Has anyone used the Mossberg M-44 that the CMP sold for years for an Appleseed?
How many mags did you have for it? That is the kicker here, they only hold 8 rounds per mag and they are in excess of $35.00 PER MAG for the reproductions. No one has seen an original in years, even Havlin Sales, the Mossberg Collectors Org and collector parts people.
It is otherwise ideal, and this is more or less what it was designed for, it would be GREAT to put it back to that use.
Buckshot
I agree. The M44 is simple, strong, good sights and accurate. The problem for me with any bolt action is keeping up with timed fire. Wish I knew where to find additional mags at a reasonable price.
Don't know about the magazine issue but the AQT has been in use since the 03 Springfield was the US Army battle rifle. It may take more practice to get smooth and accurate with it due to the manual operation of the bolt but there are folks doing it. I saw a guy at the Wicen's Farm Appleseed in PA last spring with a bolt action Glenfield with 5 rnd. magazines (he had spares) wearing out the 1" squares and then the AQTs.
Practice to get better is a fact of life with any pursuit.
Buckshot, whats a good price for a working magazine for those rifles? I'll keep my eye out when I go to the Richmond, VA gunshow this weekend.
Ask farmer about using a bolt gun on the AQT. I don't think he owns a semi-auto of any kind. I've never seen him shoot one, and he lives just a couple of miles from me.
He did shoot in the 230's with a Ruger 77/22. He could get 10 rounds down range in about 35 seconds, and only drop a couple of points.
I used a Chinese bolt .22 at Osage Beach. Had trouble with the sights(since cured), but was still able to work within the time limits. Just keep practicing.
smle
Quote from: M1A4ME on January 28, 2008, 09:26:25 AM
Don't know about the magazine issue but the AQT has been in use since the 03 Springfield was the US Army battle rifle. It may take more practice to get smooth and accurate with it due to the manual operation of the bolt but there are folks doing it. I saw a guy at the Wicen's Farm Appleseed in PA last spring with a bolt action Glenfield with 5 rnd. magazines (he had spares) wearing out the 1" squares and then the AQTs.
Practice to get better is a fact of life with any pursuit.
Buckshot, whats a good price for a working magazine for those rifles? I'll keep my eye out when I go to the Richmond, VA gunshow this weekend.
M1A4ME,
The REPRODUCTION mags are $35.00 each from Brownells. Anyone that qualifies for discount with them gets them a little cheaper (I don't want to give out how much) but they are still expensive!
I have never seen an original, let alone one for sale, so I have no idea what an original would go for.
They have three strikes against them. 1. They only lasted for a few rifles, they had been replaced by the time the M-44 US was replaced with the post war 144-LS. 2. The magazines are complicated as they have a full length removable threaded rod and other things that are to let them feed longs and shorts. It screws in the base and goes right up through the follower! 3. They were not that good a design, the latch was ON THE MAGAZINE instead of on the rifle, the rifle just has a steel tab with a square hole for the latch to snap into.
And finally, the real problem. These were Military Production and stamped US Property. So the military had them and the magazines. The military DID NOT store them together. The rifles remain but the magazines have been gone for years!
I never had trouble with a bolt gun on the National Match course, Winchester Target Rifle, US Springfield or US Enfield. The M-44 is not that slick, but should not cause a problem if I could afford the mags to feed it.
Buckshot
You only need 2 mags total. I went to appleseed with a bolt action .22 and had a 5 round mag and a 10 round mag. All of the drills we did were fire 2 rds, reload, fire 8. I never actually loaded either mag to full capacity because we never fired more than 10 rds and always had a reload thrown in.
I'd say get one more mag and get out to the Appleseed nearest you. Nothing feels as good as qualifying as a Rifleman with a bolt action ;).
$35.00 isn"t that bad really
Quote from: BoltGuy on February 10, 2008, 12:03:31 PM
You only need 2 mags total.
Depends on the Appleseed. Come to Proctor, VT, you're going to want 4 10 round mags. We do Rapid Fire AQT's, and they call for 40 rounds in 4 to 6 minutes.
Quote from: BoltGuy on February 10, 2008, 12:03:31 PM
You only need 2 mags total. I went to appleseed with a bolt action .22 and had a 5 round mag and a 10 round mag. All of the drills we did were fire 2 rds, reload, fire 8. I never actually loaded either mag to full capacity because we never fired more than 10 rds and always had a reload thrown in.
I'd say get one more mag and get out to the Appleseed nearest you. Nothing feels as good as qualifying as a Rifleman with a bolt action ;).
BoltGuy,
I know that feeling! Shot the NMC with a .30-06 Winchester Target (post '64, pre '68, low value rifle) and it was fun.
I would have to buy TWO mags, the CMP sold them off with NO magazines. I bought a couple for it, but a guy wanted them so bad that he paid me OVER retail because he wanted them right then, and I have not gotten them replaced yet.
2 & 8 would be pushing it right to the max, they are 8 round mags IIRC, and that is the ONLY size available.
