not run across this anywhere else). Mine is a 197 series, so take that into consideration, the newer models (580 series) may not be affected.
The first issue was that of group size. Mine was a 4 to 6 moa shooter initially. Simple mods, along with basic reloading methods (not bench rest precision), brought my groups down to 1 1/2 moa, and I was happy. ^:)^ Yep, that happy. I simply worked under the premise that I was dealing with barrel harmonics, and worked toward getting things to be consistent. However, I became suspicious of sling pressure affecting my group size (or I was loosing the skills that I've learned through AS). My test was simple - shoot a series of groups from prone with sling, then shoot from the bench. The results proved to be quite revealing in my opinion. Would you believe 8 1/2 moa shift in POI? :o The groups moved slightly right (~ 2 1/2 moa) and a big jump up (~8 1/4 moa).
My conclusion is simple: My Mini 14 is not a rifle I can trust in all situations. If I never shot using a sling, it might get the job done, but I don't think I'll be able to come up with a method of taming this beast, so we may soon part ways.
Question for others, especially for some of the AR-15 shooters - Does sling pressure affect your POI?
I have an old Colt Sporter II lightweight. It has a pencil-thin barrel. I have noticed that on it, I get about 6MOA shift from sling tension, but ONLY as the rifle heats up. If it heats up without the sling on it, the POI stays consistent. If it heats up WHILE slung, several minutes of drift. It was actually quite frustrating for me until I figured out what was happening. We shoot at 20" steel a lot at 300 and 500. Hit hit hit hit hit hit hit hit miss miss miss miss miss *fiddle with sling* miss miss miss *frustration* *wait a while* hit hit hit hit hit.
It was maddening.
Quote from: clodhopper on March 07, 2011, 11:42:12 AM
Standard AR-15s are affected by sling pressure. If your sling is attached to the barrel you can pull the barrel down.
There is a cure to the problem, it a free floated hand gaurd with sling attached to the hand gaurd.
I have a national match model AR, it is not affected by sling pressure.
That is not typical of the platform.
Fulton Armory NM A2 - floated barrel with lead weight around the float tube and lead in the butt stock (the gun weighs 15 lbs) - still get about 1-1.5 MOA zero shifts when shooting from a bench vs. slung up in position, however the group sizes are about the same either way for this rifle (0.5-1.0 MOA) which I believe is a function of the lower recoil of 5.56 in this rifle compared to 7.62 in the M1A.
My M4gery AR does well enough and the heavy barrels seem to be immune from my experience. A free float barrel is awesome, but not necessary.
Thanks to all for the input so far; some interesting thoughts to chew on for a while. Wish I had the tighter groups when I sling up, but as far as AS is concerned I'm in good shape with the 2 MOA that I have (1 1/2 MOA bench). This is actually ok for my coyote concerns too, since I'm usually in contact at less than 150 yds. What I'll really have to get my head into is the practice of "always use your sling - in every position, for every shot." I'd like to do that, but I've had setups that I don't know how practical that was. This was prior to my attending an AS, so let's see if can get around this mental tripping point.
Another point I considered is moving my sling point from the gas block to the stock, but the stock is keyed into the block, so it's not a practical solution.
I guess I will continue my plans to shoot KD and maybe a regular QDAQT, but I'm still not happy about the big shift in POI.
Thanks all for reading my rambling - help me get on track here. :)
Jim
Can someone re-name this thread as
"Mini-14 MOA Groups" or something like that,
BEWARE leads one to believe TROUBLE / SAFETY ISSUES.
SOM
Quote from: R1sgx2 on March 07, 2011, 09:50:04 PM
Can someone re-name this thread as
"Mini-14 MOA Groups" or something like that,
BEWARE leads one to believe TROUBLE / SAFETY ISSUES.
SOM
..Good point Mark, I thought the same thing..
..................JW......................................
Quote from: Josey Wales on March 07, 2011, 10:11:41 PM
Quote from: R1sgx2 on March 07, 2011, 09:50:04 PM
Can someone re-name this thread as
"Mini-14 MOA Groups" or something like that,
BEWARE leads one to believe TROUBLE / SAFETY ISSUES.
SOM
..Good point Mark, I thought the same thing..
..................JW......................................
Didn't think about that :-[ - I don't know how to, but I'll see if I can find out ...
Quote from: clodhopper on March 07, 2011, 11:42:12 AM
Standard AR-15s are affected by sling pressure. If your sling is attached to the barrel you can pull the barrel down.
