http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/01/magazine/01Appleseed-t.html?_r=1&hp
The video is good, the article has more a slant which is kind of expected considering the source.
Agree about the video. The article is a huge disaster.
Quote from: colycat on July 29, 2010, 08:56:21 PM
Agree about the video. The article is a huge disaster.
It is an opportunity to talk to people about who we really are as opposed to nobodies. Opportunity knocks!
Techres
The photo slideshow is good too.
http://www.nytimes.com/slideshow/2010/07/27/magazine/20100801-appleseed.html
O0
Overall, considering the publisher, I thought it was a plus.
Surprised ?
This is the New York Times after all.
One of the most Liberal, Progressive and anti-gun newspapers in the country.
There is a comments section at the bottom. But please be professional and put the heritage side and getting 'people off the couch' message across.
I agree with 4bfox. Net positive.
Could've been worse. They seem to focus on 'the dark side' too much. I only ran into one PX general at a shoot.
First impressions --
It's not as bad as I expected. It's pretty clear what story they wanted to tell, but they had to personalize to even get that far.
I got a big laugh out of the "uniformly White" comment on the first page. At the shoot I worked last weekend, half of our line was Hispanic, over half was female, all shooting well and having a great time. Knew our history better than any other bunch of first timers I've run across, too.
We can learn from this article. Read carefully all the little things they try to play "gotcha" with, and then correct them if they come up at our events.
Finally, think about it this way: This is the worst they can write without making things up out of thin air. We can win this. Keep our house clean, stay on mission, stay on message. Some newspapers badmouthed John Hancock, too. Nobody is perfect, after all. ;)
Quote from: colycat on July 29, 2010, 08:56:21 PM
Agree about the video. The article is a huge disaster.
I agree. I was talking with a fellow Shoot Boss about an hour ago.
He made 2 comments that summed it all up.
"There was not one positive thing about Appleseed in the article."
"It was like getting raped and thanking the bastard for using a condom"
Just think about all the people that have never heard about AS that will be reading that soon. Who said "all publicity is good publicity."
Exactly....if this is the WORST that the NYT can do.....well you know the rest
pb
This article was very poorly written, a 6th grader would do better, rambling on, twisting and jumping from topic to topic. It will give us some good exposure, though. Those who never heard of us may be interested and attend, and those who hate liberty and are anti gun will not have their minds changesd by a NY Times article, especially since it was so poorly written.
I think most people will just watch the video or slide show, rather than wade through 6 pages of crappy writing.
To me, it seemed more about some Appleseeders than Appleseed. The author tried to weave a lot of things in. Hopefully some people go to our website and learn more about Appleseed.
Classic line from the article: "a brigade from the Second Engineer Battalion"
Being fairly new to Appleseed (10 months), I found the parts of the article about Fred and why he started the program (assuming that they were true) very interesting. The rest of the article was so far out of touch with reality that it was almost funny. (I said almost) The video was a little better but not much. Both clearly had an agenda that they wanted to convey. They missed a great opportunity to convey what Appleseed is about.
Theri
Quote from: theri on July 29, 2010, 11:17:06 PM
Being fairly new to Appleseed (10 months), I found the parts of the article about Fred and why he started the program (assuming that they were true) very interesting. The rest of the article was so far out of touch with reality that it was almost funny. (I said almost) The video was a little better but not much. Both clearly had an agenda that they wanted to convey. They missed a great opportunity to convey what Appleseed is about.
Theri
Being around appleseed since 2006, I found the parts of the article about Fred and why he started the program (assuming that they were true) very interesting. For that alone, the article was worth it to me! And yes, the real article was: Why are people flocking to this program?
Techres
Quote from: Rocket Man on July 29, 2010, 10:27:54 PM
I got a big laugh out of the "uniformly White" comment on the first page. At the shoot I worked last weekend, half of our line was Hispanic, over half was female, all shooting well and having a great time.
This would be a good thing to expand into several sentences (if you want), and email to them...
Like "the writer can't report what he didn't see, and he sure didn't see all the Appleseeds around the country. Why this last weekend, the one I was at in XYZ..."
Quote from: Fred on July 29, 2010, 11:25:54 PM
Quote from: Rocket Man on July 29, 2010, 10:27:54 PM
I got a big laugh out of the "uniformly White" comment on the first page. At the shoot I worked last weekend, half of our line was Hispanic, over half was female, all shooting well and having a great time.
This would be a good thing to expand into several sentences (if you want), and email to them...
Like "the writer can't report what he didn't see, and he sure didn't see all the Appleseeds around the country. Why this last weekend, the one I was at in XYZ..."
Actually I'm about to send the following to the Editors -- they have a 150 word maximum policy, it's a tough limit.
"Dear Editors:
Your 29 July article on the Appleseed Project is wrong in one key respect - it portrays the Appleseed Project as fomenting resistance against the Government, or even preparing for revolution. Nothing could be further from the truth.
The history and heritage presented at Appleseed involves, among others, the story of Paul Revere. Despite his amazing story, Paul Revere was a virtual unknown in the early Republic. His star did not rise in the public consciousness until 1861, when he was immortalized by Henry Wadsworth Longfellow. His poem, "Paul Revere's Ride," was published specifically to UNITE the country by reminding us of our heritage, in hopes of avoiding the looming Civil War. While no civil war threatens today, the message remains important.
After the Revolutionary War ended in 1783, the Founding Fathers ensured that no future Revolution need ever occur by giving us tools to take part in, guide, and limit our government, not to destroy it at a whim. Revolt is utterly contrary to their wishes, and utterly against what we stand for and teach.
Sincerely,
Ryan Mackey, RWVA Instructor"
(contact info follows)
Everyone..remember this is the Times.....
If you want to see the mountain look at the comments..but also realize that the readers are a small subset of the country. It is a shrinking news outlet with a predictable readership. Don't get your undies in a twist. There is a reason an article was done...it is because we are growing and it serves their political purposes to make right wing America scary and crazy. Take it as a very high compliment and SOM.
