Below are a couple photos of collapsible target frames I made for known distance shooting on steel targets at Appleseeds. Steel is SO much quicker for known distance shooting...but it has to swing for hits to be spotted with the naked eye. Probably need 1/4" steel for 22LR hits to showup at 100 yards. These frames are made entirely of 1/2" rebar. The main inverted-U that is the backbone of the target is made from a 5' piece of rebar. It is scalable for whatever size you need although you'll likely want 5/8" rebar for 20" D-targets. Total cost of this target frame is about $10, not including the target plate or labor. I put about 4 hours into the first prototype...about 2 hours into the second (the one with the hangars). I think I could build them in about 1.5 hours now....which puts labor at about $60 per target...but of course you can't count that for hobby welding....expecially my cruddy welding.
Target plates shown are 1/2" thick 10"x10" AR400 plates. Really too big for these frames but they're what I had on hand for demo purposes. Going to try these out in Raton this weekend with Dan, Gill, and Alan using some of their steel plates.
(http://img801.imageshack.us/img801/9510/p9070034.jpg) (http://img801.imageshack.us/i/p9070034.jpg/)
(http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/849/p9070035.jpg) (http://img163.imageshack.us/i/p9070035.jpg/)
(http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/2669/p9070037.jpg) (http://img843.imageshack.us/i/p9070037.jpg/)
(http://img841.imageshack.us/img841/7538/p9070038.jpg) (http://img841.imageshack.us/i/p9070038.jpg/)
-David
Edgewood, NM
Targets Stands look very nice and portable.
Are you sharing your design or offering to make them?
Or both.
Very nice and looking forward to using them this weekend!
Those are superb! I would love to get my hands on a set of the stands.
Quote from: Xeyed on September 08, 2010, 03:52:40 AM
Targets Stands look very nice and portable.
Are you sharing your design or offering to make them?
Or both.
May make a few for the New Mexico contingent...otherwise just sharing the design...not that it's particularly unique. No way I would try and make these things for anyone but a buddy I could scam out of some beer & ammo...too much of a PITA.
Nicest thing about this deal is that it's made entirely of 1/2" rebar...which is cheap...and a little bit of 1/2" black pipe.
For design dimensions, if you want them, here goes:
Inverted-U: made from 5' of 1/2" rebar bent at 23" from each end.
Secondary legs: 1/2" rebar 24" long
Pipe sleeves connecting secondary legs: 4" long pieces of 1/2" steel pipe
Secondary leg braces: 1/2" rebar 10" long welded diagonally to leg & pipe sleeve
Secondary leg stops: 1/2" rebar 3/4" long welded 10" from top of Inverted-U
Secondary leg T-pegs: 1/2" rebar 4" long welded in center (tap into dirt to prevent rotation)
Hole drilled just below Pipe Sleeves to accept 8d nail as a pin to lock the unit together.
Hangars: made from 2" 1/2" steel pipe with 7" of bent 3/8" rebar (bent at 2") used for hooks.
All welded up with 6011 3/32" welding rods on 50amps DC...easy welding.
-David
Edgewood, NM
New one made tonight for Alan. Much more expensive to make though due to 5/8" Rebar and much larger dimensions. Takes 2 sticks of 5/8"x10' Rebar and one 1/2"x10' Rebar to build...plus about 18" of 3/4" black steel pipe.
This one is 36" wide and will accomodate a full sized 20" wide D-target with room to spare for misses. 42" high on the U-frame. 42" support legs. 2 16d nails hold it together.
Really like those stands.
How difficult is it to learn to weld, good enough to make one? I've seen 110V Electric welders at Harbor freight for $89.00. Would that be capable to weld stands like these?
Know that I would need some accessories and some practice. But welding would be a good skill to learn.
Or am I wasting my time/money?
Quote from: Xeyed on September 09, 2010, 01:31:33 AM
Really like those stands.
How difficult is it to learn to weld, good enough to make one? I've seen 110V Electric welders at Harbor freight for $89.00. Would that be capable to weld stands like these?
Know that I would need some accessories and some practice. But welding would be a good skill to learn.
Or am I wasting my time/money?
Welding is alot like anything else...it's not really difficult to do the job good enough...but it takes an amazing amount of skill to do it REALLY WELL. I'm in the good enough category. The easiest welding is wire welding and yes one of the basic Harbor Freight welders will do the job. The under $100 ones really have a limited duty cycle so you'll have to spend a lot of time waiting for it to cool. A Lincoln or Miller "cracker box" is another good way to start and they have a better duty cycle but they're stick machines (which I like)...a lot of times you can find them used on craigslist. I'm using a Miller AC/DC 250 amp welder which is about a $500 rig. I suggest getting a book on welding (that's what I did)...you can teach yourself to be good enough...but if you want to really good, practice a lot and take some community college classes.