There is a cure to the problem, it a free floated hand gaurd with sling attached to the hand gaurd.
I have a national match model AR, it is not affected by sling pressure.
That is not typical of the platform.
Bingo. If this is a set up you have (or can aquire, if at all possible), then you shouldn't have any shifting problems due to pressure from the sling. I have an AR with heavy match-grade bull barrel with a free-float handguard, and I've never had an POI shifts. My impact point has always been the same regardless of how much pressure I'm putting on, whether I'm on the bench or in prone.
However, as with clodhopper's, mine is not a typical setup.
I've always had difficulty convincing my friends that they will get POI shift if the sight in on the bench and then go to field positions. No one wants to believe the obvious (I think) differences.
I used to have a Mini 14. If you are getting 1.5 MOA out of it, you should consider yourself very fortunate. I could never get better than 4-6 MOA out of mine, and eventually sold it because of the frustration. Can't comment on the newer series.
Free floated barrels? Pretty good idea from my experiences, but the heavy barrels seem to deflect less anyway.
Get the coyotes.
RR
The above caught my attention because I own two Mini 14s. I did not know I was supposed to accuracy problems until I started looking around on the internet for information about Appleseed and rifles about a year and a half ago. I could routinely hit apples, oranges, clay targets, coke cans and similar size objects at a hundred yards with either. I did not buy them as target rifles or even for hunting so I was blissfully ignorant. After all they were advertised back then as the world's most expensive plinking rifles. One is a 180 Series manufactured the first year they were made available to the public. It does not get shot much anymore. The other is a 184 Series manufactured 1985. Recently I became interested in setting up the 184 Series rifle for Appleseed so I changed out the sling swivels and added a loop sling. My goal is to shoot 220 or above with a center fire and from full distance before taking on a Red Hat. The Mini is cheaper to shoot than my M1A so it is my choice for 25 meters. Reading the above got my curiosity up. After years of hunting and informal shooting/target practice I am well aware of POI shifts from shooting off a bench and sand bags to shooting un-supported with or without a sling, but 8 MOA is a bunch. I headed to the Hunt Club for some experimenting. First of all I don't remember ever having shot the Mini from a bench. I probably have at some time but just don't remember. The rifle had not been shot since it's last cleaning so I got straight to it. Off the bench and sand bags it was grouping 2.5 - 3 MOA but a little low & left. After sight adjustments I was wearing out the center of a 2" bull. OK now down to prone and slung up snug. The groups went to 1.5 - 2 MOA but shifted 10 MOA high and 2.5 MOA right, amazing. Not a real problem for me since I don't plan on shooting my Mini 14s from a bench. Just corrected the sights and I am good to go but that sure is a drastic shift. My guess is that since the front sling swivel is attached directly to the gas block which is clamped to the barrel, using the sling puts direct pressure on the barrel. I am thinking of moving the front swivel to the forestock to see if that changes anything. The real lesson I learned was totally unrelated to the above. After about 20 rounds I started having failure to feed problems. First I thought it was the aftermarket 10 round mags. When I shifted to prone I also changed to 20 round Ruger mags. The problem continued. I was having to cycle almost every round manually. I was more than a little perplexed. I could manually cycle a full mag but the rifle would not cycle when fired. It ejected fine but would not load. Hmmmm, well the thought struck me just how clean was the rifle? I had thoroughly cleaned the bore, chamber, bolt, receiver and trigger group prior to putting it up after the last time I shot it. Obviously the bolt was not traveling rearward far enough to pick up the next round from the magazine. Best guess is not enough gas pressure. Hmmmmm, I had not cleaned the gas block/piston (actually I can't remember ever cleaning the gas block and piston). After a good cleaning of the gas system she ran like a champ. When you are cleaning your Mini14 don't overlook the gas system. On the plus side I got in some good ball an dummy practice.
Craig
Copy on what Larry (Reformed Redneck) said...never have owned one personally (have personal issues with .223 cal) but watched several "buddies" fight thru theirs.....they usually ended up going to auction....if you are getting 1.5MOA, then you have been blessed.... O0 :~ ;)
Enjoy!
LLP
Quote from: Andre on March 07, 2011, 09:13:52 AM
My conclusion is simple: My Mini 14 is not a rifle I can trust in all situations. If I never shot using a sling, it might get the job done, but I don't think I'll be able to come up with a method of taming this beast, so we may soon part ways.