I know who we are and what our mission is.....have some faith. We resonate.....all across this land
If I had told any of you that 2 years ago that both the Washington Post and the NYT would write multi page articles on the program would you have believed it ?
TV is next so get in the mind frame NOW
This is what happens to successful effective programs congrats to all !!! Huzzah
pb
Hello All,
After reading the article, watching the video and the slide show, this article was a hit piece against AS and every American that understands the principles on which our Republic was founded.
Question, who reads the New Y0rk Times? Me thinking......... definitely not American families that believe in principles on which our Republic was founded.
Question #2, considering that NYTimes is known to be very, very biased regarding truthful journalism and leans towards an ideology that does not even come close to reflecting the average American's idealogy on how our nation should be directed, why are we giving propaganda cronies within NYTimes even a second of our time?
I know with absolute certainty that Fred with the agreement of the RWVA Steering Board to do this interview spoke the truth about AS.
BUT, the spinsters in NYT have spun it, like they always do, this includes almost EVERY mainstream media medium, especially newspapers and the cable TV programming networks.
In my opinion, the article was not an absolute failure.
Everyday Americans are becoming very aware that they cannot trust mainstream media for truth, whether it be the newspaper, TV or the internet.
This why the alternative news sources on the internet are blossoming......and thank goodness!!!!! O0
As a result, IMHO, we, as Americans need to do everything in our power to ensure the internet remains the way it is, so we can freely communicate our individual opinions across our beloved Republic and the entire world.
In my opinion, the article was not an absolute failure.
Granted, despite the orchestrated hit piece within this article, there will be a mulitude of everyday Americans that read this article and they will, once again, as a result of this article, be given an even deeper appreciation of our Republic's principles that are defined in the U.S. Constitution and our Bill of Rights.
They will read it and see straight though the propaganda, the semantics, and the gross defiling of TRUTH pervaded by mainstream media journalists. ;D
Americans, we are waking up to this. O0
Thank goodness! ..:.. ..:..
Keep on keeping on Americans.
We're on a long arduous walk where the path can seem confused.
Your compass is here ---> U.S. Constitution and our Bill of Rights
Focus on the front sight,
Brett
Remember, it's a magazine, not news. It is supposed to be entertaining.. And spooky stories are more entertaining than news.
So they chose the most "Dark Side" shooter they could get their hands on to interview... and still, the best they came up with was to say we're a bunch of white guys? I wouldn't just say this is a "net" positive, I'd say this is almost entirely positive.
Edit: Other than the race comment, the beginning part of the article seemed pretty positive, too. That's the part people are going to read. I think this is a win.
How did everybody not see this coming??? !@#) It's the NYT :wall: It's like expecting The National Review to give a positive piece on Stalin!!
This article has been in the works for over a year, Matt was at the CA Instructors Meeting in Aug last year. I was leary of him, but gave him the benefit of the doubt because Fred and funfaler endorsed him.
I'm a black and white guy for the most part and maybe I'm missing something. I hope I'm missing something, but I just can't see any positive in this article.
Look at it this way, perhaps. If we are not challenging the status quo, then we would have had an absolutely positive coverage. Hard to say if this is good or bad.
It was, of course, a hatchet job on the Appleseed Project.
Pretty amateurish and juvenile hoping around in a disjointed fashion. It apparently took him a year to get enough 'bad' information to pull a story together.
I'm looking forward to answering questions from a NYT reader/believer. I'm sure it will come.
ADD: I guess he managed to miss the The Shelby County Sheriff's Office Training Center shoot hosted by the sheriff's department who got 4 Riflemen and Two becoming IIT's.
http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=9201.msg79580#msg79580
..The last thing I want to hear is The New York Times evaluating The Appleseed Project.. The article was all over the place and reaching and digging for obscurities.. I do not do this for approval or recognition from the debutant's of the upperwest side, the drugged out artists of the lower east side or the filthy inner city streets where the spaced out wander to prey on the weak.. I know this town, I can say what I see and have lived through.. ..The NY Times is a joke, a sophisticated wanna bees rag where they have an answer for everything from behind an armchair.. This is my voice and I stick to it..and if you disagree with me keep it to yourself; Thanks...
..Now as I have said before, I will keep my head down, my sleeves rolled up and continue to move forward in this Appleseed Project, cause I do believe we have something worthy here to share.. May The God, I believe in and The NY Times so easily denounces, Bless us in our forage for the Truth and Liberty, or at least as close as we can get to it on Earth in this physical world..
..What also bothered me were the comments, they try so hard to come across as witty with the hatred for us, as if there is an actual us, like you must fit a certain protocol to join us..
..COME ONE COME ALL, WE ARE ALL DESERVING TO LEARN THE VALUES OF LIBERTY WE ALL OWN, JUST BE CAREFULL NOT TO FALL A SLEEP ON THIS RIDE CALLED LIFE, SOMEONE MIGHT JUST COME ALONG AND TAKE WHAT IS RIGHTFULLY YOURS..
................STRENGTH & HONOR..............JOIN OR DIE......................JOSEY WALES.......................
But Josie, we have you, Kdan and "Cook from Brooklyn" there. I call that a beachhead (and a formidable one at that). I really do think that the videos were pretty good. The story has issues though.
..jmdavis.. We are making a dent in NYC and Long Island, and I will never stop.. My spirits are high and wait till I dress up like Sam Adams and walk down 5th avenue with Applessed brochures, they are gonna love that..
.....General George Patton was a Great American man, what would The NY Times say?.......
Quote from: jmdavis on July 30, 2010, 01:59:38 AM
The story has issues though.
Boy...you think ?
That's like saying the USA has a slight overdraft problem !
ADD: Back to 'real work' - Appleseed prep to do.
