where should they start?
More specifically, what equipment do they need (at least to start) and how should they practice?
Back-story: So I finally went out and dropped the dough for a carry pistol and an EBR. I know ammunition has gotten very expensive, and I'd like to shoot a good bit, so reloading seems like it would be a good investment. Thing is, I've never seen it done, and I don't really know anyone that does it--though I'm sure there are some around Savannah that do.
So, I'd like to start reloading .223. I figure the best thing to do would just be duplicate existing loads for now till I have the procedure down, then maybe start looking into very gradual modifications later on. Does that sound like a good plan?
Thanks
You might strike up conversation where you buy your firearms and
equipment to find someone willing to invite you into the world of
loading. Not rocket science, but there will be many questions that
poke up it's head ??? Seirra used to have a hotline for loaders, and
larger stores and sports shows held clinics. Number one easy, is find
a loader, read books on this subject matter (some libraries have many
books on this subject). Always pay attention to what you are doing and
keep written records on your loads even if you follow their recommandations.
:)
http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=275.0
some info from another thread on reloading for the .223
as far as equipment goes? I think Lee probably makes the cheapest (not necessarily in how it's made, but in price) reloading equipment. I've been buying Lee die sets lately and have not had an issue after resizing a couple thousand (or so) .308 and 30.06 brass. Haven't got around to seating any bullets yet (soon though).
You need to get a reloading manual or two and read the parts about the reloading process.
cases and bullets can be found at various places on the internet.
Good luck.
The Lee single stages are the least expensive route. They sell a kot but I would fork over another $20 for a digital scale. I'm getting started on reloading too, and the initial investment and learning kinda sucks.
Quote from: icebrain on January 05, 2008, 04:43:41 PM
where should they start?
More specifically, what equipment do they need (at least to start) and how should they practice?
Back-story: So I finally went out and dropped the dough for a carry pistol and an EBR. I know ammunition has gotten very expensive, and I'd like to shoot a good bit, so reloading seems like it would be a good investment. Thing is, I've never seen it done, and I don't really know anyone that does it--though I'm sure there are some around Savannah that do.
So, I'd like to start reloading .223. I figure the best thing to do would just be duplicate existing loads for now till I have the procedure down, then maybe start looking into very gradual modifications later on. Does that sound like a good plan?
Thanks
First of all, I believe that most tactical firearms trainers do not recommend carrying reloaded ammunition in a carry gun. The reasons are many and a lot of them have to do with legal issues in the event you were ever unfortunate enough to have to use it for defense.
Practice / range ammo is another matter. If your reasons are for the sake of economy consider that case lots of 9mm, 40 S&W and 45 ACP from Wolf and S&W can be purchased for little more than you can purchase the components to assemble your own and without the expense of investing in reloading equipment. The cost of Brass, Powder, Primers, and especially bullets are rising in cost just about as much as the cost of loaded ammo.
The same can be said for 223 ammo from the same sources.
Reloading is not difficult to do. It does require doing the proper things in the proper manner and with care (safety rules), and a little workmanship skills, that is very easy to learn. It allows you to customize your ammo to your gun or for a specific purpose. You won't find any 30/06 125 gr. Ammo loaded to the 1200 - 1800 fps range to use for short range, small game or introducing juniors or ladies to center fire, but you sure can mix up a batch of your own on your reloading machine.
The basics for reloading are contained in all of the commercial manuals (not so in the freebies). I occasionally clean out my library of older items by taking them to our clubhouse and placing them in the reading rack. It just so happens that I have a few of those items right now for my next trip to the gun club http://www.hcgc.net BTW and if you PM me an address I'll ship you a slightly used Nosler Hand loading Manual # 3. It will tell you what you need to know as to "How" and the type of equipment you need. I'm not necessarily recommending this as "the manual", only offering it to get you started.