Another conclusion is that you are using too tight of a sling... If the sling is tight enough to give you an 8 minute shift then it is too tight. I have used a sling just wrapped around the end of the stock and barrel with a rifle that did not have a sling swivel and held it from slipping with my support hand. I was still able to maintain a 3MOA group. Take the sling off and try prone and sitting. Without a sling will give you a better indication of what you need to work on with your support of the rifle and NPOA. Put rounds down range and work on your technique. When you place the sling back on you should find that you need less tension to maintain your position and NPOA.
As for the 8moa shift; my money would be on position rather than sling.
I've seen a 5moa differnce between my prone and seated positions - with all else the same.
I've also seen my AR - zero'ed for me with or w/o sling handed to a Nat'l Guard friend of mine, who then proceded to shoot decent groups about 10moa high.
Truth is, if you're in position right, you're putting as much up pressure with your hand as the sling is pulling down. If the barrel is supported by the stock(as I inerpret your discription), it's not even going to make much difference, you won't have enough leverage to move it that much.
Though, it will affect it some, but so does bending the stock enough to alter the position of the reciever.
v=direction and force applied.
v v
-------| -------|
^ ^
Aftermath
P.S. I'll let a physics major thoroughly explain my concept here. %)
I heard a rumor, that, years ago there were high speed photos that showed the barrel whip on the mini-14 of the series you are using. The barrel on that rifle is very lightweight, as that helped make it a fun and lightweight carbine. Two companies came out with a device like the Accu-strut that you use to put a type of strut on the forward portion of the barrel to stiffen it and make the whip more consitant and smaller on the mini-14 without buying a bull barrel. The AMTU came up with a free float tube and a heavier barrel on their M16 match rifles in the early 90's when they changed from the M14 in order to help with the sling and stiffen.
Years ago i used a Mini-14 for a season of NRA Highpower since I was a broke high school kid and couldn't afford an AR. The Mini-14 was ok for the slow fire strings, but my rapid fire strings sucked due to the thin little barrel that heated up fast and and it had a great deal of barrel whip. My rapid fire groups literally resembled more of a shotgun pattern at 200 and 300yds.
Another interesting experience with the Mini-14 while shooting Highpower competition occurred after the first time I gave it a good cleaning and field stripped it and put it back together after a few matches. The next match I shot the rifle in after the field strip and cleaning I wasn't even on the target board. I was approximately 8ft off center and I had never touched the sights, the shift occurred from just dis-assembly and re-assembly. Never again did I strip the rifle down until after the Highpower season was over, and then I made sure I had an AR before the next season rolled around.
My Mini-14 was super reliable, but it certainly wasn't accurate, at least not for sustained rapid fire.
You can see massive differences in zero from supported to non-supported, with sling usage and pressure the same for both.
I have been there/done that with the M16 series (AR-15) platform for years, both the A1 version (1-12 twist, 55 grain bullet) and the A2 & A4 version (1-7 twist, 62 gr bullet). Got at least 8 MOA shift, at an angle.
It's the forend pressure from the support. This can be duplicated in reverse with a too tight sling as well.
Sling should be snug, not tight.
First, a quick recap of info:
rifle as received = 4 to 6 moa
added a home made barrel strut from the gas block to the front sight/now flash hider = 2 moa
using hand loads = 1.5 moa
(working on new loads this week has produced sub moa to 1 moa)
therefore, accuracy of the rifle is not an issue
While putting my new rifleman skills to practice, I started chasing my zero (working between bench for load testing, to slung positions during practice). I first blew it off as scope problems, but when I switched to irons, I had the same issues. That's when I set out to find the real problem, which is the 8 1/2 moa poi shift, and therefore the subject of this post.
fepowered: I understand your suggestion, but I don't think I'm using too much pressure. If you look at the Mini's barrel, there's not much in the way of "stiffness" in Ruger's design, so I think that it's too sensitive to external pressures. However, I may play around with sling pressure still. My main stumbling block now is to "always shoot with a sling." I sometimes use my old, pre-Appleseed shooting techniques and set up not using the sling. That's when I get myself messed up. I now consider it more a mental challenge - not a hardware challenge.
Which transitions to Aftermath's comments: I think I understand the mechanics (physics) of the situation, and that's part of what I consider the mental challenge. The first part is to always use the sling, the second part becomes trying to make the adjustments needed between positions, including consistency in sling pressure. Isn't this part of the Rifleman's quest?
