Project Appleseed

Hi all;

If someone could only afford to purchase a LTR or a rack-grade M1;( w/o having the option of hand-picking; never mind possible replacement parts/ammo) which would be the wiser investment?

Any alternative advice/suggestions for us "po" folk?  :-\

T.I.A  ;)

EJ

I would say the M1, but only because they're currently available from CMP for about half (or less) what they go for at gun shows.

My full suggestion is this:

1. M1

2. Then an LTR, building it as you go.

3. Then maybe add an SKS or AR.

4. Start buying cheaper bolt action surplus rifles from there (back-up/give out guns).

When you are money limited, things get put in different perspectives.

Let's say you have only a couple hundred dollars to work with, and not much on an ongoing basis. Buy an SKS, tart it up a little (sights), and learn to shoot it.

Got a little more to work with up front? Buy a CMP M1.

Got a small amount now, but can add to it over time (say about $100 to $150 a month)? Buy an AR lower receiver and do a build. Sure, it'll take you a few months to get it done, but what other choices do you really have?

Flat out dirt poor ($100, and little prospect to add to that)? Get a Mosin Nagant (a Finn or a 91/30, NOT an M44), and learn to use it. They work. I've got a lot of rifles, and I own 3 Mosins.

As to whether to buy an LTR or not, it depends on what you can afford. You can build similar rifles on other platforms, though none will be as easy or effective as the 10/22. A Winchester 190 could be made very usable with a little effort (sling and Wiiliams sights). Downsides to it? Tube mag and more work.

Remember that it's the Rifleman that makes the rifle, not the other way too.

Just saw that you're in NH, EJ. Wait on the LTR for now. You can borrow one if you need to for an Appleseed. I have 6 loaners that are available for those that need to use them, and I'm at most (if not all) Appleseeds in the Northeast.

Remember you'll have to buy ammo for those rifles.

I think the perfect learning rifle is the LTR.

Find a used or WalMart 10/22. Add Tech sights, swivels, extended mag release, and an auto bolt release.

You've got a great 22 rifle that will last for years, if not for your life.

CCI mini mag ammo from MidwayUSA, $25 for 500.

You've a great rifle that shoots inexpensive ammo. You can afford to shoot 10,000 rounds ~ $500.

In addition, there's little to no recoil so you're less likely to develop a flinch   ;) that you'll have to loose to become a rifleman.

I'm glad I started with a LTR rather than an M1 or an M1A. I'm still working with the LTR. I now have an AR-15 and ordered a M1A. I'm sure what I learn on the LTR will transfer directly to the other rifles.

LTR's for the poor folk NOT. LTR's for everyone!  ;D

Thanks guys.

Well, obviously if I could afford both, I would have both.( or more...  ;D ) Present personal circumstances dictate otherwise unfortunately.

My thought was to find a single platform that would allow me to start training asap. w/o needing to spend a small fortune on ammo and upgrading/replacing parts.

I would also rather not be stuck with just a .22 should a serious situation develop.

Choices, choices, choices.... Theres always some trade-off.


:edit: Excuse me if this was the wrong forum to post in; mod's feel free to move.  ;)

The last 30-06 I bought this spring was $70 for 200 rounds.

I think you could get a Ruger 10/22 for about $170 at Walmart. I bought a stainless 10/22 there for $229 this spring.

Add a set of tech sights and you're at about $230. Forget the other goodies for now.

1000 rounds of CCI 22 lr would be about $50.

For $280 you'll have a rifle, ammo, and 1000 rounds of practice.

That same $280 would buy you only 800 rounds of 30-06 practice and you'll still have to buy the M1!

And you'll have a 10/22 left to keep or sell to another beginner.

My decision was to gain experience on the 10/22 and transfer it to the Ar-15 and M1A.

When I decided to learn to ride a motorcycle I didn't buy a Suzuki Hayabusa or a Honda Goldwing. I learned on a 250cc Honda Rebel. Then moved to a 650cc. I've ridden the Goldwing, but it's too much for me. As for the Hayabusa, I'm still too young to die.

If you really think the UN is coming for you tomorrow, then why settle for the M1, why not buy the M1A now? Heck you really should have the 50 BMG. Otherwise learn the basics on a LTR and move on to the M! or M1A.

This is just my opinion. Opinions are like rear ends, everybody has one and most of us would be better off not showing them in public.

Quote from: Simballo on December 28, 2007, 03:54:22 PM

I think you could get a Ruger 10/22 for about $170 at Walmart. I bought a stainless 10/22 there for $229 this spring.

$182 and change this fall. 22" barrel version was $232 (I bought one). The store was Bennington, VT, and that isn't all that far from you, EJ. (Just in case there isn't one that sells rifles near you, which I hear there isn't.)

