Here are just some thoughts on the "Black Rifle" and it's performance at an Appleseed event. Most of the AR's I have seen are set up for more tactical shooting styles. You see various slings, sights and gizmo's that while useful, dont usually add up for the best Experience. So here is my thoughts on setting one up.
Sights
Iron Sights Iron sights are a must. This can be in the form of flip-ups or Standard sights. No rifle should be without them. You should also have the proper tools to adjust them. you should also know the clicks per MOA for th
Red Dot/Holographic Sights These sights are very useful for AS shoots. They are easy to adjust and are accurate. Provided you have a Quality optic. The lower standard Red Dots have limited battery life and do not get bright enough for a Beautiful AS day. Hence the reason for the Iron sights. You should know the adjustments of your scope. There is know way for instructors to know every sight on the market. Also bring spare batteries to the shoot. and the tools to re-tighten your optic.
Magnified optics Magnified optics are great, but present challenges. You need to deal with eye relief, scope shadow, and the fact of being behind the optic for most of the day. These challenges will present themselves are you change positions and as you grow tired. these are challenges that may be the difference between a Rifleman score and something less.
Slings.
The biggest issue for the AR system at an Appleseed. It seems as if everyone who can sew is making a sling. And they all seem to have there own mounting configuration. You need to have a bottom mount sling swivel. The Tactical side mount will do nothing for you here. While possible to sling up, it will cause you plenty of headaches. If you are using a sling that has a sewn in QD swivel, I recommend purchasing on that is free of the sling. I hate to cut up a nice sling to get a swivel.
2 Point slings At a minimum I recommend a quality quick adjustable 2 point sling. This allows you to use a hasty configuration and some can also be used as a loop sling.
Single point or 3 point slings have no place at an Appleseed. They are at best useless for our style of shooting.
Gizmo's and enhancements
There is really an entire billion dollar industry based on accessories the AR style of weapons. Everything from rail mounted Iphone adapters to stocks with 2 places to put you shoulder. Most of these fall into the "Gee whiz" area for AS purposes. But there are a few that I will recommend to make your experience better
The Magpul BAD lever. It allows you to work the bolt from either side of the rifle. when slung up it is very hard to reach the bolt release and this fixes that problem.
Stock made for a rubber buttpad.
Free float tube or rail system. It is possible, rare but possible to sling in on the AR so tight you effect the point of impact. This is due to the sling attaching to either the Front sight base or the hand guard. the free float tube attaches to the upper receiver and stops that effect.
Rail covers are a must. If you have a rail system, cover up the cheese grater. I use the ladder covers to keep the rail small but some prefer a bigger gripping surface
By no measn is this post all inclusive. If you have other ideas lets hear them
Stock A2 with GI Sling.
Perfect.
Slim, that is the ticket. There is just something about the a2 that is just sexy. No lights lasers or Gizmo's.
Good point CavMan
Quote from: U.S.Cavalryman on November 27, 2010, 08:17:40 PMSlim, that is the ticket. There is just something about the a2 that is just sexy. No lights lasers or Gizmo's.
If it aint broke, don't fix it.
I wish I had a dollar for every AR "accessory" I saw removed from a rifle during the course of an Appleseed weekend. I could probably retire.
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_XU9x8G7khv0/Sl487TQ1hAI/AAAAAAAAHWE/FyCgfVe9BuI/s1600-h/Barbie_for_Men.jpg
hey, why did you take post a pic of my work bench? ;)
If you do not have rail covers a heavy glove will do the trick
I always set my ARs up so that the scope is the correct height/distance in relation to my eye so that my nose is on the charging handle - just like when I use the iron sights. Same cheek weld, same position, just different sights. This also means using quick detachable scope rings.
That's made me hunt around for different mounts/rings in order to get the different scopes in the right spot.
I like the free float tubes, too. Most of mine are round with nothing on them but a sling swivel up front. The ones with rails have covers on them but they sure do feel "funny" when they're that big around.
Anyone who has an AR should have a sight adjustment tool (yeah, a bullet tip works - if you've got fmj bullets) but the tool makes it so much nicer and besides, who buys only one AR??) I'll admit to owning only one M1A but AR's are like Lays potato chips.
Stock A1
w/GI Sling
Now that's purrfect
Vern went old school. A1 huh. I do like the triangle handguards. I shoot with my had way out front so I really like those.