How would we be responding right now if the NYTs had sung praises of Appleseed? Would ya'll have believed them? The article would have sounded fake, and their readership wouldn't have believed them then, either. I do think one of the best things about the article was the fact that the accuracy of the history and the markmanship training are not challenged. The article simply states those as what we do. The entire article spent time challenging the mission of Appleseed, not our expertise. I think that's a pretty big +1 for Appleseed right there!
Anyone can choose to like or dislike Appleseed and agree or not agree with how the information was presented, but it remains that what we're doing is getting noticed and that we are recognized as experts in what we do.
And the pictures are great, as is the video. :D
:wb:
Okay I am usually the reserved guy that thinks more than I speak. So, here it goes:
Journalism is supposed to have a subject and be objective. This article had neither with its slant and shifting topic, therefore it has no credibility. All this publication has for strength is an audience. So get mad if you dont like it (which I dont) and put it to good use. Get local and down in the dirt by spreading the truth about Appleseed and it's mission. History will be written with the truth in our actions. Finally, never compromise your morals or beliefs because someone seeks to discredit you or your values.Those belong to you exclusively and they can't change that unless we let them, so carry on and fight the good fight fellow rifleman. See you on the Appleseed circuit with even more passion......
In Liberty,
Koolman68 !@#)
I'm not sure if my comment will get posted on the article, but this is the tact I took:
"Wow! I didn't realize I was a right-wing looney tune, racist, idiotic menace, moron. Last I knew I was a law-abiding, freedom loving, marksmanship enjoying, American-heritage-learning wife who just happens to have recently joined her husband and daughter as an Appleseed instructor. Another daughter and son are soon to follow suit. Our time as a family out on the range sharing history and instructing on the means of sound marksmanship to folks from all walks of life, i.e., doctors to carpenters, service men to young girls, singles to whole families really drives home the reality of how diverse America's citizens are in occupations, race, religion, and ideology. And to experience two long days rubbing shoulders together, getting to know a bit about one another and having a good time while staying on mission: heritage and marksmanship, is something to behold.
May I challenge those who think Project Appleseed is just a lot of men who have too much pent up anger against America's government take a moment to view this video:
http://www.youtube.com...
then go to Project Appleseed's website http://www.appleseedinfo.org/ and find an event nearest you and sign up. See for yourselves who we are and what we're about. Men, bring your whole family; they are more than welcome. Women, there are a number of "Ladies Only" Appleseeds popping up on the events list that might suit you better. Sign up with your daughters and make it a girls weekend out. To all who sign up and attend, see if your experience matches up with what most of those who have commented on this article are characterizing Project Appleseed to be. Come on now. Don't be shy. Who knows, we just might bump into one another out on the range."
Some people look at a glass as half full, and some look at a glass as half empty. The Pessimist see's a half empty glass that someone put out a cigarette in.
Working on the assumption that
"There is no such thing as bad publicity except your own obituary."
Brendan Behan
Appleseed has just received it's best publicity yet. This article will reach over One Million people. The Progressive Liberal crowd, will get confirmation of their beliefs and suspicions. On the other hand, not everyone that reads the New York Times is a Progressive Liberal. There will be many people that will read the article or watch the Slide Show and Video and have something resonate in them and they will want to find out more.
What percent of one million people do we need to attract to meet and to exceed our goals this year?
I agree with everyone's comments, regarding the relative fairness of the Video, Slideshow and article. The only thing that I thought should have been included was link or mention of the website to get more information.
You can probably tell how I look at the glass. In the long run this exposure will bring many more people to the program. Who knows who will be reading this article, Appleseed might be featured on Hannity, Rush or Beck next week. And wouldn't your jaw drop if Ted Nugent walked into your event?
We knew it was coming, what I found great was that my sister in Florida sent me the link, knowing that I am with Appleseed and having heard my explanation. She will be at one someday soon.
First Rebuttal Video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmVvs5LCYPY
Quote from: techres on July 30, 2010, 03:15:56 AM
First Rebuttal Video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmVvs5LCYPY
I like it. Is there anything that can be done to end the audio more gracefully?
And a second:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knGRMwtOwcI
..techres.. way to go, kill'em with kindness..
the video brought a tear to my eye, thanks..............JW.............
First Rebuttal Video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmVvs5LCYPY
Quote from: eaglescouter on July 30, 2010, 03:22:05 AM
Quote from: techres on July 30, 2010, 03:15:56 AM
First Rebuttal Video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmVvs5LCYPY
I like it. Is there anything that can be done to end the audio more gracefully?
Not tonight. I need to be using flash and all I have here is not intended for this purpose. It is a hack and will be made better later. This is a temp fix.
One part of me says a hit piece like this is going to make getting the message out even more of an uphill battle. Getting a non-shooter off the couch is already hard enough without the lure a day at the range would be to a shooting sports enthusiast. Contending with an article that just barely stops short of calling AS a training consultant for militias is not going to make it any easier. We're bailing to save the noble ship of American ideals and the NYT has just called her a garbage scow.
The other part of me says "bring it on!" No one said this was going to be easy, and if the NYT wants to put the name out it's doing half the job for me. Sure, I may have to gift a few entrance fees to get the uninformed on the line, but I have faith that the vast majority of Americans are still capable of having an open mind, and the best way to combat drivel like this article is to show the uninitiated the family and fellowship of a multi-generational bailing team laid out on the line together, let them experience the passion and emotion that our instructors put in to every recounting of the three strikes, and hear of the very personal sacrifices made by the founding generation. We've already seen how successful speaking to a like-minded group about the Appleseed program is - shooters telling shooters has managed to double the size of the program every year since inception. But this article gives us the chance to expand into a group of people whose perceptions of the shooting sports and those who enjoy them are diametrically opposed to ours.