Spartan (& Nickle may be interested here, too): "barrel whip", which I refer to as barrel harmonics, is a big part of the Mini's challenge. I noted above that I added a home made strut which significantly improved it's accuracy. At this time, I'm playing with different powders for my loads. The method of my madness is in trying to "adjust" the barrel harmonics by powder burn rate. Ruger doesn't put any restrictions on burn rate as you have with the M1 Garrand, and I haven't found any yet that destroy the hardware (and hope not to, either). :cool2:
Quote from: boltgun71 on March 24, 2011, 07:59:13 AM
Another interesting experience with the Mini-14 while shooting Highpower competition occurred after the first time I gave it a good cleaning and field stripped it and put it back together after a few matches. The next match I shot the rifle in after the field strip and cleaning I wasn't even on the target board. I was approximately 8ft off center and I had never touched the sights, the shift occurred from just dis-assembly and re-assembly. Never again did I strip the rifle down until after the Highpower season was over, and then I made sure I had an AR before the next season rolled around.
WOW! I've been cautions about this, but I'll be extra vigilant now.
Thanks to all!!!
Jim
The M1 Garand issue is all about port pressure. Seeing that the M1 draws it's gas from the muzzle, powder burn rate makes a major difference in port pressure, unlike newer designs (like the M14, M1 Carbine and Mini-14).
That being said, I'll still stick to my recommendation of staying to medium speed powders for the .30-06, .308/7.62 NATO and .223/5.56 NATO, like 4895, BL-C #2 and Winchester 748 (and others in the same range). They are about optimum anyways for the .223/5.56 NATO.
Quote from: Nickle on March 25, 2011, 12:59:57 PM
The M1 Garand issue is all about port pressure. Seeing that the M1 draws it's gas from the muzzle, powder burn rate makes a major difference in port pressure, unlike newer designs (like the M14, M1 Carbine and Mini-14).
That being said, I'll still stick to my recommendation of staying to medium speed powders for the .30-06, .308/7.62 NATO and .223/5.56 NATO, like 4895, BL-C #2 and Winchester 748 (and others in the same range). They are about optimum anyways for the .223/5.56 NATO.
While I can't say that I fully understand the issues with the M1 Garrand, I am aware of keeping the pressures within it's design window. My theory with the Mini 14 is to look for bolt cycle timing that upsets the barrel harmonics the least, therefore I'm slowly working with powders of different burn rates. At this point Varget seems to shine with both 55gr and 62gr bullets, and H335 is my backup. 4064 works well, but I can't throw consistent charges with my measure (guess I'll get serious someday and spend the bucks for one that will). Maybe I ought to back off this project a bit and spend more time studying my history. :)
Thanks for your insight.
Quote from: Andre on March 24, 2011, 09:35:05 PM
I've been working with my Mini 14 and I've discovered another serious problem that others may not be aware of (I've not run across this anywhere else). Mine is a 197 series, so take that into consideration, the newer models (580 series) may not be affected.
up (~8 1/4 moa).
fepowered: I understand your suggestion, but I don't think I'm using too much pressure. If you look at the Mini's barrel, there's not much in the way of "stiffness" in Ruger's design, so I think that it's too sensitive to external pressures. However, I may play around with sling pressure still. My main stumbling block now is to "always shoot with a sling." I sometimes use my old, pre-Appleseed shooting techniques and set up not using the sling. That's when I get myself messed up. I now consider it more a mental challenge - not a hardware challenge.
Most 180 series newer generation have a much larger diameter barrel at the gas block which then tapers towards the muzzle some early ones had the smaller diameter. The "standard" is just as thick as the target model at the gas block. One thing I would try is to get an aftermarket stock and install a swivel stud into the stock before the gas block. There are some stiff laminated wood stocks out there and heavier synthetic than stock.
Quote from: fepowered on March 26, 2011, 05:18:58 PM
Quote from: Andre on March 24, 2011, 09:35:05 PM
I've been working with my Mini 14 and I've discovered another serious problem that others may not be aware of (I've not run across this anywhere else). Mine is a 197 series, so take that into consideration, the newer models (580 series) may not be affected.
up (~8 1/4 moa).
fepowered: I understand your suggestion, but I don't think I'm using too much pressure. If you look at the Mini's barrel, there's not much in the way of "stiffness" in Ruger's design, so I think that it's too sensitive to external pressures. However, I may play around with sling pressure still. My main stumbling block now is to "always shoot with a sling." I sometimes use my old, pre-Appleseed shooting techniques and set up not using the sling. That's when I get myself messed up. I now consider it more a mental challenge - not a hardware challenge.