Yes sir!
Just built a retro A1 to relive the pre-85 days 8)
Shot a RFAQT with it last month and qual'ed, gonna try it again this weekend if I get a chance at Colebrook ^:)^
Quote from: U.S.Cavalryman on November 27, 2010, 10:35:05 PM
Vern went old school. A1 huh. I do like the triangle handguards. I shoot with my had way out front so I really like those.
I have seen considerable reticulation with red-dots and holosights, no matter how much the MFGR claims this will not happen. Every single one of them I've had my hands on, I've put my eye behind the optic, kept the rifle steady, and wiggled my head around and seen the POA shift with my eye positioning. Yes, this can be overcome with a consistent cheek-weld, but to what degree?
Yes, I can shoot minute of Baker target out to 300 or so with a holosight. But precision optics, they are not. Not to mention the fact that the dots are often 3MOA or greater.
In my humble opinion, dots and holosights are best for CQB, which was their design purpose. They represent a tradeoff between quick target acquisition in exchange for precision.
When shooting an AS with my very high end dot (it's really a chevron if that gives you any indicator of manufacture) I quickly wound up removing it and going with my ARMS BUIS. Reticulation was an obvious problem to me.
And yes, I concur. Plane-jane A2 is absolutely the ticket. I think people should get re-acquainted with what such a rifle is capable of, all on it's own. Mounting an appliance store on your AR doesn't help you if your trigger squeeze is poor or your NPOA is off.
I have had good luck with them. If you have the brightness too high it can be a problem. We shot a a couple Full distance AQT's and didnt have any problems. But I would say that 90% of my shooting is thru optics. But the large 4 MOA dots do get in the way.
The Holo I run has 1 MOA dot in the center of a big ring. I witnessed 1 MOA groups at 100 by an awesome Rifleman with the same style optic. I have also seen Minute of Milk Jug groups at 25. Goes to show that everyone is different.
I also do not shoot with nose to charging handle. Most shooters with an M4 will collapse the stock to achieve this Imaginary need for it. It is like shooting a Youth Stock 10-22. Such a short length of pull takes you farther from your natural body position. the A1 length stock is perfect for a lot of shooters. Little known thing is the Drill Sergeants enforce the nose to charging handle thing so it is efficient for them to teach and see when you are moving your head, not to make you shoot better.
Holosights and red dots were built for CQB But.....
they do work if you just follow the six steps and have a good solid position and NPOA. I have shot many rifleman scores at 25m and full distance both with a 3X magnifier behind them and with out. I have watched Firemaned do the same many times with his high end red dot. One time he even had a flash light hooked on the rail.
As far as the ones with the chevron. I have one with a chevron and one with a doughnut. Lots of rifleman scores with them too.
Ask me about the 500 yard hits I was making on 3MOA steel targets with a red dot and a 3point sling last weekend.
yes some rifles are better suited to appleseed shooting than others, but a Rifleman should be able to pick up any of these rifles and shoot it well.
Some of us enjoy more than one style of shooting and equip our rifles to to cover as many as we can.
For shooters that are new, have smaller body frames and hence shorter arms, or just like making getting that elbow under the rifle a little bit easier, then 10 or 20 round magazines are a good addition. I personally prefer 20 rd mags, but I can do 30 rd mags. With the 30 rd mags, I can't completely get my elbow under the rifle; as a not new shooter, I can still find/shift NPOA on target in this position, but for newer shooters, this is not ideal. Always teach the ideal, and then let them adapt (within reason) to find what works for them....getting the elbow under the rifle is ideal.
Oh yeah, and as for mag brands, I haven't seen anything better than MagPul PMags.
My .02.
Quote from: Old Dog on November 27, 2010, 10:07:44 PM
I'll admit to owning only one M1A but AR's are like Lays potato chips.
;D Unfortunately, once you get more than one, you have to make the second one different, rigged out for a different purpose, etc. and that costs more money. !@#)
---GF
CAA stock saddle if you have a standard AR stock. Makes it much easier to get a good, comfortable, consistent cheekweld, plus it gives you someplace to store the AR front sight tool and extra batteries.
I also switched out my front sight post for a national match front sight. Much thinner, makes it easier to line up on those 400-yd targets.
