I think it would be a great experience if they made an AS event specifically designed for the bolt action. Just went to my first AS shoot and it seemed more inclined to the semi auto, and I thought it would be really cool and a great experience if they had an AS shoot specifically dedicated and designed for the bolt action rifle.
It just so happens that the army qualifier cof was originally designed for a bolt action...
While Appleseed is more "geared" toward the semi-auto rifle MANY have made Rifleman with a good ol' Boltie... IT can be done!!!!!
Quote from: staplegund on January 31, 2011, 10:58:26 PM
It just so happens that the army qualifier cof was originally designed for a bolt action...
Are you referring to the AQT????
Quote from: therealsteamer on January 31, 2011, 10:59:15 PM
While Appleseed is more "geared" toward the semi-auto rifle MANY have made Rifleman with a good ol' Boltie... IT can be done!!!!!
Quote from: staplegund on January 31, 2011, 10:58:26 PM
It just so happens that the army qualifier cof was originally designed for a bolt action...
Are you referring to the AQT????
Yes, the orginal AQT was based on the 1903 Enfield, I think I heard. Anyhow for sure it was a pre-Garand bolt-action rifle --- what was the U.S. Army using back then?
Quotewhat was the U.S. Army using back then?
T
US Rifle M1903 and 1903A3 (Springfield) , although the M1 was in issue which is why we get a 2/8 count, 1903 rifles used 5/5
The "Enfield" is the US Rifle M1917 which at the time was "substitute standard" and in issue to native troops in The Department of the Philippines, Puerto Rico and the Panama Canal Zone.
I've shot one AQT with my M1 Garand so far (didn't qualify - 207, but not bad for first attempt ever and didn't have time to run again). There was plenty of time with 2 and 8 round enblocs. I have a couple 1903A3s and a nice 1917 Enfield. I've shot them all top-stuffing with 5 round clips (although never against the clock). I plan to shoot rifleman with all of them in 2011. I think 2, 5 and 3 reloads with the bolt actions would really press your time - perhaps a 5 and 5 reload "allowance" for the bolts? - it would still mandate one reload like the semi-autos, just at 5 instead of 2.
Quote from: ID_Hezekiah on January 31, 2011, 11:59:47 PM
I've shot one AQT with my M1 Garand so far (didn't qualify - 207, but not bad for first attempt ever and didn't have time to run again). There was plenty of time with 2 and 8 round enblocs. I have a couple 1903A3s and a nice 1917 Enfield. I've shot them all top-stuffing with 5 round clips (although never against the clock). I plan to shoot rifleman with all of them in 2011. I think 2, 5 and 3 reloads with the bolt actions would really press your time - perhaps a 5 and 5 reload "allowance" for the bolts? - it would still mandate one reload like the semi-autos, just at 5 instead of 2.
Yep,
Prep two five round mags.
I have been to 2 Appleseeds so far and am still working towards a Rifleman with my Savage bolt action. I have to say that before my first shoot, I read about "a rack-grade rifle with iron sights" and thought that would be what everyone was using, but so far have seen mostly semi-autos with scopes.
It is sometimes frustrating to be out there, persisting, seeing everyone else using these advantages. I know that when I do get it, my patch will really mean something, but I can see where someone could feel they are at a disadvantage using a bolt and/or open sights.
Then again, maybe I'm just a really bad shot! (so far)
Quote from: HalfPint on February 01, 2011, 12:06:25 AM
I have been to 2 Appleseeds so far and am still working towards a Rifleman with my Savage bolt action. I have to say that before my first shoot, I read about "a rack-grade rifle with iron sights" and thought that would be what everyone was using, but so far have seen mostly semi-autos with scopes.
It is sometimes frustrating to be out there, persisting, seeing everyone else using these advantages. I know that when I do get it, my patch will really mean something, but I can see where someone could feel they are at a disadvantage using a bolt and/or open sights.
Then again, maybe I'm just a really bad shot! (so far)
Halfpint,
You did great out on the range in Lewiston. With your persistence it won't be long and we'll be handing you that Rifleman's badge. Were you able to get a hold of a USGI sling yet? Are you coming out again in February?
TT
Quote from: HalfPint on February 01, 2011, 12:06:25 AM
I have been to 2 Appleseeds so far and am still working towards a Rifleman with my Savage bolt action. I have to say that before my first shoot, I read about "a rack-grade rifle with iron sights" and thought that would be what everyone was using, but so far have seen mostly semi-autos with scopes.