Most 180 series newer generation have a much larger diameter barrel at the gas block which then tapers towards the muzzle some early ones had the smaller diameter. The "standard" is just as thick as the target model at the gas block. One thing I would try is to get an aftermarket stock and install a swivel stud into the stock before the gas block. There are some stiff laminated wood stocks out there and heavier synthetic than stock.
I've seen some guys bed the action and put metal plates in the area of the mag well - probably the weak area of the mini's stock. I highlighted your reply for that need. Also, the stock would need to do away with indexing with the gas block. When I considered moving the sling swivel stud on my rifle, I realized that would still put pressure on the gas block because of how the stock keys into the block.
I persist...
Quote from: AndreWhen I considered moving the sling swivel stud on my rifle, I realized that would still put pressure on the gas block because of how the stock keys into the block.
Less pressure = less deflection. A laminated stock will deflect far less than attaching directly to the gas block. The swivel point would also be further back which will lessen leverage on the barrel. I physically compared 3 types of rifles yesterday. The pencil barrel "old" style mini had a thin profile from receiver to muzzle. The target model was thickest near the receiver and tapered slightly to the gas block. The standard new 580/581 series appeared to taper slightly less to the gas block than the target model did. It is possible that the hand guard is a little wider so it was an optical illustion but either way the 580/581 series barrels are significantly stiffer than the old 18x/19x series.
If you've got a Mini14 that shoots good use it. If not you might find more satisfaction and get more range time from buying an AR15 and using the money spent to accurize a mini14 to buy ammo for the AR15.
I've got an old Mini14 that I'll bet hasn't been shot since the mid 80's. My M700 Rem. spoiled me and the mini just couldn't match up.
The mini wasn't really designed to be a tack driver. The idea was to have a light and easy to use decently accurate varmint rifle/plinker for around the farm/ranch, etc. For that it works great.
I've seen mini's at Appleseeds but haven't seen anyone shoot a rifleman score yet. I'm sure someone has (???)
If you're looking for consistency and accuracy have you thought of looking at/recording the ejection pattern/place? If you get a load that works pretty good any other loads with similar pressures should put the empties near the good load.
I know this is an older thread, but I think this all this info is important to anyone thinking of using a Mini 14 for an Appleseed event.
I just shot my 2nd Appleseed. I started out with the same Mini 14 (newer, 581 series - 16" barrel) that I used at the previous event. (I was a bit frustrated by my performance at the last event but the experience was awesome, regardless...)
Saturday was kind of frustrating, my groups were all over the place, but I had fundamentals to work out and wrote it off. I came out the next day, and my groups were decent initially. The morning progressed (it was pretty hot) and things got worse. I was extremely frustrated, but tried to stay positive. I had been tweaking my approach to the fundamentals and could not "settle-in".
Finally, before lunch, the Range Boss came over and said that he thought I may have a rifle problem. I had loaned my 10/22 to a friend that I brought to the event and my backup was another Mini-14 that I had recently acquired used. The instructors were watching my technique and couldn't see any problems that would be leading to my groupings. They got a known good 10/22 from one of the instructors and immediately, everything changed.
I began to get it together, but frankly I was a bit fried (both heat and patience-wise). I went from shooting all over the place to shooting a 190 in a couple hours. I'm pretty sure I could have gotten Rifleman if I'd started with my 10/22.
I found out from some of the instructors that they had never been able to qualify Rifleman with their Mini-14's. I was even told that one of the instructors that regularly posts 250's wasn't able to do it.
I don't want to get into Mini-14 bashing. I'll probably hang onto mine because they are fun and easy to operate. I still wouldn't want to be a Redcoat inside 200 yards if an Appleseed student was pointing it at me. ;)
I just want to let others know that there is a lot to be said for keeping in simple and using a good .22 to get started.
I had a great time and hopefully can help other Appleseed attendees avoid unnecessary frustration in the future.
Good post Sicktone.
I have a Mini-14 that on a good days shoots 1.5moa 3 shot group at 100, but normally it's more like 3.5moa. I imagine once I started hammering down and that thin barrell heated up it would go to 6moa.
Never tried an Appleseed with it. Probably never will.