My personal preference is the straight 20-round mags, Colt or Magpul.
+1 on the Bad lever.
Quote from: U.S.Cavalryman on November 27, 2010, 11:52:04 PM
I also do not shoot with nose to charging handle. Most shooters with an M4 will collapse the stock to achieve this Imaginary need for it. ....Little known thing is the Drill Sergeants enforce the nose to charging handle thing so it is efficient for them to teach and see when you are moving your head, not to make you shoot better.
Consistency = accuracy. "Need" is relative but not something I would call imaginary. If you index your nose on the charging handle, you are holding your eye a consistent distance from the rear aperture each and every time. This is why Marksmanship instructors in the military teach this. Also, the closer you are to the rear aperture, the closer to true center you can get with the front sight post as the aperture appears larger. My nose is actually a little past the end of the charging handle. I have maintained this cheek weld since my first Expert score in USMC boot camp.
fepowered, +1.
Not having a consistent cheekweld (resulting in your eye being in the same spot behind the rear sight) results in your group changing position on the target as you change positions. I remember one of the shooter's at my first Stinson, WV Appleseed having issues on the sitting stage. The groups were really good. They just shifted left and low in the sitting position vs. the standing and prone stages.
As for having a natural shooting position....well you can change what is natural. What you "know" is right when you show up on Saturday morning for your first Appleseed will probably change by the time you leave Sunday afternoon. You're "zero" shifts during the weekend and you have to make a sight adjustment to get your group back in the center of the targets. Why? Because the spot your eye is in behind the rear sight changed as you learned more about what works for you and how to build a good solid firing position.
I'm 6'3" tall with fairly long arms and I still collapse my CAR stocks a notch or two. I paint (camo paint - another cool thing about AR's - in my mind anyway - is that it is "okay" to paint them - they're just metal and plastic afterall) the stock in the position I shoot it and that makes it easy to tell when I get the ARs out of the case where the stock needs to be. The only AR I have that I don't put my nose on the charging handle on is a XM177 clone with a charging handle upper receiver. The low power optic is on the carry handle so the nose to charging handle won't work (oh, it has the "gimmicks" on it, too but shoots so good they don't matter >:D). The light/laser come in handy when the dogs start raising cain at ohdarkthirty in the morning and I pick it up to go check out the yard.
Everyone is a little different. They owe it to themselves to make their rifle fit them and learn how to use that rifle.
Have a good one.
I have seen Rifleman scores and shot them myself with different combat slings some are more useful than others are though. With a little bit of work most can be adapted to a decent sling position.
I have 1 AR that does it all rather well, I attend carbine courses with it. Take it straight off that range and shoot Appleseed with it. I shoot some tactical rifle competitions with it against full on sniper rifles and guys who cannot shoot for the most part and do very well. I use the same rifle for coyote hunting have killed several at the 400 yard mark. All of that with nothing but an ammo and an optic change. I wish I could own a different rifle for each use but I quit being a collector a few years ago.
Red dots are ok as long as they do not have a 4 moa dot this has given me and many shooters a problem when they cannot see the target because the dot is covering it up. They will work but is a hard skill to teach. Also don't shoot the red AQTs with a red dot don't ask me how I know this. I love the Eotech for Appleseed even though I don't have one, the 1 moa dot is great. I wish I had went with the Eotech rather than the Aimpoint micro myself. I believe scopes idealy should be of the 4x or less just like any rifle for Appleseed.
Nose to the charging handle absolutely, it is one of those little secrets that helps with consistency.
One thing we need to remember is like smwoody said a Rifleman should be able to pick up any rifle and shoot it well. It is not the rifle but the Rifleman behind the rifle that makes the hits. Appleseed is also a "run what you brung" event, we teach the shooter not the rifle. That is not to say that I haven't taken a ton of crap off of rifles to make them more Appleseed friendly. I still do not know what the fascination with vertical fore grips are, even in a CQB type of environment. ::)
All above IMHO. :)
,
What happened to the good old days when all you needed to be a Rifleman was a "Rack Grade" rifle that was cleaned and lubed, a sling, surplus ball ammo, whatever you needed to adjust your sights, and perseverance????
Quote from: Garand69 on November 28, 2010, 10:22:10 AM
What happened to the good old days when all you needed to be a Rifleman was a "Rack Grade" rifle that was cleaned and lubed, a sling, surplus ball ammo, whatever you needed to adjust your sights, and perseverance????