It is sometimes frustrating to be out there, persisting, seeing everyone else using these advantages. I know that when I do get it, my patch will really mean something, but I can see where someone could feel they are at a disadvantage using a bolt and/or open sights.
Then again, maybe I'm just a really bad shot! (so far)
You'll get it halfpint! I was in Lewiston a few weeks ago too and after watching you I know it won't be long! I shot with open sights at my first two appleseeds and just switched to a scope for my last one. I think it was helpful to use the ironsights not only because scopes break and iron sights don't but I think it teaches better focus then a scope does. It is easy to focus on the target (bad) with a scope. Your focus must be on the cross hairs and this is easy to forget. With iron sights you are forced to focus on the frontsight otherwise you get VERY poor results. This is a great habit to build! Good luck and keep persisting!
I witnessed timed and scored a Rifleman aqt done with a single shot iron sighted .22 (Note I was not the shooter) and it can in fact be done ,,If I remember correctlt the score was 212 :)
Wade
Half pint the playing field is more level than you suspect.
Although you will see people on the line with semi auto/scopes, they still need to build a steady firing position, shoot the shots by the six steps and master their natural point of aim and associated shifts before they perform at a high level.
Without all those pieces working together, a student will hit a plateau and not progress until the imbalance is corrected.
And some students need scopes because their eyes aren't good enough for iron sights.
So even though the semi auto function and scope provide a mechanical/optical advantage over bolt fed iron sighted rifles. The marksmanship skills required are the same for all platforms.
No question that shooting a bolt introduces challenges, caused by reacquiring the sight picture/npoa after each bolt manipulation.
But hey a Rifleman loves a challenge. At the last Las Vegas Appleseed, we had a student shoot a 242 with a bolt action 22. That's the highest score I've personally witnessed.
An all bolt/iron sight Appleseed is an interesting concept, but since each student is in effect competing with themselves, if they bring a bolt action iron sighted rifle to the line aren't they doing that already?
So practice with your rifle and come on back to the next Appleseed.
A Rifleman persists.
And when you get your Patch, you can smile and know that you did it your way.
Quote from: SamD on January 31, 2011, 11:13:25 PM
Quotewhat was the U.S. Army using back then?
T
US Rifle M1903 and 1903A3 (Springfield) , although the M1 was in issue which is why we get a 2/8 count, 1903 rifles used 5/5
The "Enfield" is the US Rifle M1917 which at the time was "substitute standard" and in issue to native troops in The Department of the Philippines, Puerto Rico and the Panama Canal Zone.
Thank you SamD. I knew about the M1 basis for the 2 & 8 mags; thanks for the clarification on the bolt-actions. This too is part of Hertiage, I think --- these authentic U.S. military roots of the Appleseed COF.
Quote from: w3st on January 31, 2011, 09:46:14 PM
I think it would be a great experience if they made an AS event specifically designed for the bolt action. Just went to my first AS shoot and it seemed more inclined to the semi auto, and I thought it would be really cool and a great experience if they had an AS shoot specifically dedicated and designed for the bolt action rifle.
Well W3st, whether or not there's ever a bolt-action only AS event, as folks are saying here: be proud of what you'll achieve with the rifle of your choice. And find a way to pass it on.
A bolt action exclusive event would be neat. Not necessary since there allowed already, but neat and might make good publicity nonetheless, especially if you dont change anything from a normal event like the time constraints. I have read multiple posts/threads on other sites were the program is bashed for discouraging bolt actions with our tight time constraints. If we put together a whole Appleseed with just bolt actions and had them do everything the same as a normal Appleseed, produced Rifleman, made the shooters more proficient and effective with their bolties, that might help to shut up the bashers once they see it can be done. Heck its done all over the country at multiple Appleseeds in ones and two's, but a exclusive event would be better promo material.
As for myself I use a bolt action all the time on the AQT with no problem. I shoot the standard QDAQT, RFAQT, "Advanced AQT", and FDAQT all with the bolt action and I have never not scored Rifleman.
Quote from: staplegund on January 31, 2011, 10:58:26 PM
It just so happens that the army qualifier cof was originally designed for a bolt action...