Your word, or my word, or Fred's word won't make a lick of difference to this article's target audience, but show just one avid NYT reader what we're really about, show them that we're not here to teach America how to use the cartridge box for political ends but instead remind America what was given so that we would not need to use it, and then turn 'em loose on their friends. Now that this demographic is familiar with who we are and think they know what we're about, nothing could carry more weight now than one of their own telling of a safe time, with a sound and passionate message of history, and not even one single peep of taking up arms against our present leaders. If you were trying to convince a Ford man to change his brand of choice, would you rather try to sell him a Chevy he knows but thinks he doesn't like or a Dadi he's never heard of and isn't motivated to try? This article has primed the pan for us. The powder is a bit damp, but not so wet it won't ignite with the right spark.
Xeyed makes a good point. It was not good press by any means, but it was press. How many more people know about us now? How many are going to look into this? Free advertising is free advertising; anyone who agrees with what we are about is going to see through the article's propaganda and think 'hey, they think like I do. I should get in touch with them.' Now we'll see how it will reflect in the numbers.
Lol, makes you wonder what the LA times would say, huh ::)
I must admit, I read the comments on the article, and it made my blood boil a little bit. !@#) It was the same with the Post article. But it made me realize: this is the ignorance and the apathy that we are trying to fight. Those that read between the (already) slanted lines came up with their own decisions on who we are and what we're about, and it makes me even sicker to realize that these people vote when they openly believe and create lies! &)
That is why I appleseed. To fight the apathy and the ignorance. John Adams haunts me in that respect. O0
"Posterity! You will never know how much it cost the present Generation to preserve your Freedom! I hope you will make good use of it. If you do not, I shall repent in Heaven, that I ever took half the Pains to preserve it."
-- John Adams
OK, I must say...there was a lovely contrast at the end of my viewing the video. The next "story" that came up was "Shaking it to New Orleans Bounce." One went from people outdoors, sky, green grass...to a dark, smoky, crowded nightclub. (Not that there's anything wrong with that environment, if that's your thing, but it did flip a switch for me through the contrast. It said, "I need to get outdoors into a more healthy environment.") I wonder if that was peculiar to my viewing or if everybody gets hit with "Shaking it to New Orleans Bounce" after "Project Appleseed."
FF
Good grief... it's like watching a slow motion train wreck. What is WITH all these people asking "where were we when Bush was blah, blah, blah"? I gotta wonder - where were THEY? On the TV watching American Idle?
Yes, THANK YOU....they DID post your comment. Whew....talk about tunnel vision....there's a LOT of work to be done to get some of those "posters" off the couch! I thought your video was a great response....
Ben
Quote from: TruTenacity on July 30, 2010, 03:05:16 AM
I'm not sure if my comment will get posted on the article, but this is the tact I took:
"Wow! I didn't realize I was a right-wing looney tune, racist, idiotic menace, moron. Last I knew I was a law-abiding, freedom loving, marksmanship enjoying, American-heritage-learning wife who just happens to have recently joined her husband and daughter as an Appleseed instructor. Another daughter and son are soon to follow suit. Our time as a family out on the range sharing history and instructing on the means of sound marksmanship to folks from all walks of life, i.e., doctors to carpenters, service men to young girls, singles to whole families really drives home the reality of how diverse America's citizens are in occupations, race, religion, and ideology. And to experience two long days rubbing shoulders together, getting to know a bit about one another and having a good time while staying on mission: heritage and marksmanship, is something to behold.
May I challenge those who think Project Appleseed is just a lot of men who have too much pent up anger against America's government take a moment to view this video:
http://www.youtube.com...
then go to Project Appleseed's website http://www.appleseedinfo.org/ and find an event nearest you and sign up. See for yourselves who we are and what we're about. Men, bring your whole family; they are more than welcome. Women, there are a number of "Ladies Only" Appleseeds popping up on the events list that might suit you better. Sign up with your daughters and make it a girls weekend out. To all who sign up and attend, see if your experience matches up with what most of those who have commented on this article are characterizing Project Appleseed to be. Come on now. Don't be shy. Who knows, we just might bump into one another out on the range."
At the bottom of the article I found this:
"Mattathias Schwartz last wrote for the magazine about online trolls."
Quote from: Sprocket on July 30, 2010, 10:36:27 AM
At the bottom of the article I found this:
"Mattathias Schwartz last wrote for the magazine about online trolls."
Yep, I thought that one was funny too.
Mike
To my fellow Appleseeders...all good points.
Time to make lemonade out of lemons.
Let's move on. We have a lot of Appleseeds to plant !
I was there in Winterset, Iowa. I asked the reporters, Mr Orr and Mr. Schwartz, to respect the good, hard working Iowans who were there that day. I was glad to see the great homeschooled family's mother interviewed. I was a bit disappointed that they spent the most time interviewing the most radical participant we had. But overall our story was told fairly well.
Our ITs Mark, Alex and Whisker did not advocate any kind of extremist- hide in the woods with a rifle- attitude. What they did was to passionately tell the story of our country's heritage.
We are construction workers, farmers, doctors, preachers, teachers, family men and women... those with faith in God... those without... We are Americans.
Blessings,
Dave
He described Fred as a "Tall Man" ???
So? Fred is a tall guy.
At least, from the point of view of a guy who's screen name is "Dwarven One", he is!! ;D ;D ;D
Ross
Anyone who can't see through the propoganda wouldn't make it to an Appleseed in any case.
If this attracts one new person then it was worth it.
For some people just being featured in the NYT will lend some credibility to the program.
A net positive in my mind.
OK. Read it a third time.
The first page is OK, so is the second and third. Most people will not read past that. 6-pages is way too long for 90% of the readers to plow through anyway. I was reading a very biased article against Open Carry at Starbucks in the local paper here a few weeks ago. The first 1/2 of the article concentrated on all the people that re opposed to open or concealled carry. The later talked to people who were for it. Both sides of the story were presented, in a very biased way, and the writers know full well that people will not read past thw message they were intending to get across. But at the same time, both stories were given.
I sort of see this article as giving the good stuff first, then the bad stuff.
I say page 3 was OK because the guy from the ADL is back pedaling on what they had published on their website about RWVA and Appleseeds. He only shows how spineless he really is.