So true, It is not the rifle or the ammo. The Rifleman is what puts the rounds on the target.
I love the steel cased ammo myself, have shot thousands of rounds through my AR without any stuck or ripped cases. Sure a bad round every now and then. I have developed a love for the Tula ammo recently it is cheap, reasonable accurate and very reliable. Sure it is dirty but who cares I clean my AR after every 2000 rounds or so anyway.
You don't like the steel cased cheap stuff or your rifle won't shoot it send it my way I love it.
,
Quote from: Garand69 on November 28, 2010, 10:22:10 AM
What happened to the good old days when all you needed to be a Rifleman was a "Rack Grade" rifle that was cleaned and lubed, a sling, surplus ball ammo, whatever you needed to adjust your sights, and perseverance????
It may be an ideal that we strive for, but it is simply not the reality when we tell people to "Run what ya brung...". Many people simply do not own a M1 Garand, etc and just own a tacticool AR or a 10/22 that fell in a Tapco puddle and came out full of extra stuff... They are not going to go out and purchase a naked A2 configuration just to shoot an Appleseed... The same can be said about a 10/22 with a scope. Many of the people we are trying to attract already have scopes on their rifles and have no interest in taking a perfectly good optic off and go backwards by shelling out the cash for a set of Tech Sights..
Quote from: fepowered on November 28, 2010, 11:18:56 AM
Quote from: Garand69 on November 28, 2010, 10:22:10 AM
What happened to the good old days when all you needed to be a Rifleman was a "Rack Grade" rifle that was cleaned and lubed, a sling, surplus ball ammo, whatever you needed to adjust your sights, and perseverance????
It may be an ideal that we strive for, but it is simply not the reality when we tell people to "Run what ya brung...". Many people simply do not own a M1 Garand, etc and just own a tacticool AR or a 10/22 that fell in a Tapco puddle and came out full of extra stuff... They are not going to go out and purchase a naked A2 configuration just to shoot an Appleseed... The same can be said about a 10/22 with a scope. Many of the people we are trying to attract already have scopes on their rifles and have no interest in taking a perfectly good optic off and go backwards by shelling out the cash for a set of Tech Sights..
Your absolutely right FE! If someone owns a Tacticool rifle, bring it out, if someone owns a bare bones A1, bring it out, the point is bring it out. When a thread is full of "must haves", the "have nots" don't show up because they don't have this, they can't afford that, and if my rifle can't do it as is, why should I waste the money to go.
Quote from: Garand69 on November 28, 2010, 12:15:17 PM
Quote from: fepowered on November 28, 2010, 11:18:56 AM
Quote from: Garand69 on November 28, 2010, 10:22:10 AM
What happened to the good old days when all you needed to be a Rifleman was a "Rack Grade" rifle that was cleaned and lubed, a sling, surplus ball ammo, whatever you needed to adjust your sights, and perseverance????
It may be an ideal that we strive for, but it is simply not the reality when we tell people to "Run what ya brung...". Many people simply do not own a M1 Garand, etc and just own a tacticool AR or a 10/22 that fell in a Tapco puddle and came out full of extra stuff... They are not going to go out and purchase a naked A2 configuration just to shoot an Appleseed... The same can be said about a 10/22 with a scope. Many of the people we are trying to attract already have scopes on their rifles and have no interest in taking a perfectly good optic off and go backwards by shelling out the cash for a set of Tech Sights..
Your absolutely right FE! If someone owns a Tacticool rifle, bring it out, if someone owns a bare bones A1, bring it out, the point is bring it out. When a thread is full of "must haves", the "have nots" don't show up because they don't have this, they can't afford that, and if my rifle can't do it as is, why should I waste the money to go.
Of course. I think the point here is that Appleseed
can be done
without all the wiz-bang electro gadetry that we see everywhere. And even sometimes, that gadgetry can be a hindrance. But we'll improvise, adapt, and overcome, no matter what you bring.
Considering how few "rack grade" rifles there are at Appleseeds these days (rack grade by the CMP definition anyway) maybe that's not a description very many of the folks attending Appleseeds these days would recognize.
The sling, the sights, the techniques make it easier for new folks to hit the targets. Can some folks shoot very well without them? Depends on what very well means to them.