I would like to gets Fred's input on this as I have heard this alot, even say it myself, but the more research I do, I'm thinking its only half true. The AQT itself from what I have found is adapted from a EIC match for the Garand. That match evolved from using the Springfield originally, but our AQT is more related to a Garand COF then a Springfield '03. The 50 and 60 second time limits for Stage 2 and 3 and the load 2/8 requirement is remnants of the Garand COF's not the Springfield. The Springfield COF's from what I have found provided more time for slow fire but the rapid fire stages were normally broke up into two seperate 5 round strings, each about 20 or 30 seconds a piece for the 5 shots, then both were combined to get the total of 10rds. So essentially they had a break inbetween 5 shot strings. Now I may be wrong on some of this, its hard to actually find some one who was shooting competition pre-Garand era to confirm or deny things, but from the internet research I have done and talking to a few other competition shooters this is what I have found.
TT - I did order slings, also AQT targets so I can practice before February (I'll only make it Sunday, tho). In the meantime, I'm dry firing away!
Quote from: HalfPint on February 01, 2011, 02:44:36 PM
TT - I did order slings, also AQT targets so I can practice before February (I'll only make it Sunday, tho). In the meantime, I'm dry firing away!
Good for you! It's great to get the AQT's so you can practice them on your own time! I did that too and it really helped. Good luck at your next Appleseed and let me know when you shoot Rifleman!
Its hard to imagine getting Rifleman score with a bolt action, but I hve witnessed it!
SPLATICUS got a 246!!! at the last Lewiston shoot
Nice Job!! O0 :bow: ^:)^
Quote from: boltgun71 on February 01, 2011, 08:06:35 AM
A bolt action exclusive event would be neat. Not necessary since there allowed already, but neat and might make good publicity nonetheless, especially if you dont change anything from a normal event like the time constraints. I have read multiple posts/threads on other sites were the program is bashed for discouraging bolt actions with our tight time constraints. If we put together a whole Appleseed with just bolt actions and had them do everything the same as a normal Appleseed, produced Rifleman, made the shooters more proficient and effective with their bolties, that might help to shut up the bashers once they see it can be done. Heck its done all over the country at multiple Appleseeds in ones and two's, but a exclusive event would be better promo material.
As for myself I use a bolt action all the time on the AQT with no problem. I shoot the standard QDAQT, RFAQT, "Advanced AQT", and FDAQT all with the bolt action and I have never not scored Rifleman.
Quote from: staplegund on January 31, 2011, 10:58:26 PM
It just so happens that the army qualifier cof was originally designed for a bolt action...
I would like to gets Fred's input on this as I have heard this alot, even say it myself, but the more research I do, I'm thinking its only half true. The AQT itself from what I have found is adapted from a EIC match for the Garand. That match evolved from using the Springfield originally, but our AQT is more related to a Garand COF then a Springfield '03. The 50 and 60 second time limits for Stage 2 and 3 and the load 2/8 requirement is remnants of the Garand COF's not the Springfield. The Springfield COF's from what I have found provided more time for slow fire but the rapid fire stages were normally broke up into two seperate 5 round strings, each about 20 or 30 seconds a piece for the 5 shots, then both were combined to get the total of 10rds. So essentially they had a break inbetween 5 shot strings. Now I may be wrong on some of this, its hard to actually find some one who was shooting competition pre-Garand era to confirm or deny things, but from the internet research I have done and talking to a few other competition shooters this is what I have found.
I don't know any of that history - but I knew instinctively that a 2/8 loading was intended for the Garand. I'd LOVE to shoot a bolt-only event! But as I said earlier, I'm going to expand my shooting to most of my military weapons and want to shoot Rifleman with them all. I shoot iron sights on nearly all of my military guns, I do have red dots on one M1A and a couple of ARs, but I've only shot irons at Appleseed to date and I prefer to shoot irons.
OK thanks for the input everybody, and the main problem I seem to face is not the time restraints but the magazine capacity, As my rifle only holds 5 rounds. And I do think thats interesting that the original AQT was actually made for the bolt action, and does anybody know around the actual date that the AQT was established.
A note for halfpint and any others feeling the pull to the semi-auto side, stick to your bolt ~~:)
I made my patch with my Savage 93 and it means a lot to me personally that I did it 'old school' O0
As for the other shooters on the line banging away, get in your bubble and forget them. Your path is to improve your own skills, then we'll get you on board to help others do the same ^:)^
Baminal
When we way 'rack grade rifle with iron sights,' we mean that shooting a Rifleman score is VERY ATTAINABLE with this equipment. Yes, while shooting with a scoped semi-auto will probably make shooting easier, it also may encourage you to 'skip' certain steps and glance over (instead of really concentrate on) aspects of shooting that are honed more so when shooting with irons. Step 1 (sight alignment) and Steps 4a (focus your eye on the front sight) and 4b (focus your mind on keeping the front sight on target) are examples of steps I see overlooked quite often by shooters with scopes.