I suggest you visit Mike Dillon's website http://www.dillonprecision.com/ and consider his equipment if you are interested in a progressive (high speed, high volume of ammo) reloading machine.
Both Redding and RCBS make quality equipment, Redding generally being slightly more expensive.
Redding is here: http://www.redding-reloading.com/
And RCBS is here: http://www.rcbs.com/
I do a lot of shooting, several thousand rounds of both handgun and rifle every year. These are the loading machines I have settled on after over 50 years of going through a lot of "stuff".
STAR Progressive for 45 ACP (No longer made, limited to one cartridge).
Dillon RL550B (used for all handgun except 45 ACP)
Mec Super 600 for 12 ga shotgun.
RCBS Rock Chucker for Rifle ammo.
There are a lot of smaller items you will need, too many to list here. They will be discussed in the Reloading manual and all can be viewed on the web sites above.
Hope this helps you
Yeah, I'm looking into this as a way to reduce my range and practice costs, especially with the .223... I've heard the advice about not carrying reloads before, and I'll stick to production stuff for that.
Invest in quality tools which will give you decades of trouble free service. Avoid the cheapest tools, they will not last. You will never regret buying quality tools.
You will need the following:
-Reloading manual, RCBS or Lyman are good. Manual will describe the entire process, and offer a lot of reloading data. Use published reloading data.
-Reloading press, single stage works, but is slower; progressive presses cost more, but are better for high volume. Single stage is adequate for most people.
-Sets of reloading dies, one for each caliber;
(Get a small base full length resizing die set for your 5.56,
and for pistols, get carbide resizing dies- avoid steel pistol resizing dies)
-Primer seating tool; here I like the Lee press-mounted version better than the hand-squeeze types because it's less fatiguing for you.
-Powder Scale, with weight capacity of at least 500 grains.
-Powder Measurer, adjustable
-Casing Trimmer
-Casing mouth chamferer, primer pocket chamferer or primer pocket swager
-Set of calipers capable of measuring to nearest 0.001 inch
-Vibratory casing tumbler and media
-Notebook to write things down; keep track of your load recipe and results, and the things you learn.
Components, for 5.56, are very easy to find online, and the best economy comes with buying in bulk for slugs, powder, primers, and casings. Buy primers 5000 at a time. Buy powder in 8lb kegs, four kegs per order typically gives the best value. Wideners and Pat's are good sources for 5.56 components.
Finally, get a local friend to reload with you during your first few sessions to show, not tell, how to do things.
Realize that you're investing in your future shooting by laying out several hundred dollars for equipment, and several hundred more for components. Sound like a lot of money now? What might happen to the price and availability of components after the next election? Get it now; the hardware will be your kids' inheritance, and the components might disappear from the market, so stock up while they're here.
In my previous, I just mentioned the harware and components. There's a third, essential leg in the reloading tripod: Process. You are your own quality control department. Your reloads will be as safe and effective as your level of care. Some mistakes are inconsequential, but others can blow up your rifle.
For example, failing to put any gunpowder into one of your cartridges, attempting to fire that cartridge lodges a bullet inside your barrel. Dud, you think. Racking your action, you chamber and fire a live round behind your obstructed bore, blowing up your rifle. Or assembling a batch of rifle ammunition with pistol gunpowder instead of rifle powder, what you've done is assemble a whole batch of ammo capable of exploding your rifle. Don't listen to the radio, watch TV, or tolerate any distractions while reloading.
Driving is dangerous, but you still do it because you're careful, right?
Reloading, like walking across the street, is also potentially dangerous. Don't let the fact that you might get injured or ruin a rifle keep you from reloading, though. Reloading, you face exactly the same risks as you face from factory ammunition, because they can, and do, mess up too. Be clear that your actions are the most important factor in the safety and quality of the ammunition you assemble. Check, check, and re check if need be every step you do.