And this statement by the author here:
"When American men talk like this, they are usually giving voice to fantasy. Only in fantasy, after all, are governments overthrown by men trained to do nothing more than shoot long-distance targets in a controlled environment. Some of these men seek out unlikely battlefields, where they can be warriors of the future, warriors of the imagination or reluctant warriors in waiting who are passing their time on the Internet. The power of a gun to take a life is not so much a threat as a talisman connecting these fantasies to the real world. ".
Clearly, the message did not ring through to this reporter.
Personally, I would have figured on much worse. All of the bad stuff was about other orgs / people, so for the intelligent people who read well, they will see that were are not them. For the ones who want to see us as bad - they would never attend an event anyway - so noting lost.
There is an upside to this article and as it was inevitable anyway - let's see it as a challenge - a way to improve our strength and character through a little adversity. Let's focus on "lemonade" - how can we spin this to our advantage? How can we use it to advance the only two areas that matter to this program:
A) Getting shooters on the firing line tp learn the heritage
B) Getting staff on the firing line to teach them
It's great when we have a man like Mas Ayoob attend an event and come away with the true nature of the program and delineate same so well, but that's just not the norm from reporters. Reporters like dirt, because editors like dirt, because people like to read about dirt. Get used to it and focus our energies on solutions.
I will wager, and I am not the wagering type, that this article will boost attendance in the long run.
If we rail agin this article - even here on the forum, we are falling into a trap that cannot be escaped. He who protesteth too much will always be seen as guilty. Confidence in our mission and a steely resolve will show the world that our cause is just and our methods unimpeachable.
This is but the first in what will likely be a long line of slanderous attempts to make us out to be something we are not. Adversity breeds character and we have been afforded a great opportunity for some character building - a chance to show what Appleseeders are made of.
Thank you mother - may I have another. ^-^
Quote from: PHenry on July 30, 2010, 01:03:40 PM
Thank you mother - may I have another. ^-^
Absolutely correct! So long as we ride the wave and do not hang ourselves through our responses, we are golden here.
Just hang in there, and know this is the start of something really, really big.
We survuived the Southern "Poverty" Law Center, the ADL and the Washington Post.
Relax all. No bad stuff there.
We will get another 170-180 shooters in each of PA/NY/NJ over then next 4-5 months from it and that will be the total effect so long as folks HERE don't over react.
Pay no attention to the nay sayers, just keep plugging along. Matter of fact if you feel the need to find fault lets check our mirrors and our internal processes before we worry too much about the press. 5 years ago they had half again as much circulation as they do now, wonder why? They have enemies all around them, our only enemy is right here when we self doubt
Well I just got thru reading all 113 comments. It was obvious that alot of the "educated" people out there have a reading comprension problem.
It does look like the NYT knows what buttons to push for their target readership.
Oh well, back to bailing!
The article seems fair considering the source. Recall from Fred's pre-publication post that the writer was recently faced with a series of re-writes driven by the assignment of a new editor to the project. Re-writes directed by NYT editorial staff probably weren't ordered to paint us in a more favorable light.
I like the mention of Guard training, and the mention that "kids and women shoot free."
Although the article took cheap shots, it's still advertising our name and project to quite a large audience. May help us clear some couches...
Quote from: jacques on July 30, 2010, 12:20:54 PM
He described Fred as a "Tall Man" ???
How tall I am all depends on how tall YOU are... ;D
Reminds me of the comment historian and anti-statist author, Thomas Woods ("Meltdown"), said about his books on the NY Times Best Seller list--something to the effect of they're the kind of books the NY Times would rather not acknowledge but being on the list is helpful to sales.
Considering the source, I am grateful they didn't make us look like a bunch of toothless slobbering psycos running through the woods in camo gear shooting everything animate or inanimate.
Nevertheless, it got me thinking about the difference between Appleseed and the fringe militias alluded to in the article. I would sum it up this way, "We don't learn to shoot to overthrow the government, we learn to shoot so we can defend it."
Hector
I added my comments as Appleseed Mom.
Hope I took the proper take on things there. I was trying to be positive.
comments edited due to degrading tone towards northeast liberal media
Quote from: SamD on July 30, 2010, 01:21:02 PM
We survuived the Southern "Poverty" Law Center, the ADL and the Washington Post.
Relax all. No bad stuff there.
We will get another 170-180 shooters in each of PA/NY/NJ over then next 4-5 months from it and that will be the total effect so long as folks HERE don't over react.
Pay no attention to the nay sayers, just keep plugging along. Matter of fact if you feel the need to find fault lets check our mirrors and our internal processes before we worry too much about the press. 5 years ago they had half again as much circulation as they do now, wonder why? They have enemies all around them, our only enemy is right here when we self doubt
Sam,
You are right on about the effect this will have. It is awesome news for us and I do not see any gloom out of this situation. I only see good results coming from it so long as we do not say anything stupid to the press.
Heck, even my wife - whose family reads the NYT like some read scripture - was amazed at the article and saw right through it. I know others will too.
BTW, the way I read it, that is the second time the SPLC crew has called us mainstream. Heck, they were more positive than the NRA who were very hesitant.
In any case, my excitement on this is all positive and not at all negative. This is a big step up for us, and a good teething for our promotions crews to learn from. I know others are really upset at this, and I hope they resist all temptations to cut loose. But, Sam, I am with you - this has me smirking and smiling. It is gonna simply help us reach more people.
All that there is now is to ride the wave, make good use of it and keep anyone from stumbling on all of our behalfs.
Thanks again everyone, and some day Sam - you and I need to find ourselves time around an Appleseed Campfire!
Techres
Somehow, the naysayer commenters after reading 6 pages, neglected Fred's statement that "If we have to fire one shot, we've lost"... To me that is the crux of Appleseed, and the reason I am involved....