Every now and then my Dad tells the story of his Dad leaving the house one morning with seven .22 shells and his little single shot bolt action rifle. He came home that afternoon with four squirrels, two rabbits and a ruffed grouse. Seven shells, seven pieces of wild game for the table and everyone a head shot. No sling on the rifle, no peep sights and all shots were standing/off hand shots taken as he walked through the woods on the mountain above the house. Grand dad was in the 3rd US Inf. Div. in France in WW1 so he knew what a sling and peep sights were (they carried 03's in training and then got M1917 Enfields after getting to France). He just didn't like/use slings/peep sights for hunting. After using those rifles in combat I'm not sure what he'd think of an AR??
I still say if we could get small game hunters to realize a 1" square is about the size of a squirrel's head many of them could benefit from attending an Appleseed with their squirrel guns.
I like to see all this traffic on here. I will share a story about on of the full distance AQT's we shot few weeks back. I used my MP-15 that is nearly the same as my Army Carbine. vertical grip, Flashlight, Single point sling, and Eotech XPS 2-2. I shot it with all my "war" positions. I used the "fighting" stance for standing and assumed all positions Magpul style (read dropped in quick and painful) I even, dont freak out, put the magazine on the deck in the prone. I shot a 211.
A Fighting Carbine with Lights, lasers, etc is perfectly suited for an Appleseed if, its not your first time, and if you know your weapon. I have seen, as alot of you have, plenty of people having extra issues because they set up the gun using Slim's barbie Picture and not reality.
Bottom line Fella's is there are a lot, I mean a lot, of AR-15 users that are willing to pay thousands of dollars for classes that would benefit from a weekend at with Appleseed. We just have to make them more comfortable with us. They are accustomed to doing an AAR after each class which is valuable 7th Stepping. Hopefully, some of them see this and realize that they dont have to strip the gun for Appleseed but just drag some stuff from the closet to make sure it works.
Really.... hmmmm, thousands of dollars for training and here we are giving it away ++)
QuoteOld Dog said;
Considering how few "rack grade" rifles there are at Appleseeds these days (rack grade by the CMP definition anyway) maybe that's not a description very many of the folks attending Appleseeds these days would recognize.
The sling, the sights, the techniques make it easier for new folks to hit the targets. Can some folks shoot very well without them? Depends on what very well means to them.
hmmm well I suppose if we stuck with "Run what ya brung" or "bring your favorite rifle and learn to master it", the Rack Grade could be dropped....
But on another note, are we suggesting the only "Rack Grade rifles out there are M1's or M14 parts kits??? They're no "Rack Grade" AR's out there, what about 10/22's?? Heck Old Dog you may be right. there may not be any Rack Grade AR's or 10/22's out there....... And holy cow, I just thought of something... What is the oldest Surplus ammo available for an AR??? Heck even if that DEN 42 was stored perfectly, it lacks the technology used in loading LC 90 5.56, so it most certainly will not be as consistent... right???
So we have two major components in accuracy, barrel condition, and ammo quality, superior to the original "intentions" of early Appleseed... Right?????????
The story of your father is spot on, Folks back then used their rifles and hence they knew them... Does that mean we, as Appleseed instructors (with far more tools in the box than the teacher of your Father) cannot teach modern folks how to master their usually inappropriate rifle? I would also assume, your father's Rifle had crappy sights and he used the cheapest .22lr he could find at the store to fill the pot.... Why do I see so much Match .22lr ammo on the line?? As an Instructor... have I ever handed a kid some Match ammo? Yep, after they were in the 200's and only had an AQT or two left... Did that match ammo make them the rifleman? probably not, but they needed 4 more AQT's and there was only time for two, and yes a couple did hit Rifleman....
I also explained to them to practice more with what they got and don't worry about finding that ammo they just used to score Rifleman, It hasn't been made in 30 years.
We have been discouraging "gaming" the AQT for quite a while, why should we encourage "gaming" the rifle??? Shooters learn what works on their rifle partly by learning what does not. If we tell them that they can't do it with out Tech-sighs, or you'll never do it with that crappy Mod 795 trigger... they won't.
Then you get into the meat of the matter... I's not about hitting Rifleman the first time out. Heck I wish every Rifleman took 3 shoots, than they would have a chance learning what Appleseed is really about, and that isn't about shooting well, it is about waking up that sleeping American.