For example, some steps may only get one quality check, like primer seating depth, which I check once per cartridge. For others, I do redundant checks, like powder filling. I visually verify that every 100-block of cartridges have been filled with propellant two consecutive times prior to passing them along for bullet seating. Also compare the propellant fill level of the cartridges, looking for variation that suggests an underfill.
I dial in the amount of gunpowder required, verify three times that it's the correct weight at the start of the session, and every hundred cartridges I weigh the powder charges again to make sure the amount metered is still right.
All of the necessary quality is within your control to achieve, but set out to do so, develop good habits, and never take shortcuts. You can't afford to have one bad round, but with time and care can prevent them. I've never assembled a bad round yet after two decades, but easily could if I got sloppy.
And, don't smoke nor allow anyone who does into your loading area!
Quote from: Spatulaman on January 05, 2008, 08:59:14 PM
And, don't smoke nor allow anyone who does into your loading area!
Was it a bad idea to clean spilt powder with a vacuum? ???
I don't think smokeless powder is as sensitive to static as gas or black powder but I wouldn't do it. I don't believe it would explode but if it started to burn it would probably catch the bag and most of what was in it on fire which would probably be followed by the plastic housing of the vac. catching fire. Could be interesting. If I spill powder I sweep it up and burn it to make sure I eliminate any potential for ignition/fire later.
icebrain, when I stared reloading I purchased a Lee Anniversary set, which I still use. It also comes with an manual and I did have a friend show me how. Since then I've added some things. Like digital scales, powder trickler, upgraded to a better metering system.
One thing I do different from everybody else, I don't charge a number of cases then seat the bullets. I charge the case, then seat the bullet in that case. No missed cases and no double charges. Yes, it's a lot more time consuming but I don't worry about bad things happening. At least in that catagory.
Not only can reloading save you money in thelong run, it can be really enjoyable and rewarding.
Good luck
smle
Quote from: M1A4ME on January 05, 2008, 11:14:22 PM
I don't think smokeless powder is as sensitive to static as gas or black powder but I wouldn't do it. I don't believe it would explode but if it started to burn it would probably catch the bag and most of what was in it on fire which would probably be followed by the plastic housing of the vac. catching fire. Could be interesting. If I spill powder I sweep it up and burn it to make sure I eliminate any potential for ignition/fire later.
Yeah, tried it (the shock thing). Couldn't get it to ignite with a lighter (no flame, just the spark), or a stun gun. I did get it to ignite with a Jacobs ladder at about 750kv (this is the spooky looking thing you see in the movies when you see mad scientists 2 electrodes in a v configuration with a spark dancing between them). Black Power ignited with the lighter spark ;D
Amazon has a book called the ABCs of Reloading. It is about $15. It doesn't go into fancy stuff, but it will get you started.
http://www.amazon.com/ABCs-Reloading/dp/0873498518/ref=pd_sim_b_img_4/103-5768448-9824642
http:
Quote from: Francis Marion on January 05, 2008, 08:46:54 PM
In my previous, I just mentioned the harware and components. There's a third, essential leg in the reloading tripod: Process. You are your own quality control department. Your reloads will be as safe and effective as your level of care. Some mistakes are inconsequential, but others can blow up your rifle.
For example, failing to put any gunpowder into one of your cartridges, attempting to fire that cartridge lodges a bullet inside your barrel. Dud, you think. Racking your action, you chamber and fire a live round behind your obstructed bore, blowing up your rifle. Or assembling a batch of rifle ammunition with pistol gunpowder instead of rifle powder, what you've done is assemble a whole batch of ammo capable of exploding your rifle. Don't listen to the radio, watch TV, or tolerate any distractions while reloading.
Driving is dangerous, but you still do it because you're careful, right?
Reloading, like walking across the street, is also potentially dangerous. Don't let the fact that you might get injured or ruin a rifle keep you from reloading, though. Reloading, you face exactly the same risks as you face from factory ammunition, because they can, and do, mess up too. Be clear that your actions are the most important factor in the safety and quality of the ammunition you assemble. Check, check, and re check if need be every step you do.