Jerk's Sporting Goods had one on sale yesterday for $168.

Edit: :o The website has changed the familar nickname for Richard (kcid if you spell it backwards) to Jerk

Look around to see what you can find. I prefer new guns because I know what they've been through, but you may find some bargins in the used arena.

You might even post a Wanted ad in the Deals and Steals section of this forum, if this is permitted.

Quote from: Simballo on December 28, 2007, 03:54:22 PM
If you really think the UN is coming for you tomorrow, then why settle for the M1, why not buy the M1A now? Heck you really should have the 50 BMG. Otherwise learn the basics on a LTR and move on to the M! or M1A.

LOL!

No, I don't think, ( and I pray it doesn't) a SHTF situation, happening anytime soon, is probable; but anything is possible.

I would much rather have as much info. & opinions before I make a purchase, rather than after; and in most aspects of life I prefer preventative measures over reactionary.

I do tend to be overly analytical at times too.  :D

Buy what you can afford to feed.  In this case its a LTR.  I rather have an LTR I can shoot a couple times a month than an M1 I can shoot a couple times a year.  

In the 'free advise is worth what you pay for it" department.

I would much rather have an LTR, with lots of shooting experience and quality skills than a larger cal rifle that I can not shoot as much.  The M1 will put you out of the LTR business, however an LTR will get you into the shooting business sooner and better, and still leave some funds available for a center fire rifle, albeit lesser than an M1.

If you really "need" a serious rifle, and you have the skills of a rifleman, those who have extras will get one in your hands, I know I would (as a matter of fact, how far are you from Louisville, KY? 

My 2c...LTR and shooting a bunch now.....save a few months more for a center fire rifle.  Or sell a kidney and get both ;)

Quote from: funfaler on December 28, 2007, 06:38:24 PM
Or sell a kidney and get both ;)

That isn't a viable option is it?  ;D Currently in southern N.H. btw



Thank you gentlemen. LTR it is.

Be sure to contact Nickle before you purchase, he is your Regional LTR expert and will lead you down the better path for getting it set up.

Good luck and no one said it had to be your kidney :o

I just gotta ask. What is an LTR?

Quote from: funfaler on December 28, 2007, 07:11:57 PM


Good luck and no one said it had to be your kidney :o

Thanks. Yeah, someone else's would be a better choice; unfortunately not many are willing to oblige such a request.  ;D

Quote from: wildman on December 28, 2007, 08:32:52 PM
I just gotta ask. What is an LTR?

Is that a mess-with-the-noob question?  ;D

Liberty Training Rifle if not.  ;)

Quote from: EJ on December 28, 2007, 08:40:10 PM

Quote from: wildman on December 28, 2007, 08:32:52 PM
I just gotta ask. What is an LTR?

Is that a mess-with-the-noob question?  ;D

Liberty Training Rifle if not.  ;)

Nah, wildman is an old rifle shooter for the most part. He likes his Springfields, and I don't mean M1A's. I swear he'd call an M1 a "new fangled contraption".

EJ, the ones I built are pretty well discussed in the LTR thread already. I did the hammers and bolt release modifications myself, but I would suggest getting the Volquartsen hammer/bolt release set and install it yourself. Dwarven1 is near you, and he's done some of the mods already (I did the trigger/bolt release, he did the rest) on his 10/22's. I'd wager he would be glad to help you.

Some thoughts to add:

Depending on the deal you get on a base .22 rifle, and whether you're willing to consider a used gun, and how many of the add-ons you feel are truly necessary, you'll probably spend somewhere between $200 and $400 for an LTR.  Ammo will run $14 to $30 per 500, so lots of practice shouldn't be prohibitively expensive.

If the manure happens to collide with the ventilating equipment during that interim time when you have an LTR and have developed some skill, but haven't yet saved up enough for a "real" battle rifle, remember the history of the "Liberator" pistol.  That was a REALLY CHEAP (Uncle Sugar paid less than $2 per copy) stamped sheet metal .45acp single shot pistol, that used a pencil or stick for an extractor.  The idea was to drop them to French resistance fighters, I don't know whether that really happened on any scale or not, so they could use them against solo or otherwise-distracted Nazi occupation troops, and thereby equip themselves with battle rifles. 

Well, in such an unhappy circumstance, I'd expect you could use a .22 rifle at least as well in that role, if no accommodating and better-equipped friend or neighbor came through for you.

And if that doesn't happen, then you've got a really superior initial training rifle at a fairly affordable cost.  Garands or even SKS's aren't likely to get any cheaper, but there are so many around that they will continue to be available at SOME price.