Buckshot
Quote from: SGTCap on February 10, 2008, 12:39:45 PM
$35.00 isn"t that bad really
SGTCap,
No, $35.00 isn't too bad, but look at what BoltGuy said. That sounds more like $70.00.
Or look what Nickle said, that sounds more like four for $140.00 (32 rounds) or five for $175.00 (40 rounds).
That is way out there for a rifle that only cost me $75.00!
Buckshot
Remember that not ALL events will have you doing Rapid Fire AQT's.
Yes, those mags are pricey. I've got a Rem 513-T, and the going price for those mags is $20 at gun shows. So, I buy slowly and when I find a deal.
You will likely want 5 mags, if you're going to do R/F AQT's. Just buy them over the course of time.
And, if you're up my way, we'll just hand you a loaner LTR. They've got everything you need, including 4 mags.
Quote from: Buckshot on February 11, 2008, 02:59:59 AM
Quote from: SGTCap on February 10, 2008, 12:39:45 PM
$35.00 isn"t that bad really
SGTCap,
No, $35.00 isn't too bad, but look at what BoltGuy said. That sounds more like $70.00.
Or look what Nickle said, that sounds more like four for $140.00 (32 rounds) or five for $175.00 (40 rounds).
That is way out there for a rifle that only cost me $75.00!
Buckshot
$250 bucks still sounds like a good deal for a good shootin 22 with 5 mags. If it came from CMP I assume its a good shootin 22, but I have no experience with them.
Yeah, it isn't that bad of a deal. CZ rimfire mags are $25-$30 per mag... if you can find them. I had to buy mine used because CZ seems to only make a few every now and then.
Hmm... We didn't have that rapid fire AQT when I went to Appleseed. Sounds fun though. Good thing I've got a Garand now(clips are maybe a buck a piece or you just order ammo from CMP that in clips).
I wouldn't suggest investing over $100 in mags for a .22 just for Appleseed. I'd save that money for another rifle and/or centerfire ammo. Heck, a 480rd case of .30-06 is $110 from CMP. That could be enough for an entire Appleseed.
Quote from: Nickle on February 11, 2008, 10:45:22 AM
Remember that not ALL events will have you doing Rapid Fire AQT's.
Yes, those mags are pricey. I've got a Rem 513-T, and the going price for those mags is $20 at gun shows. So, I buy slowly and when I find a deal.
You will likely want 5 mags, if you're going to do R/F AQT's. Just buy them over the course of time.
And, if you're up my way, we'll just hand you a loaner LTR. They've got everything you need, including 4 mags.
Nickle,
Thanks most kindly for the offer of the LTR.
I have one (LTR) about 3/4 done based on the Mossberg 702 Plinkster. Have the rifle, have 5 10 round mags for it. Have the Williams FP-TK Scope Rail sight mounted on the receiver. Have the sling swivels (Enfield No 1 surplus). Working on getting the sling swivels on, need to be mounted to aluminum rod inside the composite stock and then the rod epoxied in. Have to put on a higher front sight. Getting ready to get those parts. Probably use a ramp of some kind to screw on in the place of the Mossberg sight and a Lyman 17a sight of the correct height.
I just thought it would be nice to put those M-44US rifles back to what they were designed for, much as M1A4ME is doing with a Remington 513-T.
Can't commit yet to either of those in Ohio, though I AM working on helping get shooters there and trying to get it worked out to get myself there too.
Buckshot
Buckshot, sounds like you've got a good plan. Far better than most folks have, too.
Seeing that you've got the 702, I wouldn't get crazy buying mags for the M44, other than making sure you've got enough to keep it going for the long term. If you were to shoot a R/F AQT, you could hjust use the 702, and be set.
And, so you know, M1A4ME isn't the only 513T fan here. I've got one I used to shoot Smallbore Postal matches with. I've been buying mags for it, slowly, but constantly.
My hat is off to the folks that can do the appleseed with a bolter. I have enough trouble with a semi.
Quote from: Nickle on February 12, 2008, 10:17:45 AM
Buckshot, sounds like you've got a good plan. Far better than most folks have, too.
Seeing that you've got the 702, I wouldn't get crazy buying mags for the M44, other than making sure you've got enough to keep it going for the long term. If you were to shoot a R/F AQT, you could hjust use the 702, and be set.
And, so you know, M1A4ME isn't the only 513T fan here. I've got one I used to shoot Smallbore Postal matches with. I've been buying mags for it, slowly, but constantly.
Nickle,
I did not manage to snag a Rem 513T when the CMP had them. I was in a "cash slump" when they came out and they were gone before it cleared!
I did bag the M-44 earlier and one of the best deals they ever had going, the H&R M-12 (aka the H&R 5200 for those few sold commercially) that went brand new with new Olympic Smallbore front and Palma rear sights for $300.00
Not going to be doing much at an Appleseed with a single shot, though, even a 14 lb single shot!
I also have a beautiful Winchester Model 52 of the pre-alphabet type, and a 5 and 10 round mag for it. Just don't want to bring it out and put it through the ringer, too much of an heirloom to want to beat it up like that any longer.