For example, some steps may only get one quality check, like primer seating depth, which I check once per cartridge. For others, I do redundant checks, like powder filling. I visually verify that every 100-block of cartridges have been filled with propellant two consecutive times prior to passing them along for bullet seating. Also compare the propellant fill level of the cartridges, looking for variation that suggests an underfill.
I dial in the amount of gunpowder required, verify three times that it's the correct weight at the start of the session, and every hundred cartridges I weigh the powder charges again to make sure the amount metered is still right.
All of the necessary quality is within your control to achieve, but set out to do so, develop good habits, and never take shortcuts. You can't afford to have one bad round, but with time and care can prevent them. I've never assembled a bad round yet after two decades, but easily could if I got sloppy.
Couldn't agree more!
This is why I recommend people move to a progressive as soon as it makes sense. I know, conventional wisdom says learn on a single stage so you learn the steps - OK, but people get bored quick, and a single stage is lots of repetitive steps, so the PEOPLE screw things up. I do a fair amount of handgun stuff (IDPA, USPSA) and in 10 years, ALL of the squibs and doubles (may be 2 dozen squibs and a couple of doubles) I've seen were done on single stage presses. Doesn't mean you can't do it, means that the machine forces a little more process and lowers the odds of a problem.
You don't have to go all out and spend $1500. There are lots of progressives that can be had for 200 - 300.
I reload on a somewhat professional basis, and I'll say that Francis Marion pretty well covered the subject.
Some folks like Lee equipment. My opinion on Lee varies based on exactly what item we're talking about. I am an RCBS kind of guy.
I will say that Lee's primer seaters are about the best out there. Their decapping tool (recommended if you reload 7.62 NATO/,308 or any foreign military caliber) is another nice item (but you won't really need it with the .223). Presses, buy an RCBS RockChucker to start with, and maybe a Dillon later.
If you go the Dillon route, to get it fully set up for rifle ammo, you WILL need to get the case trimmer ($$$), or do what I do. I primarily use a couple of single stage presses for loading ammo. I size with the RockChucker, then trim (I use a drill press and a Forster http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=721759 (http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=721759)). To start with, I suggest a http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=269638 (http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=269638), unless you already have a drill press. I then deburr the case mouth, anneal (if needed), prime, add the powder, and seat the bullet. I use a Lyman Spartan press (IIRC, out of production) for bullet seating. It's smaller and more accesible than the RockChucker, and I can run large runs of ammo in smaller batches, without constant setup change.
Well, I ran some numbers (ever the engineer...) and came to a conclusion or two:
In my current situation, and considering I'm in a cramped apartment with little room to work, reloading isn't for me right now. I put together a spreadsheet that calculates how long I spend at work to pay for factory ammo vs. the time spent for reloading (both the loading itself and working to buy the supplies), and unless I can do 250+ rounds/hour (including collecting the brass, cleaning/prep, and the loading) it's not worth it on the "how much can I shoot" basis. I know there's some accuracy benefit to be gained, but I just don't think I'm good enough for that to matter yet.
Once I have more space (probably not for another year or two, ie when I buy a house) I may get started... but for now, I'll just stick with factory stuff. I may still save the brass (when I don't shoot the really cheap stuff) for later, unless someone wants to buy it from me along the line.
Thanks to all for all the advice, though; I may yet make use of it one day.
The way I got started was this:
Case trimmer, and vibratory cleaner and media. Then I began to prep cases like a fiend so that I had something like 4 thousand ready to go by the time I got around to getting the dillon 550b that I use to do the assembly.
I like to use the dillon case guages to see if I got the dimensions right in my prep.
Also, I mark the cases that pass inspection with a sharpie......
I now load in batches of 4 or 5 hundred to assure the most complete focus possible.
Elsewhere on this board are lifetimes of info....