It makes a good "hog gun" and that is what I use it for. :~
Like you said it is a trim little package with impressive fire power.
I would'nt one anyone pointing one at me, no matter how inaccurate they are said to be.
Makes a great truck gun...as intended.
It appears to me that mini-14s suffer from production Q/C issues. I've shot Monday/Friday rifles that I wouldn't bring out of the truck at an Appleseed.
I saw a Tuesday/Wednesday/Thursday rifle last weekend, at the Rochester, MN Appleseed.
we had a young man shooting an off the shelf, totally stock mini-14
It was his first Appleseed, his best score on Sunday was 198
A little more practice and he'll shoot Rifleman w/that mini-14
I've seen the same thing. I always liked the Mini-14's (maybe it was an A-Team thing ;) ). I had a good friend that shot very well with his Mini and swore by them. He got 1.5 MOA off a lead-sled and pulled off some amazing shots.
I'm inclined to think that Texas Rifleman hit the nail on the head: Great truck gun. Like the Range Boss at my shoot said: They're great at what they were designed for...
I just don't want another Appleseed student to endure the kind of frustration I went through--I'm sure it built some character, but I'd prefer to build rifle skills.
Good to hear that there's a happy Mini-14 Sharpshooter out there!
"I just don't want another Appleseed student to endure the kind of frustration I went through--I'm sure it built some character, but I'd prefer to build rifle skills."
Add .22 AR conversions to that list as well. Had another example this weekend......O.L.
An Appleseed is the worst time to finally shoot your rifle enough to find out that it either won't work reliably or it won't group well. Unfortunately an Appleseed is also the first time many shooters learn either about their rifles/ammo choice. Fact of life. The folks coming to Appleseeds these days are increasingly not "gun people". They may become gun people after they get a taste of the fun/feeling they get when they learn to use that rifle better and they many not.
An unreliable gun is a result of many things and the owner shares some responsibility in the ownership, lack of prior use, lack of understanding of the gun. You may be able to be a great race car driver while not being able to understand how to fix the car since someone else will pay others to work on it for you. It's pretty tough to be a good rifleman without understanding how to properly take care of your rifle and troubleshoot problems with it. No one else works with your rifle as much as you do, so get to it, or spend the rest of your life blaming manufacturers, ammo, the scope, the weather, some guy yacking away in the next lane, etc., etc., etc.
Quote from: oladcock on October 04, 2011, 01:47:23 AM
"I just don't want another Appleseed student to endure the kind of frustration I went through--I'm sure it built some character, but I'd prefer to build rifle skills."
Add .22 AR conversions to that list as well. Had another example this weekend......O.L.
I'd say the conversion kits are like the mini-14s, in that some can/will shoot a RM score, and some will never do it.
ARchick from MN shot her RM score using a Ceiner kit, IIRC. I've seen the CMMG kits do it as well. The conversion kits seem to work best when paired w/ an older upper, w/ a 1:12 twist.
I've got an early model Mini-14 that I bought used and put into a Hogue overmold rubber stock. I just recently pulled it out of the safe and thought that I would try to make it into an LTR, but have found it to be inconsistent and not up to shooting a rifleman score in my hands so far. I'm toying with the idea of sending it off for an Accuracy Systems harmonic stabilizer installation ($320) because I'm not going to spring for a target bull rebarreling ($800). I like the simplicity of the rifle, but not willing to sink 3 or 4 times its value into rework.
We had one at the last shoot where, with the sight cranked all the way down, it still shot four moa high. However, it made it through all of Sunday with no malfunctions.
Quote from: Texas Rifleman on October 03, 2011, 06:24:33 PM
Good post Sicktone.
I have a Mini-14 that on a good days shoots 1.5moa 3 shot group at 100, but normally it's more like 3.5moa. I imagine once I started hammering down and that thin barrell heated up it would go to 6moa.
Never tried an Appleseed with it. Probably never will.
It makes a good "hog gun" and that is what I use it for. :~
Like you said it is a trim little package with impressive fire power.
I would'nt one anyone pointing one at me, no matter how inaccurate they are said to be.
Makes a great truck gun...as intended.
I saw weirdness with one student who, after a period of instruction or history, the rifle would shoot great. But by the time we rolled through an AQT to stage 4, the rifle was all over the place. We put an instructor on the rifle that shot it cold. It was wild to watch. As the instructor was shooting the rifle at rifleman's cadence and shifting from square to square. As the rifle heated up, the groups opened up. Cold rifle, great shooter. Hot rifle? Nasty.