I'm sure you could weld up something like these target stands after a day or so of practice. They're simple really...basic triangles mostly. Key thing to learn about welding is penetration and puddle. You have to keep after the puddle and you have to make sure your weld is penetrating both pieces of metal you are trying to weld together...otherwise you are just putting a weak scab on top. You can see this through your facemask so it's not any kind of hocus pocus. And I'd suggest going with something that welds with 220Volt. You can get a plug adapter to plug it into your dryer plug. Or just install a 220V plug & circuit in the garage...that's what I did.
-David
Edgewood, NM
Speaking of scamming friends out of beer and ammo... ::)
Give me a holler bud. I'd like to make something like that for my two ar400 plates and would love to have your expertise involved in making them if your game. I'll bring the beer and a bandoleer of 308. (So that means your scamming me right? **))
You have inspired alot of interest in your inventions David. Looks like your going to get alot of beer and ammo! Those are sweet :cool2: Let us know how they work out at Raton.
Ryan
David,
I like your frame design, easy to store everything and you have the option to stick it into the ground for more support. Well done!
It looks like you are using nails to hold it together, hitch pins on cable lanyards would be nicer.
How large do you intend to make the 100yd. rimfire plate? I currently use a 4"x4" steel plate to practice at both 77 meters and 100 meters offhand.
Quite a challenge.
You did well David, I may have to steal the design and make some more spinners for myself.
Quote from: BobABQ on September 09, 2010, 11:39:28 PM
David,
I like your frame design, easy to store everything and you have the option to stick it into the ground for more support. Well done!
It looks like you are using nails to hold it together, hitch pins on cable lanyards would be nicer.
How large do you intend to make the 100yd. rimfire plate? I currently use a 4"x4" steel plate to practice at both 77 meters and 100 meters offhand.
Quite a challenge.
You did well David, I may have to steal the design and make some more spinners for myself.
Thought of the hitch pins too...just didn't have any of them laying around the house. They'd have to be small. Holes are just large enough on the bigger target for 16d nails.....8d nails on the smaller ones. Rebar is pretty much pot metal so I was reticent to weaken it further with larger holes for more serious pins.
100 yard plates that Alan has are 4 and 6 inches.
Are you going to be able to help IIT the Albuquerque shoot here in November? Or Rio Rancho in October?
-David
Edgewood, NM
Rebar is actually A36 mild steel. It isn't pot metal when you consider it is used for concrete reinforcement you can't use crap steel.
Quote from: BobABQ on September 10, 2010, 01:24:44 AM
Rebar is actually A36 mild steel. It isn't pot metal when you consider it is used for concrete reinforcement you can't use crap steel.
Ever welded on any of it?
I have. It isn't the easiest thing to weld. (It kept blowing apart as I welded it.)
If I understand correctly they usually tie them together with wire and just spot weld them but I could be wrong... :-\
The steel in re-bar is readily weldable, the surface scale is what causes most of the problem. It's not worth the time to grind the scale off and do a proper joint preperation due to the uneven surface. Try 1/8" 6010 and crank up the amps around 70-85. It welds a lot like 6011 but performs better on dirty surfaces like scale,rust,paint. As long as you can strike an arc it will burn thru it.
Quote from: duc-dog on September 10, 2010, 09:52:51 AM
The steel in re-bar is readily weldable, the surface scale is what causes most of the problem. It's not worth the time to grind the scale off and do a proper joint preperation due to the uneven surface. Try 1/8" 6010 and crank up the amps around 70-85. It welds a lot like 6011 but performs better on dirty surfaces like scale,rust,paint. As long as you can strike an arc it will burn thru it.
Yeah, I just prep the end of the piece that butts into the other piece. Rarely if ever brush off the crap on the other piece. That's the beauty of 6011 or 6010...they both will burn through rust pretty well. Unlike 7018 Low-Hydrogen... which requires a totally clean surface. I was welding rebar to fairly thin pipe so I kept the heat down to about 50 amps DC and used 3/32"s. Also, 3/32 6011s were all I had...try to keep my rod supply to a minimum since I don't have a rod oven.