If we continue to put lists together about "What you need to make Rifleman" we will lose the those on the tight side of the budget, and those that show up on the loose side of the budget will leave the shoot discouraged because their $1000 10/22 or $1500 AR didn't net them a patch... Is this a good Idea ++)
There was an old article by Fred years ago regarding when you "need" match ammo or "need" a match grade barrel based on your AQT score, it was a good read, and all IIT's need to read it to realize that it is not what's hanging on the rifle, it is what's between your ears and the persistence of the shooter to make it work.
QuoteA Fighting Carbine with Lights, lasers, etc is perfectly suited for an Appleseed if, its not your first time, and if you know your weapon. I have seen, as alot of you have, plenty of people having extra issues because they set up the gun using Slim's barbie Picture and not reality.
Yes and No U.S.C
It depends on the teachable attitude of the shooter, and the ability of the instructor to get it across. I have seen lever actions, bolt actions and tube feds all score Rifleman, most with the crappy buck horn sights or even worse the Ruger Sights from the factory, and one without a sling at all. I'm confident, that all on them could take any rack grade rifle, clean and lubed, confirm the zero, and shoot Rifleman. I have seen a Mosin Nagant shooter just barely miss it, and what about the fact that the course of fire is based on the old Army AQT using bolt- actions??
How do you think the feller that used a match grade uber duper super poodle shooter while monopodin' would do with the same Rack Grade Rifle and surplus ammo?
It is great to encourage shooters to adapt their Rifle to work for them... at the Appleseed. It is a poor idea to put lists together with "What you need to get the job done" on the forum. Too many new shooters will either be turned off with the equiptment race and not show, or they will blame their missing Rifleman on the gear instead of where it belongs... The shooter themselves.
Encouraging the run what ya brung concept does make our job more difficult... but that is why Appleseed Instructors are the best.. Right?
By the CMP definition of rack grade there probably are no ARs out there that fit.
When I hear rack grade I know it won't have a synthetic stock, a $200 trigger, a bull barrel, an extended magazine release, etc., etc. None of that means they shouldn't bring it and learn to shoot it, it just means they could have bought a lot more ammo and got a lot more practice rather than trying to "buy small groups".
I've seen guys shoot rifleman scores with bolt action civilian hunting rifles - that means no 5 round clips to load half way through stage 2 and 3 - but single loading each round till the magazine is full and they can continue the stage. If their rifle/ammo is capable and they are willing to learn and put what they learn to use then they can shoot a riflemand score, even with rifle some folks may say aren't suitable.
The story about Grandpa was just a way of saying that there are a lot of folks out there with their .22 squirrel/rabbit rifles who would benefit from an Appleseed (or two) if we could find a way to get their interest. Then again, maybe these days, between the abundance of food at the grocery store and money in the checking account there may not be that many people still small game hunting with a .22. Oh, why headshots (1" squares)? Because it is a sure kill, it makes for easier/less messy cleaning and it doesn't mess up any meat that will be on the table that evening or the next morning (no, my folks didn't eat fried squirrel brains $$-0). And you can shoot small targets with whatever you've got if you know how to do it.
I don't even see to many ARs at Appleseeds these days. Didn't see a single one at the last Appleseed. Hopefully, as we have more full distance shoots that will change.
If you ask the boss I'll bet he'll tell you rack grade dates back to the early days of the RWVA/Appleseed when they were discussing .30 caliber rifles capable of hitting and destroying targets at long ranges. General issue (GI) battle rifles won't have match triggers, extended magazine releases, bedded stocks, etc. They are getting fancier these days (and capable of greater accuracy) but the guys/gals using them need better training on how to hit targets at longer ranges. Read the account of the Battle of Belleau Wood, France in WW1. The Marines with their "rack grade" 03 Springfields and issue ammo began killing the Germans at 800 yds. as they made several attempts to cross the field between them and the Marines. After several attempts they gave up due to their high casualty rate and reported the attacks had failed because they were facing a battalion of snipers. Today, what we hear/read about the M4's used by the military is that they are not up to the needs of 400 to 600 yd. shooting common in Afghanistan engagements. The AAR on Ft. Stewart training last year says the rifles and people are capable when they receive proper training but not everyone going over there is getting the training.