Buckshot
Quote from: raf on February 12, 2008, 04:53:55 PM
My hat is off to the folks that can do the appleseed with a bolter. I have enough trouble with a semi.
RAF,
Really not that big a deal, the NRA only gives you 10 extra seconds for 10 rounds with a bolt action and they are basing that on using stripper clips for the reload!
With a little training on proper bolt operation you work bolt without bothering your position too much (with centerfire you work the bolt while the rifle is in recoil, loosing no time at all, but this doesn't really apply in rimfire) as long as you are slug up correctly and just keep on trucking.
Buckshot
Quote from: Buckshot on January 28, 2008, 04:51:28 AM
How many mags did you have for it? That is the kicker here, they only hold 8 rounds per mag...
7 rounds. They hold 7 rounds.
Just the other day during the Rimfire Sporter match at the Western Games I realized Mossberg probably chose 7 rounds instead of 8 or 6 because that way there was only 1 left over round from a box of 50, and you were going to have dropped one in the dirt while loading & had to forego shooting it anyway... And only putting in a 5 round mag in a stock that deep would have been just wasteful...
The magazines are
frightfully expen$ive for what is otherwise a budget rifle. But that was probably part of the plan; don't forget, O.F. Mossberg made "Good guns at a good price" and coming out of the Depression, a repeater design that was cheap to produce because a chunk of the complexity was "subbed out" to the magazine was probably just the ticket, since most of the expected purchasers would only ever use the one mag that came with it. Then when Uncle Sam came knocking, it made even more sense: they could produce the rifle to meet Sugar's price directive, and make it up on the magazines later which likely weren't subject to the same audit controls. This is all guess work, but it fits Occam's Razor so I'm willing to accept it as a working hypothesis... ;)
Brownells no longer has any M42/M44 magazines, since they got them from Havlin's anyway. My brother & I are about to order several each, since you can get them 3/$100 from Havlin. Tell him I sent ya... :D
One note on the repops: sometimes the witness hole on the side isn't punched cleanly and hangs up on the mag well cover when trying to remove the magazine; a few minutes w/ a file will cure that right up, and to all intents and purposes you have an original Mossberg magazine [since Havlin probably had original drawings to work from when contracting for them.]
I have used the Mossberg M44 for an Appleseed and an Appleseed Boot Camp.
It takes practice to get smooth at the bolt action movements with minimal break of position. Lots of practice.
I used two magazines and had a spare available.
I used a Mossburg 44 US at my first Appleseed in Auburn, IN this last May. It was almost boring to shoot it so I switched to my M1 Garand after lunch. The 44US has a smooth action, good trigger, decent sights, and uses the GI web sling. Plenty accurate for 1 inch squares.
If the action is a little rough, just cycle the action about 10,000 times, don't dry fire too much though, unless you modify the chamber edge so the pin doesn't touch it.
Count your shots, and leave the bolt closed on the last fired case. If you do this, the mag will fall out when you press the release. With the bolt open, the mag has to be dragged out and will slow you down in the rapids. Without a bolt hold open device, you have to count your shots anyway..... I have two mags only. I think I got the extra one from Gunparts. I think they still have them?....
Probably the ugliest 22 I own, but I love it because it is a genuwine Military rifle.
The Mossberg M44US magazines are intended to hold 7 rounds..BUT...
You can load 8 in them, and they will load with 8... IF you have the bolt open and back.
Load one with 2, then one with eight... for Transition stages. It can and has been done.
Only thing is, not sure how over taxing the spring on these magazines will fare in the long run.
I only do it on my RePop magazine from Brownells, not my 2 originals I got from the CMP when I ordered the rifle.
I also got lucky and got a Drilled and Tapped receiver, so the Havlin sales Scope mount fits to it.
I attached a 2.5x20 Westernfield scope to it. Works great, not too much zoom, has fine crosshairs and sharp scope picture.
If I can ever get some trigger time at an Appleseed instead of Instructing or shoot bossing, I would love to run it through it's paces on an AQT... :'(
One of our own California instructors (Lavatech) used his M44US to shoot his rifleman score in Piru, CA. I think he shot high 220's... :~ :~
QuoteNot going to be doing much at an Appleseed with a single shot, though, even a 14 lb single shot!
I don't know about that.. I know a fella that shot a 214 with a single shot bolt action... #) Most "target" .22s that I've seen have a sweet loading ramp that facilitates relatively quick loading.......unlike Grampas Remington 514 that needs to be fed into the chamber...
Wheeler44
Hmmm,,,,
seem's that I remember timeing and scoring a guy useing a single shot .22 and him scoring 214.
Wade
don't get hung up on 2 & 8 loading of the mags.....5 and 5 works just as well and is how you do it with an '03 and strippers.
try it with a rifle that has a 4 round mag...FN PBR, no matter how you do it you have an extra mag change.
you can shoot a rifleman score even if you don't get all rounds off on stages 2 & 3. You can't drop any in stage 4 though.
one day I am going to attempt the AQT with a rolling block, I believe it can be done.