Enjoy yourself. Nothing like using the fruit of your own labors to convert money into skill......... ;D
Ditto what nickle said.
I never heard of a "case" ga. until recently. I put 8 resized pieces of brass in an M1 clip, insert the clip and hand cycle them through as fast as possible. If they all go in/out and the clip pops out after #8 I figure they are good to go.
For one reason or another I have never, (3 rifle calibers/9 different rifles and three handgun calibers/8 handguns) never had an issue with my reloads not chambering properly. Seems like some folks do though. Maybe it's because I usually buy guns that are well broken in.
Quote from: icebrain on January 13, 2008, 08:06:57 PM
Well, I ran some numbers (ever the engineer...) and came to a conclusion or two:
I put together a spreadsheet that calculates how long I spend at work to pay for factory ammo vs. the time spent for reloading (both the loading itself and working to buy the supplies), and unless I can do 250+ rounds/hour (including collecting the brass, cleaning/prep, and the loading) it's not worth it on the "how much can I shoot" basis. I know there's some accuracy benefit to be gained, but I just don't think I'm good enough for that to matter yet.
Oh, I guess I forgot to tell you that hand loading is almost never a money making proposition when you're reloading military cartridges and factor in your time. As with just about everything in manufacturing nowadays, labor is THE primary cost component. And since it is "hand loading" ("reloading" is sticking a fresh mag in the rifle ;D ) it is a manual process, which means a fair amount of your time.
Let's hit a few of the other reasons to handload:
1) Availability of a particular load
Let's say your gun (or what you want to do with it) requires very heavy, or very light bullets. This is usually hard to find at any price. If you're shooting a military load, your are pretty much not shooting heavy or light bullets, you are shooting the "standard".
2) Tuning/accuracy
The most obvious issue here is distance from bullet to lands. Some rifles are very sensitive to this. Military rifles are not usually so sensitive - they are typically machined with a large gap any way. Different powders can also have a great effect on accuracy (this has to do with barrel vibration), again, in many military rifles, there are other factors that negate any gains you might get here.
3)Continuation of supply.
For obvious reasons, this item is probably of big interest here, but is also a factor for the guy shooting bug holes at 500 yards from a bench. Manufacturers discontinue/modify loads (bullet/powder/prep specs) all the time. This may change the POI or group size in your rifle.
OK, so I guess I should say it a different way - hand loading will not save you money when you are comparing it to the cheapest class of ammo (military calibers, and or true military surplus). Your economics are competing with a high degree of mechanization and with huge economies of scale. You ain't gonna come out ahead reloading 9mm, 223, or 308 in military weight bullets. You might come out close to even if you don't factor your time (legitimate approach if you don't have the option of working extra hours for your employer to feed your habit).
Although ammo prices have been rising, the equation still holds. The way things are going, It won't be too long before it flops. The price increases are from more than just the increase in materials - demand for loaded rounds is up because of the conflicts and the UN is doing a good job of cutting off the flow of surplus from government arsenals.
But, as soon as you want something a little less common/or more specialized, you're good to go. Go price a box of hunting 44mag cartridges - maybe $25 for 50? Now we can save some cash. I can buy all the components and make that load for probably $8 - 10 per 50. Go look at 20 rounds of good 300WSM. Same answer. If you shoot a 300 Weatherby, well, you'll pay in the area of $50 or $60 for 20. I shoot IDPA (competition handgun stuff) and my favorite load is what would be called a subsonic machine pistol load if you bought in commercially. We're talking a 147gn slug around 825fps. That stuff is $17 - $20 per box. I make it for about $5 per box. A little cheaper than Winchester white box, and a little more than something like Wolf, but those are NOT same load (lots more recoil and blast).
What do you mean by "before it flops"? Does that mean those common rounds will come down again, or that they'll get ridiculously expensive?
And military rounds are all I'd be reloading... .223 and eventually (hopefully?) .308. I've heard 9mm is so cheap you don't even win on cost alone...
