Since the number of them we're seeing at Appleseeds would tend to indicate that they are becoming a fact of life, anyone have any suggestions for teaching shooters who are attached to these things?
Standing positions doesn't seem to present any problems (and may even be helpful), but they don't appear to be of any benefit in the seated or prone positions, and they get in the way of using the non-trigger hand in the 'regular' way.
Ideas ?(and, no, telling the shooter to get rid of it is not what I'm looking for)
Move it back far enogh that you can get your hand betwwen the VFG and the front sling mount. THats what I did on my SBR and it seems to work.
I'm not sure it's an accuracy enhancing device so much as a handling factor (or even a "cool" factor). Some of the AR ones have a little bipod that pops out of the bottom to support the front of the rifle in prone (or seated at a table).
We aren't teaching movement to contact (or away from it for that matter) or combat in a built up area, or how to control a full automatic assault rifle, etc. so I'm not sure that a vertical grip is gonna help anyone shoot better at long range. On many rifles (the AK's??) the vertical grip is part of the foregrip and cannot be removed. On the AR's it just screws loose and can be removed and I think we should encourage them to remove it (they may not want to but that's their choice).
I'll bet a lot of the ARs that have the vertical foregrip also don't have a 1& 1/4" GI sling on them either. Folks want the "look" they see on TV and magazines enough to put a pistol grip on it they probably want one of those "combat" slings also and most of those only hook to the rifle in one spot (back near the butt stock or the back of the receiver).
If its mounted correctly it's most likely in the way of proper sling use and hand placement on the horizontal forearm. I'm not sure you can get someone into a good sling supported position without moving, or removing that vertical grip.
Sorry, I don't see an easy fix if the grip is left in place.
Quote from: M1A4ME on January 06, 2008, 09:45:05 AMSorry, I don't see an easy fix if the grip is left in place.
Me neither.
Only suggestions I can make:
1. Demonstrate by example that the "big kids" don't use them.
2. Let the mall ninjas figure out for themselves that the things are just getting in the way.
Quote from: Snake45 on January 06, 2008, 10:23:05 AM
Quote from: M1A4ME on January 06, 2008, 09:45:05 AMSorry, I don't see an easy fix if the grip is left in place.
Me neither.
Only suggestions I can make:
1. Demonstrate by example that the "big kids" don't use them.
2. Let the mall ninjas figure out for themselves that the things are just getting in the way.
You need to go tell Ranger Batt. that "big kids don't use VFG" and see what happens :-\
Its real simple. Slide the thnig back to make room for your hand if you want to leave it on. There is a reason they were developed and became popular, and i don't think "Mall ninja-ing" was it.
I would encourage people to leave it in place or adjust it to where they can still sling up. I wouldnt want to get in the habit of taking it on and off depending on what kind of shooting I was doing. There may come a time that I don't have that option and I just need to make the shot RIGHT NOW.
M1A4ME the reason most ARs dont have 1 1/4" GI slings on them is that while they are outstanding for aiding in accuracy they lack severly in aiding weapons retention. The world is much more focused on gear and tactics for CQB right now and not so much on marksmanship. Perhaps if we make some small adjustments (mostly in attitude) we can embrace that instead of constantly snearing at it.
Edit to add:
Look at it this way. The guy that shows up on the firing line with a "mall-ninja" AR has set his weapon up for CQB. He may have even taken some classes on the subject. What if we approach him from the angle that he is already familiar with shooting from point blank to 50 to 100 meters, now we are going to teach him to stretch it out 300-500 meters with that same rifle. All it might take is a few equipment adjustments here or there and all the sudden his effective area has just increased expenentially.
I hate to break it to a lot of the minamalists but if we can appeal to the Tacticool crowd you would probably up the attendance rate A LOT. Its 10am Eastern time right now and there are 5000+ people on ARFCOM at the moment. If we could tap into even a portion of that crowd we would meet attendence goals with ease. THe way to do it however is not by trying to change their equipment or refer to them as "Mall-ninjas". If you can convince them that you are trying to expand on the skill set they already have (or think they do) instead of developing an entirely new one. You may be surprised at the result.
Go to a defensive carbine course to learn your AR (or whatever) from across the room, come to Appleseed to learn it out to 500meters. ;D
Thats what I am, a minimalist.
I have a hard time not letting my predjudice show when I see a rifle with all that stuff hanging off of it but STGCap has a point. These guys may not shoot rifles the way we do but they are shooting rifles and they damn sure outnumber us. We should work to convince them that they would benifit from an Appleseed by extending the range of their rifle.
VAshooter
How tall are you Bravo?
I only ask because I wonder if it is an arm lenth issue. I'm between 6'5 and 6'3 depending on how the wife is treating me and I find it more comfortable to have a VFG a couple inches ahead of the magwell. My elbows feel like they are cramped in too tight when I hold onto the magwell. ???
Again whatever makes people warm and fuzzy is cool by me. As long as it works for you I don't care how hits are made :-\
Cap, OK, now THAT makes sense.
I'm the national average, 5'6". I can see how adding more arm length might 'cramp things up' for you. GOOD CALL!
FWIW, I run a Sully stock on my ARs (shorter than an A1 stock) too.
Acoutrement is as easy to come by as a credit card. Marksmanship, however, can't be bought and bolted on. It's neither necessary nor perhaps feasible for any one shooting outfit to teach every aspect of rifle shooting, from CQB to NRA Highpower and all points in between.