As far as shooting with a bolt-action (vs. a semi-auto), there are also pros to using a bolt action, even though shooting a semi-auto is probably easier. One of the biggest pros to shooting a bolt at an AS has to do with NPOA. It really makes you practice finding your NPOA for EACH SHOT. It emphasizes taking your time and being sure of your target. If you shoot and practice with a bolt, your NPOA finding/shifting will come quite a bit faster to you than if you shoot with a semi-auto.
My thoughts. :)
---GF
Thanks y'all, I am sticking with it 'old school' and I know I am getting a liiiittle faster each time. Looking forward to practicing with my sling when it gets here!
QuoteIf we put together a whole Appleseed with just bolt actions and had them do everything the same as a normal Appleseed, produced Rifleman, made the shooters more proficient and effective with their bolties, that might help to shut up the bashers once they see it can be done
Wouldn't shut them up a bit boltgun and you know it.
They just like to whine ;D
There is NO SUBSTITUTE for hard won skill.
Hey w3st, I have a young lady who is now an IIT3 (Dani-O - 14 years old) who shot 5 Rifleman scores in a row with a Marlin tube fed bolt. She had to eject the third round to make up for not having a magazine to change.
I also have an Instructor (Double D) who shot a rifleman score with a right handed single shot bolt even though he is left handed.
Bolts do suffer from a bit of a handicap but it's the shooter that counts more than the rifle.
Quote from: BaldDragn on February 02, 2011, 02:38:52 AM
Hey w3st, I have a young lady who is now an IIT3 (Dani-O - 14 years old) who shot 5 Rifleman scores in a row with a Marlin tube fed bolt. She had to eject the third round to make up for not having a magazine to change.
I also have an Instructor (Double D) who shot a rifleman score with a right handed single shot bolt even though he is left handed.
Bolts do suffer from a bit of a handicap but it's the shooter that counts more than the rifle.
That young lady made it more difficult then was needed for herself. As I understand it and have been taught, if your using a bolt action you do not have a required magazine change, the point being with a magazine change is to make you break position and test your NPOA during the COF at least once. With a bolt action your doing that with every single shot, therefore bolties are not required to do a mag change. This is what I have been told by Fred. Most bolt actions I encounter dont have 10rd mags so a mag change is usually done anyways but in the few instances where I come across something like a Savage with 10rd mags then I don't make them do a mag change.
You know you're a Rifleman when you can hop down with a K98 or M91/30 and some stripper clips, fire a sighter group, and shoot Expert.
At some of our Oklahoma shoots we get out these old surplus rifles and let anyone who wants to shoot them get down and run through a Redcoat, CAQT, or QDAQT. We like to put an instructor slot on the line if we are well staffed enough, and let instructors become familiarized with these and other types of rifles that they may not have had experience with.
The biggest difficulty I've noticed shooting with a 5 round stripper clip is during stage 2 and 3 trying to get the rounds fed into rifle quickly while simultaneously shifting NPOA to be ready to fire the shot as soon as possible. If you're going to use milsurp stuff, make sure your rounds slide easily off the stripper clips beforehand. Some of those rounds have been stuck on the clips for 60-70 years. Getting mad and fast only gets blood all over the gun and the hand you're trying to force them with.
I've not tried it, but I would guess an Enfield with a spare 10 rnd mag might be a pretty good bolt gun for this.
To become fast with a surplus bolt gun you have to practice a lot. Make or buy a stripper clip full of dummy rounds, mark or drill holes in them so you don't ever mix them up with live rounds. Then put on a good war movie on and practice loading from the stripper clip. If you have an 1903,1903A3 or a 1917, Mauser 96 stripper clips work better then the USGI stripper clips, most I've seen are brass and the rounds slide off easily. Then put that target in the hallway and practice in the various positions working the bolt as if you were shooting. With a clean rifle and practice you will be able to shoot a rifleman score with time to spare. Don't be afraid of working the bolt fast, the rifle has been treated worse than you will ever treat it. I own all of the above and have shot rifleman scores with all of them, even single loading a 1903A4 (after the rounds in the magazine ran out) . Practice ,Practice , Practice