We eventually handed the student another rifle, which made for a far less frustrated student.
Got my Mini back from Accuracy Systems on Friday. I was able to shoot it a bit on my personal 25M range on Sunday to check out sight alignment and mount and sight in a red dot on the scout mount installed on the upper gas block. Rifle functioned fine, the linear compensator on the newly installed harmonic stabilizer is loud, but really effective in suppressing recoil. I was able to shoot some 2 or 3 MOA groups with Lake City M855 (SS109) and M183 55 gr. I didn't have the time to try and run it through an AQT, so most of my shooting was cold or slightly warm barrel. They installed a Fire Sight fiber optic front sight that can be sighted through the scout mount. I drilled and tapped my rear peep sight plate for a screw in aperture, but I was able to shoot my best group of the session with the red dot vs. the irons. I'm going to continue to see what ammo it prefers and work with it to determine if it has the stuff to be an LTR.
I am going to buy a .223, and was considering the new mini-14 "Target" rifle. I've often heard about the mini-14 accuracy issues, but was hoping the Target version might be the solution. I think going to the AR platform may be the best solution. I have friends who get great accuracy from theirs.
Quote from: UpChuck on January 19, 2012, 02:12:43 AMI think going to the AR platform may be the best solution. I have friends who get great accuracy from theirs.
I used to have a mini-14. Emphasis on the "used to" part.
The mini is an awesome rifle for throwing in the pick-em-up truck or on the ATV, etc. It's great for adding a folding stock and red dot on there and having a decent little semiauto to carry around while you're out doing chores or just to dump some ammo and have some fun. But, it's not so great for cutting X-rings at 500... and that's a lot closer to what we do.
With the recent price drops in the AR world (DPMS and S&W sell their base models for just over $600 now) it's really a no-brainer to go with the AR. The cost difference just doesn't justify it any more. The AR is a much better rifle for target shooting.
Since we're a field shooting program though, I wouldn't pass up on a mini if my fields were only about 300 yards. They're plenty accurate within that range.
Slim is right. The Mini is a good rifle, out to a certain distance (so is an AK).
That being said, there's some pretty good reasons to go the AR route.
Most folks don't realize the AR-15 platform is undoubtedly the most accurate semi-auto platform made. Dig back through some old issues of "Precision Shooting" and you'll see. That magazine started out as a Benchrest competitor's magazine, and has been expanded some over the years. I personally know the editor, Dave Brennan, met him at his first BR competion in Millerton NY when I was about 13-15 years old (and a fellow shooter).
There was an article where a guy up in Ontario got an AR to shoot groups under 1/4 MOA. That's with a lot of aftermarket/custom parts and some serious gunsmithing, but I know of no other semi-auto rifle that can come close.
With a little parts picking and building, a 2-3 MOA AR-15 is a fairly easy proposition, and all a good rifleman needs. So, unless you're experimenting, why fiddle around?
My AR has it's uses, just as my bolt guns have theirs and my .30 cal semis have theirs. If I'm looking for good groups from positions, and reasonably rapid fire, it's my AR. The others come into play in their strong areas.
Add to that http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/firearms/rifles/tactical/psa-16-hf-m4a1-patrol-carbine.html (http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/firearms/rifles/tactical/psa-16-hf-m4a1-patrol-carbine.html) is cheaper once you consider the fact that it comes with an optic, and apparently shoots 1-1.5 MOA (can't find the review link, but I KNOW I read it) is of much better QC, more accurate, and has many, many, many more accessories, I don't see why you would buy a mini-14. Unless, of course, you just wanted one. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that! I am aware that the PSA patrol Carbine is currently out of stock, but MSRP is 999.99, with frequent sales.
You could also build an AR cheaper, it only takes an afternoon.
Using http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/ar-15-05/rifle-kits/16-4150-chrome-lined-mid-length-rifle-kit.html (http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/ar-15-05/rifle-kits/16-4150-chrome-lined-mid-length-rifle-kit.html)
and the lower of your choice (the same company has them on sale for 49.95), you can build an AR for a very reasonable price, and it is still high-quality. Plus, PSA has great customer service
I'm not just throwing these links out there, they are what I built my AR with. I'm currently dealing with GG&G to get the rear sight I want, but my rifle shoots reliably and is more accurate then I am.