Mac
The article is publicity. Publicity will bring people to Appleseeds. It is also likely to bring more publicity, which will bring people to Appleseeds.
This is a great opportunity. Let's set up more shoots for the flood that will be coming!!! :--- :--- :~ :~
22nd most emailed article in the past 24 hrs! ;D
If the goal is to get more people on the firing line so they can hear the truth, then this article should be considered a success. Even with the somewhat right wing extremist spin it puts on appleseed, it has gotten the word out to a huge number of people that might not have heard about the program otherwise. In the end history will show that this article has put more people on the firing lines than it has taken off.
I read the article immediately when it went online, and hesitated, then read it again. It's a plus for us, the slideshow is a plus (even if my truck got in the photo and I didn't!), finally the video was a big plus as well. Whether we like the other opinions that are out there or not, they are there, and we must deal with them. I thought the article covered our side of the story very well. I especially liked how Fred handled the question of screening attendees. It would have been very easy to take the bait and go on the defensive, instead Fred gave them something to think about.
"What if the inmates in the asylum were stabbing each other with knives? Do you give them plastic spoons? Or do you cure the insanity?"
You cure the insanity. That is the forward thinking we talk about in our founding fathers, not being reactionary, not living in the moment.
Let's keep a positive message moving forward from here and not allow ourselves to get caught in the back and forth defensive mode. We got three runners on base and it's up to us who are next at bat to drive one for the fence and bring them home.
Yellowhousejake
As fine and unbiased job done by NYT on project AS ::)
One has to be wondering why a singe issue costs more than a share of stock **)
It was my understanding they were going into chapter 11 . Please someone notify me when the inventory is up for public auction .I would like to buy a table (cheap) to keep outdoors . ;D
JA
Folks, the NYT is a non-entity. The NYT has zero credibility. People who purchase and read that publication are already lost as humans. Gone, dead. Totally indoctrinated "useful idiots".
RWVA and the APPLESEED program will be around decades past the closing of the doors of the NYT. The American MSM is rapidly digging its own grave.
Just keep on doing what we do . . . educate and inform Americans of our heritage. Let the naysayers drink their koolaide. They'll be gone too.
-fb
Well, that's the NY Times being the NY Times.
As for the tone of the article, remember:
"You know you're over the target when you start to get flack"
Stay on target!
Great Article!! I bet it gets us a few more appleseeders!
Seriously, we just got free national advertising. What's better, they took a few cheap shots at us, but none of our crew really gave them anything to hang us by. The NYT just provided us with a straw man and a national stage on which to dismantle him.
What's more, we might be able to parlay this "cheap attack by the liberal media" into getting a media outlet with a more friendly lens to do a counter article.
Can anybody think of media outlets that love fighting back and forth with the NYT? I bet our media staff can find several national platforms that would love to expose the bias in this piece and show the country what we really are, just to spite the NYT.
Of course the NYT did not give us a fair review. It was not in their best interests to tell the truth about us. Their best interests are served by keeping Americans asleep. Their primary advertisers are likely couch and television retailers and I have reason to believe that the time monkey is a major shareholder. So much of the media is devoted to inspiring immobilizing fear and encouraging inaction. We are the natural enemies of fear and inaction. We are the masters of these enemies and they know it.
It is my sincere hope that this article will inspire greater public scrutiny of our program. Since I believe our cause to be just, we will exalt in the attention and use every stone thrown at us to build our speaking platform that much higher.
EVERYTHING IS TO OUR ADVANTAGE
IT NEVER RAIN ON US, IT RAINS FOR US
Sincerely,
TBE
If I had read this article as the average unfamiliar person; assuming I wasn't already ignorantly biased, this would leave me with enough questions to look into it further. If anything; it does prove we exist. ::)
Further more, the comments of those who are do not support us actually serve to support us.
By them comments alone; I would be would not turn away without finding out for myself....
Quote from: Fred on July 30, 2010, 03:07:18 PM
Quote from: jacques on July 30, 2010, 12:20:54 PM
He described Fred as a "Tall Man" ???
How tall I am all depends on how tall YOU are... ;D
When I first met you Fred you were pretty tall, But as we talked and I got to know you, I think we pretty much stand (see) eye to eye. Good job O0 O0 O0
dragonfly @) Keeping the Faith
Anybody see the print article?
There was some truly epic nonsense:
Appleseed blah
blah blah blah
blah attracts
RADICAL
ANGER
and moderates it
smack dab in the middle of one of the pages.
Quote from: crak on August 02, 2010, 06:49:42 AM
Anybody see the print article?
There was some truly epic nonsense:
Appleseed blah
blah blah blah
blah attracts
RADICAL
ANGER
and moderates it
smack dab in the middle of one of the pages.
Huh? I just checked, and didn't find anything like that. Looks like the website was hacked for a bit. BTW, last week I found a bunch of spam (ads for viagra, etc.), within the unread posts menu of THIS forum :o when I opened it. That stuff has not since reappeared, knock on wood.
Glad to see we're all keeping cool heads about this. Once again my faith in our Instructor corps is re-enforced. We are not a bunch of nut jobs. Well, not all of us are. O0
From a news-stand I'll pick up and read the NY times at least once a week. Good way to enjoy a $12 cheese-burger and a glass of wine at a side-walk cafe (in the french style), and the Sunday times book review is a staple in my tiny apartment. Sure beats the other papers around here and it's a good place to get international news. The editorial page usually has something worth reading, and I couldn't care less about the sport scores (even though they're covered too). The Times will put up with both sides up on the economic issues of our time and really does explore many more stories than the tabloids or any television media outlet. You'll see Paul Krugman and George Will in the same issue on the same page, and not only are they not yelling at each other, but they're probably talking about completely different things. First place I ever heard of Ruby Ridge was in the NY Times and they were not "happy" about it. A week after it happened and I hadn't seen it anywhere else.