Have a good one.
I agree Old Dog, We need to encourage everyone to come out, and I would love to see more centerfires come out. That's why I am being such a pain in the neck here, just tell them to come on out, instead of telling them that they need an eotech or full float handgaurd etc. Just bring your rifle and 400 rounds of ammo that your rifle likes and have at it.
QuoteToday, what we hear/read about the M4's used by the military is that they are not up to the needs of 400 to 600 yd. shooting common in Afghanistan engagements. The AAR on Ft. Stewart training last year says the rifles and people are capable when they receive proper training but not everyone going over there is getting the training.
Old Dog I was one of the lucky one chosen to go to WSMR early this year. We were luckier than the Fort Stewart Crew because we had the same 50 soon to be SDM's for a week. Their M4's w/a variety of different optics that we had them take off for the first few days to learn Irons..... yes they were grumpy at first, but they carried on. Then some of us put their gear on to see what we could do to do better on position building (the vests and helmets were very much in the way of quality positions), we learned a few things and carried on. A few Soldier's even decided to stick with Irons out to 500yds, and they did very well despite the 25-35mph full value cross winds ;)
Last weekend we had several LEO's attend the Bonfield, IL shoot. All had those inappropriate M4's with all the bells and whistles on including single point slings. They wanted to leave the rifles alone, because that is the way they use them for work, so we taught them how to use the single point sling to steady the rifle, built their positions and hammered the 6 steps etc etc. Out of that we got 1 Rifleman and the rest greatly improved and very happy about the experience.
We encourage all to attend and to bring what they have. We then adapt to the shooter and to the shooters equipment. Whether it is a Soldier, a LEO or Joe the Plumber. And the end of that "First Appleseed Experience", they will have a better idea of what works and what doesn't, and if possible, will be better prepared for the next Appleseed.
U.S. Cavalryman,
Sorry for jumping all over your thread, but hope you see where I'm coming from. Let's just get the lines full, we can worry about the Rifle after it shows up O0
See you all on the trail ;)
Quote from: Old Dog on November 28, 2010, 01:00:52 PM
Considering how few "rack grade" rifles there are at Appleseeds these days (rack grade by the CMP definition anyway) maybe that's not a description very many of the folks attending Appleseeds these days would recognize.
Quote from: Garand69 on November 28, 2010, 11:24:16 PM
hmmm well I suppose if we stuck with "Run what ya brung" or "bring your favorite rifle and learn to master it", the Rack Grade could be dropped....
But on another note, are we suggesting the only "Rack Grade rifles out there are M1's or M14 parts kits??? They're no "Rack Grade" AR's out there, what about 10/22's?? Heck Old Dog you may be right. there may not be any Rack Grade AR's or 10/22's out there....... And holy cow, I just thought of something... What is the oldest Surplus ammo available for an AR??? Heck even if that DEN 42 was stored perfectly, it lacks the technology used in loading LC 90 5.56, so it most certainly will not be as consistent... right???
forum. Too many new shooters will either be turned off with the equiptment race and not show, or they will blame their missing Rifleman on the gear instead of where it
So we have two major components in accuracy, barrel condition, and ammo quality, superior to the original "intentions" of early Appleseed... Right?????????
It is great to encourage shooters to adapt their Rifle to work for them... at the Appleseed. It is a poor idea to put lists together with "What you need to get the job done" on the belongs... The shooter themselves.
Encouraging the run what ya brung concept does make our job more difficult... but that is why Appleseed Instructors are the best.. Right?
The current FAQ says nothing about "Rack Grade" rifle. The term will mean nothing to most people and for those who do, the use of the term by those at Appleseed does not make sense. We use the term as an ideal and a concept to embellish the skills of our Riflemen. It looks like we are trying to say that any Rifleman worth their salt can use any beat up worn out surplus rifle and shoot a 210 with it. The reality is that right now a relatively small percentage of shooters ever achieve Rifleman. Relatively very few Rifleman scores are achieved with factory iron sights. Of all our Riflemen, the majority are using a .22 which is in near new condition and capable of 2MOA or better groups from the factory and most all are using Tech Sights or optics. Most anyone with an AR15 has a rifle capable of 1.5 MOA or better groups. If you most of the program's Riflemen a worn out M1 Garand capable of only 4MOA groups, they would be in serious trouble.... Since the shooting is the hook and we are not trying to make snipers out of our shooters, we are still doing them a great service as they will have a lifelong marksmanship skill which will improve their general shooting proficiency.