Roland
I bought a Mini-14 back in the 90's. Shot it a fair amount, using factory ammo and reloads. An 'older', '182' series as I recal. It suffered from all the ills the Mini is infamous for. Wouldn't group in a bushel basket, totally indifferent to sight adjustments, blah blah & so forth...
I did a fair amount of research on-line trying to figure out;' what to do, what to do ?'. Long distance calls to various chop shops pondering if it was worth the price of an overhaul, reading anything I could find on the subject, etc.
In the course of an on-line discussion some bright boy suggested that if one was suffering from 'Mini-itis', the cure was to get an AR, and 'don't look back'. Proved to be good advice.
That said,,,I would like to try a 'new' model Mini, '585' series, or however they are designated. The newer models are supposed to have addressed all (or most) of the problems the Mini was (is) hated for. The idea of a semi .223 that weighs 2.5lbs. less than an AR, and will consistently group 4" or less at 100yds. was then, and is now, still a good idea. But I'll have to see it first.
Ruger was far too recalcitrant in dealing w/ the situation as far as I'm concerned.
I could go on,,,but it's an old subject..... :DH:
Quote from: KodyJaret on January 19, 2012, 10:37:18 PMI would like to try a 'new' model Mini, '585' series, or however they are designated. The newer models are supposed to have addressed all (or most) of the problems the Mini was (is) hated for. The idea of a semi .223 that weighs 2.5lbs. less than an AR, and will consistently group 4" or less at 100yds. was then, and is now, still a good idea. But I'll have to see it first.
The "new" minis I've seen on the AS lines have been pretty good as far as accuracy goes. They're nowhere near AR accurate, but they're good enough.
The Mini-14 is a brush gun. It's for riding the rails, doing chores, etc. Just like the AR wasn't designed to be a machine gun, the Mini wasn't designed to be a sub-MOA shooter. Different tools for different jobs.
I have a mini ranch, that I've scored rifleman with, iron sights. Good enough, paid $450.00 used, former owner bought an AR, said the mini wasn't accurate enough. I like it, fun to shoot. Tried to get the wife to shoot an AR, she said I'm not shooting that ugly thing. I put some wood furniture on it thought I would trick her into liking the AR. Still ugly, so I showed her my mini :~ . http://www.mini14ranch.com/ These guys seem to know a little about the mini.
Winter project, re-barrel, glass bed the wife's mini %) .
D-fly Whatever it takes to get the wife shooting centerfire O0 .
Quote from: dragonfly on January 20, 2012, 10:45:08 AM
I have a mini ranch, that I've scored rifleman with, iron sights. Good enough, paid $450.00 used, former owner bought an AR, said the mini wasn't accurate enough. I like it, fun to shoot. Tried to get the wife to shoot an AR, she said I'm not shooting that ugly thing. I put some wood furniture on it thought I would trick her into liking the AR. Still ugly, so I showed her my mini :~ . http://www.mini14ranch.com/ These guys seem to know a little about the mini.
Winter project, re-barrel, glass bed the wife's mini %) .
D-fly Whatever it takes to get the wife shooting centerfire O0 .
Yes, Accuracy Systems does know a lot about the Mini-14 and they do good work. Spendy, and they will market you for more upgrades and cost, but they turned mine around quickly with a quality install of the harmonic stabilizer. I haven't had a chance to shoot an AQT with it, but I have shot one-hole 5 shot groups at 25m with a variety of ammo, so I know it is more than capable after $600 work on a $300 used Mini-14. I like the little gun, and was willing to spend the extra bucks to try and make it a shooter, but if you are on a budget, you may be happier with an AR variant.
Quote from: dragonfly on January 20, 2012, 10:45:08 AM
I have a mini ranch, that I've scored rifleman with, iron sights. Good enough, paid $450.00 used, former owner bought an AR, said the mini wasn't accurate enough. I like it, fun to shoot. Tried to get the wife to shoot an AR, she said I'm not shooting that ugly thing. I put some wood furniture on it thought I would trick her into liking the AR. Still ugly, so I showed her my mini :~ . http://www.mini14ranch.com/ These guys seem to know a little about the mini.
Winter project, re-barrel, glass bed the wife's mini %) .
D-fly Whatever it takes to get the wife shooting centerfire O0 .
Think maybe the 762 cartridge is an inherently more accurate ?
As for making an AR good looking enough for Mrs D-Fly --kinda like the lipstick on a pig !
now the mini's have just good lines ;)