If one can't handle listening to the other side, then perhaps one should sit down and be quiet themselves. Personally I'd rather listen to NPR than Rush Limbaugh, and I am a committed Rifleman and three year Appleseed Instructor. Anybody wanna debate me on any topic, let's go. Thoughtful discourse is something else we used to have in this country, something we used to respect. Anti-intellectualism is a major selling point of television, newspaper and knee-jerk pundit agit-prop. I'm glad to know that Appleseeders are still thinking people.
Anybody read the article on concealed carry in Harper's? While talking about how much he likes to have a pistol on his hip, he's still able to make fun of himself and others for certain "cowboy" aspects of American masculinity.
If you are absolutely sure of yourself, I can almost guarantee you're over-looking something.
Bottom line, while this article may bring us more shooters, it remains irrelevant. We are not in this to make ourselves famous. The first shooter who tells me he/she came out to AS because of this article gets a free bumper sticker. :)
Staplegund,
It's in the printed magazine on the newsstand. Picture of Fred on one page, that nonsense on the next. "Radical anger" is the biggest thing on the page even though the quote is talking about moderating it.
Amazing they have the nerve to make people take something so out of context while it's right there in the middle of its context!
Quote from: kDan on August 02, 2010, 11:31:08 AM
If one can't handle listening to the other side, then perhaps one should sit down and be quiet themselves. Personally I'd rather listen to NPR than Rush Limbaugh, and I am a committed Rifleman and three year Appleseed Instructor. Anybody wanna debate me on any topic, let's go. Thoughtful discourse is something else we used to have in this country, something we used to respect. Anti-intellectualism is a major selling point of television, newspaper and knee-jerk pundit agit-prop. I'm glad to know that Appleseeders are still thinking people.
I was not going to comment on this issues on the Forum, but KDan's comment was too good to go without a big thumbs up O0. Television, commercial talk radio, and various media have all but destroyed civil and in-depth public discourse. Sometimes NYT is part of the problem, but so is Rush Limbaugh.
I won't be spending $6 (and 56 cents to the King) for the issue. >:D
It has reached many of the internet gun forums and the day is not over. Most liberty loving gun owners see right thru the phony bias of the press.
I sent it to everyone I know (with the rebuttal) even past AS shooters, those which I had e-mails. The ones who have replied so far say it only strengthens their love of liberty and Appleseed.
I was thinking this past weekend, as I stood on the firing line, about the 'middle-aged white men" remark made in the article. I looked down the line at people of different race, creed, color, religion, and sex -all embracing the traditions of the Founders. Then I thought a bit about past events and the sheer volume of pictures I have on file.
I can likely produce a picture of near every type of person imaginable (with a little digging - lots of pics). The lust for Liberty knows no color - no specific creed - it is universal among mammals and is surely embedded in our very DNA.
I have no darkness in my heart for the author or the publisher - I know well what we are about.
I first saw mention of the article over on the firingline forum this morning and so linked to it and read the thing...
I found it a pretty fair accounting and not what I expected at all. Yes, the writer did branch off into some folks who are on the 'dark side' but if you stay focused while reading it... you or at least I did not get a negative feel for Appleseed from what was written.
but then I'm one of those few wild eyed liberals who firmly believes in the RTKABA... as well as understanding where we came from and enjoying honing my rifleman skills.
Liberty Minded E-mailed me this rebuttal article here
http://bigjournalism.com/wthuston/2010/08/02/fears-worries-yada-yada-yada-the-new-york-times-is-afraid-of-gun-crazed-motley-carnivals-of-the-tea-party-movement/#idc-cover
Quote from: Fred on July 30, 2010, 03:07:18 PM
Quote from: jacques on July 30, 2010, 12:20:54 PM
He described Fred as a "Tall Man" ???
How tall I am all depends on how tall YOU are... ;D
Compared to Jacques then, not tall ++) ;D
Fred, I was at the Ramseur shoot this past weekend, and it was a pleasure to meet you and get to know more about the Appleseed program and how it operates. As a first time Appleseeder, I would like to state that I was impressed by how you, and all of the instructors presented themselves. Also, I had no difficulty whatsoever deriving the intended mission of the RWVA. Politically, I am a registered independent because I would like to think that I can make up my own mind on how I feel on certain issues, and I believe that the message at the Appleseed shoot was just that.
Additionally, for those who were not in Ramseur this past weekend, we had a Boy Scout troop of 12-14 boys as well as a mix of men/women of all ages (and not everybody was white!).
Down-Range TV's Michael Bane had some good comments on the article in their weekly video podcast. O0
http://www.downrange.tv/blog/drtv%E2%80%99s-weekly-video-podcast-32/5265/
Yeah, DownRange Radio's feature really impressed me.
I was very interested in how he relied on his background in investigative journalism to look at why the NYT and other mainstream media outlets create articles like they do.
This should be required listening for every journalist and journalism major.
It looks like a lot of people took the time to comment about the N.Y. Times article.
That's a good thing, but I noticed one very important instance in the slides portion of the piece.
Did any one see Slide #12,the same one as on the front page? It shows the Flag of the United States of America Lying on the GROUND. That is a horrible way to display "OLD GLORY".
This behavior shows gross disrespect for the Flag and the U.S.A.
The correct way to display and handle "OLD GLORY" can be found at
http://www.usflag.org/uscode36.html#176
Scroll to #176 Respect for the Flag Sec.b
I think it is great that we teach about The Founders and our Heritage, but maybe we should start teaching about respect for the Flag and our Country in the present also.
I find it very disturbing that not too many folks know about U.S. Flag etiquette.
Thanks, Richie Taylor
IIT Virginia
Just FYI, I remember the Shoot Boss for this event saying that is a beach towel with an American Flag design on it.
Still disrespectful in my book, but it is not as bad as that picture looks (and every NYT reader probably thinks).
Let's see - NYT readers are highly conscious of and very sensitive as to how the American flag should be treated?
Hmmm, maybe...