Appleseed curriculum is narrowly focused, and transmits skill within its intended scope:
Effective use of a military pattern rifle out to 400 yards.
The aparatus of the CQB, or any, rig may become a hindrance outside the parameters for which they were designed. So no rifle rig is optimized for all shooting situations.
I'd sure want to know, on a paper range, how well I can expect to do with a CQB rig at (AQT) extreme ranges, like 400 yd. Anybody who's draft age might find out exactly how that goes, but on the two-way range.
Anyway, Appleseed gives the tactical crowd a chance to verify their short range, and find out their long range, hit probabilities. It behooves them to learn their effective range, same as everybody else.
And high long range hit probability will only come with time, effort and practice, maybe even more so for tactical folks, than for unadorned battle rifle shooters.
No doubt you'd learn something about your MBR if you tried to run it in a CQB course of fire.
But all rifle shooters should have a solid grasp of rifle shooting fundamentals, and the ability to demonstrate such proficiency with the AQT. That's what the service expects you to be able to do before advancing the training into other areas, like close quarters.
Have a tactical shooter type who's disdainful of Appleseed, or at any rate doesn't see any value in it?
I certainly hope that's because they have their rifle shooting fundamentals so well nailed down that they could step up and fire a rifleman's score on demand.
Either way, AS confirms that they're on track, or else jolts them with the realization that there's significant skill to be learned yet. Whichever is the case, it's worth it to find out/verify from time to time. The AQT is no respecter of persons, and gives it to you straight.
Quote from: Grin Reaper on January 07, 2008, 11:13:37 PM
Ahem.
QuoteI would encourage people to leave it in place or adjust it to where they can still sling up. I wouldn't want to get in the habit of taking it on and off depending on what kind of shooting I was doing. There may come a time that I don't have that option and I just need to make the shot RIGHT NOW.
It looks to me like moving the VFG back towards the magwell should give the average Joe enough space up front to use the fore-end to support the rifle. SGTCap, is this what you're describing?
Yep. Like I said I'm a tall dude and mine is only a few inches in front of my magwell. Unless you have ape hands (and mine are pretty big) you can still hasty sling properly and get your hand locked in on the weapons forearm without an issue.
Most people I know that have run VFG a lot have theirs setup in a similar manner. Having it way out at the end of the rifle tires your shoulders quickly even if your a tall guy.
On problem you will run into is where the sling mounts in the front. A lot of people have there sling mounts at the 9 O'clock instead of the 6 O'clock ( My CMMG upper is that way). That problem I have not yet worked out :-\ Mine will be getting changed to a 6 o'clock mount but I dont know what I would do with someone that showed up on the line with a 9 o'clock sling mount.
QuoteMost people I know that have run VFG a lot have theirs setup in a similar manner. Having it way out at the end of the rifle tires your shoulders quickly even if your a tall guy.
Makes sense.
QuoteOn problem you will run into is where the sling mounts in the front. A lot of people have there sling mounts at the 9 O'clock instead of the 6 O'clock
AK & SKS slings attach there, too. Shouldn't be as big a deal on the AR, since much of the problem is the tendency to cant the rifle due to the side-mounted sling -- just use the trigger hand on that handy pistol-grip to counter this.
Vertical Fore Grips do have their uses. They are good for firing a submachinegun from the hip (the M3 is already a bullet hose). They are also good for Close Quarters work.
Now, they aren't so hot for longer distance stuff, and I doubt I would ever warm up to one (even when we go from M16A2's to M4A1's in my state). But some folks like them.
Now, there's been some very good comments on why we really should be treating some of the CQ Carbine folks better. They will attend our events, but, not if they figure we're a bunch of Fudd's that are going to look down our noses at them because their AR has everything but the kitchen sink.
there is a way to use these and benefit from it's existance on float tube/hanguard
Assuming M4A2Carbine with rifle length hanguard/float tube
1. Carbine needs full length (rifle length 11.5 inches) float tube or hanguard with four picatinny rails
2. Sling mounted at muzzle end of float tube/handguard in 3 O'Clock postion
3. Vertical grip preferrablly one with slant set about two-two and half inches from muzzle end of handguard
4. Web sling reversed "clip" on front sling swivel that is at the 3 O'Clock position
5. What I call the pressure clamp end of the web sling fed through the slot on collaspable stock (NOT the sling swivel on the base of the collapsable stock) actually goes around the buffer tube...most of the stocks come with this option.
You basically reverse the manner in which you would traditionally use the sling once "off the butt stock"
Works for CQB while slung on the carbine (behind the neck) and when the sling is properly used for sitting or prone the vertical grip now becomes a handy little hand stop (ROCK SOLID), just like the ones on my benchrest rifles. I'll be happy to send photos if anyone wants them.
If using carbine handguard/float tube and standard mounting points I do not know of a way to accomplish slung positions except for hasty.
Hope this helps.
I guess it was obvious but I'm left eye dominate so long guns get used leftie...just switch the clock to 9o'clock for you normal folks....you guys probably thought I had lost it..
anyway it works (for me)
I was trying to figure out the three o'clock thing and imagine the dynamics... 9 makes more sense... well, kinda, but would you mind posting some pics?
couple of pics
in position kinda sorta
this is all I have now....can get other angles if you woudl like
After looking at the picture that skydog was posted, with proper place of the grip may help lock the supporting hand in the same position to help with NPOA. But may need to be marked for different placement for off hand and sitting.