Run what 'ya brung is fine as what they will bring is likely more accurate than a real live "rack grade" rifle.
QuoteWhat kind of rifle do I need? What kind of sights are allowed?
Appleseed is content-free, so in regards to sights: you can use any. Rifles? Well, you can use any safe firearm which can be accurately shot from the shoulder, from a .22 to a .32 (8mm). We're semi-auto and bolt-gun friendly. The important thing is that it works, so before you come to a shoot make sure you clean it, break it in (if need be), and lube it properly in preparation for the day. Due to the high cost of ammo, we reccommend using a .22 for the training on Saturday and if the range you are shooting at has a long distance range, then bring your center fire rifle for that on Sunday.
Quote from: Old Dog on November 29, 2010, 07:24:42 AM
Today, what we hear/read about the M4's used by the military is that they are not up to the needs of 400 to 600 yd. shooting common in Afghanistan engagements. The AAR on Ft. Stewart training last year says the rifles and people are capable when they receive proper training but not everyone going over there is getting the training.
The source of the problem with 6oo or even "only" 400 yds and a M4 with its 16" barrel is the M855 cartridge. The velocity loss is significant enough with the 4 less inch barrel that the terminal performance suffers. There is a difference between making a hit at that range and achieving the desired effect at that range. The problem has nothing to do with punching paper.
I intended this thread to actually not show that people didn't need to have bells and whistles. I have been reading a lot of the threads on here and you see things like you cant sling in with an AR and had to get shooter to go to irons. I simply wanted to get a thread going focused on the AR platform. I whole heartedly believe in getting people to the lines is the priority. And if someone with an AR comes to the forum looking at Appleseed and sees comments like "you need to get a battle rifle" or the previously mentioned phrases, its a turn off. Then they don't show.
We offer the BEST Basic Marksmanship instruction that I have seen. And we run off the "run what you brung" philosophy get them in the gate. I also understand we are here to Open eyes and get people off the couch. That's why I am here. I am also looking at the AR forums with more people logged in than we have registered on this forum. And on the average, there are more people looking at Hardware items than our Most Ever number. The "modular" factor of the AR is a big selling point. People like to Pimp their AR and are proud of it. Same sort of Culture as cars. Latest Mod, or trick one off piece brings people around.
I am by know means trying to game the AQT. I don't like the amount of hints we give them all ready. But, I also don't want people to show at an event unprepared and wouldn't expect anyone else to either. The harder they work for something the more it means.
No, I don't want an equipment race, or to discourage anyone from attending an Appleseed. I have been 7th Stepping with instructors from those 1000 dollar classes to get them to suggest Appleseed as a Primer for their classes. Which, while not on a high level, is going on.
I want to get to those People who have an AR, who prior adding all the bells and whistles, come out learn what we teach and apply it to all to their life.
I like that this has gotten so much attention. And I don't want it to look like I didn't Check my Ego at the door. I am just passionate about this subject. I am attempting to Stay on Mission and fill the lines.
When it comes to the guys with all the accessories on their rifles, there are couple varieties: some are noobs who just bought the stuff because it looks cool or because their buddy told them it is what they need. Then there are the more or less serious guys who are into tactical competitions like 3-gun, and/or attend tactical carbine classes, or military guys who have their own rifle set up like their service rifle, or police who are using their "patrol carbine." These guys usually have their rifles set up the way they do for a reason... they are set up primarily for CQB shooting, and they are attending Appleseed to brush up on the fundamentals and learn some "precision marksmanship" skills to make themselves more competitive on the smaller and longer range targets.
For the noobs, I always try to get them to take the junk off and try a GI web sling. For the serious tactical shooters, I usually suggest that they initially do the same thing, just so they can get what an ideal sling-supported field position SHOULD feel like, before incorporating all their gear. That way they know what they are trying to achieve, and how much of a compromise they might be making with some of their equipment.
Sometimes you get guys who have their rifle set up a certain way, and just want to practice shooting it the best they can with that setup. That is fine -- we are run what you brung, after all -- so I help them apply the fundamentals to their equipment the best they can.