NYT readers are highly concerned about how WE would treat the flag. I have some experience here, upon which I will not expound. !@#)
I believe that the NYT would happily promote an "Old Glory" brand of toilet paper, right next to the "Constitution" brand, and the special double-ply, extra soft version with a picture of a Founding Father on every sheet. Unhappily, it would probably sell quite well to a certain percentage of their readership. >:(
My mother would read NYT Mag. She would also be horribly offended by such a product. Always remember that most of the people we would call "liberals" are good and decent people who are simply misguided or emotionally-based people who tend to be easily led. There are many potential Appleseeders in this demographic - know this and keep it in mind when thinking of this group.
I have seen many a rifle-hating liberal mended by the power of Liberty. I have effected this change, or caused it to happen myself and know this to be true. As Appleseeders we must reach out to all comers. The traditions of the Founders appeal to a wide range of people - they simply need to be exposed to them.
That is the magic of Appleseeds. May it draw them all to our worthy cause, that they might be enlightened by the words of a group of New England shopkeepers and gentleman farmers who held Liberty in such esteem as to think it more valuable than life itself.
Liberty knows no politics.
I'm sorry Fred, I'm confused with your reply to the respect for the American Flag. How do you know that this individual is a NYT reader. Yes, there may be sensitivity behind the message but for a just reason. It does not have anything to with political beliefs.
I know this n2oguy, and he does not read the NYT. The first time was when you posted the article. So, I guess you could say "NYT readers are highly conscious of and very sensitive as to how the American flag should be treated". If you want to look at it this way.
Isn't that what Appleseed about? Education and awareness. This individual is doing what you did with Appleseed; educate and be aware. I think both of you are doing the right.
Click on that link which was included with the message. It is a shame that so many do not know how to handle the flag. He feels the same as you about how this country has gone off course. I'm just glad that I meet this n20guy. And I'm glad to have had the experience attending a few Appleseed events.
For those who are unaware, that is not a flag in the picture. It is a towel. The shooter was asked to take the towel and put it up as it could be misunderstood. At some point, however, the photographer got that towel under the rifle and got a picture of it.
So, to be clear, two items:
1. It is a towel, not a flag. If it were a flag, the SB (an ex-DI IIRC) would have taken the shooter behind the woodshed.
2. The shooter was asked to remove it, to put it away and eventually did so. However the picture happened at some point and the resulting image has created the exact anger that the NYT had hoped to create.
No flag was desecrated or disrespected at any time, ever.
Just so that you know,
Techres
This email is for techres. I ask for you to look on the link n2oguy included. Here's a portion:
(i) The flag should never be used for advertising purposes in any manner whatsoever. It should not be embroidered on such articles as cushions or handkerchiefs and the like, printed or otherwise impressed on paper napkins or boxes or anything that is designed for temporary use and discard. Advertising signs should not be fastened to a staff or halyard from which the flag is flown.
and there's more...please look at it. Yes, I know....the majority of us do not know this. It's a shame manufactures are allowed to do this. No one is pointing fingers or saying you or anyone at this event did anything wrong. It's just a matter of educating. Believe me it happened to me. And I was upset and did not believe this until I did my homework. Maybe in the future you may look at the exhibit of the flag differently.
I must be missing something here, but my interpretation was that the NYT was using the picture as a visual illustration of the (in their opinion) undesirable or even unsavory connection which Appleseed allegedly encourages between firearms and patriotism. I think it's as simple as that. They didn't mean to make anyone angry about treatment of the flag one way or the other.
I also hate to throw another wrench in the works, but I think we would be well served to stick to the real issues of the heritage Appleseed explicitly considers part of its mission and which predate questions of nationalism, flags, and even the constitution. April 19, 1775 and the revolution that *came before it* had to do with independence among the people (which could exist precisely because they did not need the nationalism of the British government or any of the services it offered) and self-government.
Independence, liberty, and self-government. I shudder at the revelation which will come to our "corps" if we realize the magnitude of the task set before us, but I think it's unavoidable. Getting people to follow some rules about how to treat a piece of colored cloth would be a lot easier.
It looks like I started some controversy with my post, that's good. I joined the Appleseed Project because I think it is a good way to get the people and "wake the country up". I became an instructor for that same reason. Now let's get all that junk out of the way about who I am, and what I read. First, I don't read the NYT. I read the article online because Fred sent me an e-mail about it.
Second, I am a 72 year old male living in Va. I believe in the Constitution and feel humbled when I think about what the Founders had to give up just so we can bicker on this forum.
That being said let's start by all of us taking our heads out of our butts and start anew. I admit when I saw the pic.my temples started to pound and I was pissed. If it looked like I was trying to single someone out that is not the case.I was trying to do what Appleseed does-educate.
I once saw something about bringing a teachable attitude and leaving ego at home. That sounds like a good rule for these forums. All I'm asking you folks is go on the links below and see if there is anything you could learn from them.
http://www.ushistory.org/betsy/flagetiq.html
http://www.usflag.org/uscode36.html#USFC
Thanks, n2oguy
Quote from: Follow Thru on August 12, 2010, 12:35:57 PM
I'm sorry Fred, I'm confused with your reply to the respect for the American Flag. How do you know that this individual is a NYT reader. Yes, there may be sensitivity behind the message but for a just reason. It does not have anything to with political beliefs.
Maybe I'm wrong but I interpreted Fred's post as a sarcastic way to say that the demographic that reads the NYT regularly and identifies closely with the opinions of its reporters and editorial staff wouldn't know the flag code from a frankfurter. Even before Techres gave some back story, I was convinced that the picture was staged and that the photographer was insinuating that Appleseed was attempting to link violence to patriotism/nationalism in a time when east and west coast pop culture seems to be pushing for global homogenization. I would feel safe gambling that the person staging the shot was unaware of the portion of the code that you cited above, especially given how often it's violated on a daily basis. I'm glad to learn that the shooter with this particular piece of gear was educated and thanks to n2oguy for posting the links. Lord knows I could use a refresher.