Another reason to reload is because it's fun! ;)
One very good reason to begin to learn to reload and to stock of on the raw materials now is to be prepared for a possible day when either the cost or the availability of the raw materials makes buying complete shells impossible for you. Does that mean you'll be able to continue to go to an Appleseed and shoot 400 rnds. a weekend? Probably not. But those 400 rnds. could be the difference between surviving or not.
The sky isn't falling, but it never hurts to know what to do and to be ready to do it if it should fall.
Quote from: icebrain on January 14, 2008, 12:52:35 PM
What do you mean by "before it flops"? Does that mean those common rounds will come down again, or that they'll get ridiculously expensive?
And military rounds are all I'd be reloading... .223 and eventually (hopefully?) .308. I've heard 9mm is so cheap you don't even win on cost alone...
Not trying to make a prediction -
"flop" meant that surplus and low end ammo are still cheaper than reloading it yourself. Maybe they are equal if you scrounge brass. But add in your time and the economies of scale from buying semi loads (or ship loads) of brass, powder, primers and bullets swamp you. You don't come out ahead.
At some point, IF low end ammo gets ridiculously expensive then the equation "flops" and reloading may be cheaper. This will probably be the result of taxes and bans (artificial price increases). You will never be able to produce cheaper than an ammo company can - given that they can buy the materials cheaper than you can.
Quote from: M1A4ME on January 14, 2008, 07:25:44 AM
I never heard of a "case" ga. until recently. I put 8 resized pieces of brass in an M1 clip, insert the clip and hand cycle them through as fast as possible. If they all go in/out and the clip pops out after #8 I figure they are good to go.
For one reason or another I have never, (3 rifle calibers/9 different rifles and three handgun calibers/8 handguns) never had an issue with my reloads not chambering properly. Seems like some folks do though. Maybe it's because I usually buy guns that are well broken in.
Well, there are several reasons for gages. Making sure the round will chamber is one. They also check headspace. If you adjust the die incorrectly, you can move the shoulder back too far, creating too much headspace. This can be dangerous.
Headspace is the dimension that keeps the round from wiggling too far front to back in the chamber. The brass stretches when it is fired. Too much headspace and brass has to stretch past it's elastic limit and gives up before the chamber wall stops the expansion. The shoulder gives way and KA-BOOM - you've got hot gases flowing back into the action. This is especially a concern in military rifles as the chambers are usually a bit on the generous side for reliable chambering of the rounds. Hunting and target bolt guns have tighter chambers and so are not as sensitive to headspace issues.
Gages also give you a quick visible check to see if the brass is too long (i.e. needs to be trimmed). Drop a properly sized case in and (for a rifle) if the mouth sticks out, the case is probably too long. For a pistol, look for the head to be sticking out the back and the case is too long (though I NEVER trim pistol brass).
Quote from: icebrain on January 14, 2008, 12:52:35 PM
At some point, IF low end ammo gets ridiculously expensive then the equation "flops" and reloading may be cheaper. This will probably be the result of taxes and bans (artificial price increases). You will never be able to produce cheaper than an ammo company can - given that they can buy the materials cheaper than you can.
No, I can't produce it cheaper than them, but I can produce it cheaper than they sell it and more accurate to boot. ;D
Look at the wideners web site for lee reloading products, find some one else that is local to you and do a group purchase, that way 2 people can split the cost or better yet 3 or 4. The mistake I made was buying the pro 1000 in 223 instead of getting one that could load 308 and 30-06 so now I have the load master set up for 308 and 30-06 and the pro 1000 in 223.
Son of Martha made a trip up there and we did a group buy and saved on haz mat fee and shipping
icebrain,
I suggest you have another look at the Reloading section of the forum as many of these topics have been explored several times already and there's a bunch of good info to be gained, if you take the time and do some reading.
Good luck, Sir.