My real problem with rebar is that it gets really brittle after you heat and bend it...not so much with welding on it. When I make stakes with a bent over top to tie rope to, after pounding them a few times, they'll sometimes break at the bend. Now I don't know a lot about steel but I though heating it and slowly letting it cool annealed it and made it more flexible....but maybe I'm heating it so hot to bend it that it's oxidizing or something?
Thanks for the comment, Duc-dog.
-David
Edgewood, NM
Quote from: NMMI9100 on September 10, 2010, 10:03:09 AM
My real problem with re-bar is that it gets really brittle after you heat and bend it...not so much with welding on it. When I make stakes with a bent over top to tie rope to, after pounding them a few times, they'll sometimes break at the bend. Now I don't know a lot about steel but I though heating it and slowly letting it cool annealed it and made it more flexible....but maybe I'm heating it so hot to bend it that it's oxidizing or something?
You are on the right track with your equipment and your methods are sound.
For stakes; try welding a washer in place or cut and weld a piece onto the stake, or bend the angle on the stake and weld a straight piece in line with the stake to beat on. When you heat and bend steel at a sharp angle you are bending the grain of the metal (think wood grain) then when you beat on the bend it it just cracks. The beauty of using re-bar is that you don't have to worry about hardening or annealing. All of your low carbon steels can't be hardened with just heat.(or annealed) If you are using a coal fired forge to heat your metal you might introduce enough carbon to surface harden the steel, but not likely enough to make a difference with out a long soak time. If you are using a torch make sure you have a neutral or slightly reducing flame so that you don't oxidize the steel. All of this is way to technical for re-bar. It just is what it is. Good job on the stands and the more you work with a material the more quirks you will discover and tricks to work around them.
Milt
Milt
Quote from: duc-dog on September 10, 2010, 11:47:34 AM
Quote from: NMMI9100 on September 10, 2010, 10:03:09 AM
My real problem with re-bar is that it gets really brittle after you heat and bend it...not so much with welding on it. When I make stakes with a bent over top to tie rope to, after pounding them a few times, they'll sometimes break at the bend. Now I don't know a lot about steel but I though heating it and slowly letting it cool annealed it and made it more flexible....but maybe I'm heating it so hot to bend it that it's oxidizing or something?
You are on the right track with your equipment and your methods are sound.
For stakes; try welding a washer in place or cut and weld a piece onto the stake, or bend the angle on the stake and weld a straight piece in line with the stake to beat on. When you heat and bend steel at a sharp angle you are bending the grain of the metal (think wood grain) then when you beat on the bend it it just cracks. The beauty of using re-bar is that you don't have to worry about hardening or annealing. All of your low carbon steels can't be hardened with just heat.(or annealed) If you are using a coal fired forge to heat your metal you might introduce enough carbon to surface harden the steel, but not likely enough to make a difference with out a long soak time. If you are using a torch make sure you have a neutral or slightly reducing flame so that you don't oxidize the steel. All of this is way to technical for re-bar. It just is what it is. Good job on the stands and the more you work with a material the more quirks you will discover and tricks to work around them.
Milt
Milt
Ah, I love Appleseed! Where else can you get this kind of technical conversation pertaining to a target stand? O0
NMMI, I hope you understood all of that cause I need you to teach it to me. I've just used a mig welder and even though I have it I have never tried the stick welder... I need to broaden my horizons.
Thanks for the education.
I think that we all learned a lot here. I know that I've learned more about welding rebar in the last 24 hours since I asked my question.
David, those are just too purdy! :) Duc-dog, you got a welder? Maybe we need to gather materials and have a target stand building party one of these days....O.L.
Quote from: oladcock on September 13, 2010, 01:35:32 AM
David, those are just too purdy! :) Duc-dog, you got a welder? Maybe we need to gather materials and have a target stand building party one of these days....O.L.
sheeesh....any excuse for OL to have a party.....
Quote from: oladcock on September 13, 2010, 01:35:32 AM
David, those are just too purdy! :) Duc-dog, you got a welder? Maybe we need to gather materials and have a target stand building party one of these days....O.L.
Thanks OL. Bring BEER and Rebar! For some reason, when I get done welding for a couple hours, about 2-3 beerz hit the spot. Maybe they just drown the spot.
Just got in from Raton and unpacked. About 1:15a local time...so I think I better go to bed.
-David
Edgewood, NM
The targets worked perfect. Easy to use, set up and transport. O0
The steel was a big hit with both the CF and RF shooters on the KD portion of the AS. :~