Quote from: Nickle on December 28, 2007, 09:11:03 PM

Quote from: EJ on December 28, 2007, 08:40:10 PM

Quote from: wildman on December 28, 2007, 08:32:52 PM
I just gotta ask. What is an LTR?

Is that a mess-with-the-noob question?  ;D

Liberty Training Rifle if not.  ;)

Nah, wildman is an old rifle shooter for the most part. He likes his Springfields, and I don't mean M1A's. I swear he'd call an M1 a "new fangled contraption".

EJ, the ones I built are pretty well discussed in the LTR thread already. I did the hammers and bolt release modifications myself, but I would suggest getting the Volquartsen hammer/bolt release set and install it yourself. Dwarven1 is near you, and he's done some of the mods already (I did the trigger/bolt release, he did the rest) on his 10/22's. I'd wager he would be glad to help you.

IC, thanks; that explains that.  ;D

I've read some of the LTR thread and am sure I could do most of the mods myself. You can be sure I'll post if I run into any difficulties.  :D

I'm planning on watching the local used market; we have a few shops up here.  ;)

I currently have a SIG P245 so I do have some means of self-protection; and from what I've read so far, with proper shot placement, even a .22 can be a very effective tool. :o

Your right.  Never underestimate what a skilled man a 22 can do.

I love the LTR concept. But, I would feel naked with out an MBR.
Dry fire practice is FREE. Use it!
Also, the price of a CMP Garand will never be cheaper, this rifle is easly worth twice the price and I think will be soon. A Garand runs as is, no modifications needed. The price of ammo? Yeah, dude, total bummer.
If you don't live in an area prone to riot unrest an LTR is nice as your only rifle.
Don't mind me -I need to move to Wyoming.

Serf

Quote from: EJ on December 28, 2007, 10:34:45 PM

I'm planning on watching the local used market; we have a few shops up here.  ;)

I forgot to mention that John's VT Gun Shop (Morrisville, VT) is a supporter of the program, and should be able to get a Ruger for you. His prices are reasonable, he does gun shows, and he should be at the White River Junction show in February (same dates as Diprete's West Lebanon show). John's knows EXACTLY what an LTR is, they have one hanging on the wall in the shop (I built it for them, part of the deal when they donated 3 10/22's to the program).

 At the risk of muddying the waters a bit more, you should consider the ubiquitous No.4Mk1 Enfield. Currently available for about $130 (not including transfer/ICS/shipping) from J&G sales, Century Arms and others. Ammo is currently available for 15-22 cents/rd.
10 rds on board, fast to reload with strippers, already has aperature sights (you may need to spend an extra $25 for an adjustable rear [ preferably milled] rear sight), has swivels and can easily use a Ching or CW sling. The last one I bought, I paid $75 dollars for, a pristine Longbranch. My son paid $125 for a gorgeous Savage.
  All of that's to say that for under $300 you can have a serious MBR AND 1000 rds or so of ball ammo. ANY 22 can be pressed into service as a trainer, the requirements for an MBR are a bit more demanding....

Quote from: socalserf on December 28, 2007, 11:45:47 PM
If you don't live in an area prone to riot unrest an LTR is nice as your only rifle.
Don't mind me -I need to move to Wyoming.

I live in NH; it seems BG's don't care to commit as many crimes when there is just as good a chance that their intended victim may be better armed than they are.  ;D 

I don't think our population is large enough to present a dangerous civil unrest situation; ( The MA******s on the other hand....  :D ) but I recently joined the New Hampshire State Guard Study Group, and we are exploring the viability of forming an all volunteer group to help address such situations.

Any citizens of NH, or supporters in general, feel free to PM me for more info. ;)

Quote from: Nickle on December 29, 2007, 10:19:14 AM

Quote from: EJ on December 28, 2007, 10:34:45 PM

I'm planning on watching the local used market; we have a few shops up here.  ;)

I forgot to mention that John's VT Gun Shop (Morrisville, VT) is a supporter of the program, and should be able to get a Ruger for you.

Thank you sir. 

If I need to, I can purchase a new Ruger from a local dealer; ( as a bonus we have no sales tax.  ;D )

Quote from: Spatulaman on December 29, 2007, 10:37:17 AM
At the risk of muddying the waters a bit more, you should consider the ubiquitous No.4Mk1 Enfield. Currently available for about $130 (not including transfer/ICS/shipping) from J&G sales, Century Arms and others. Ammo is currently available for 15-22 cents/rd.
10 rds on board, fast to reload with strippers, already has aperature sights (you may need to spend an extra $25 for an adjustable rear [ preferably milled] rear sight), has swivels and can easily use a Ching or CW sling. The last one I bought, I paid $75 dollars for, a pristine Longbranch. My son paid $125 for a gorgeous Savage.
  All of that's to say that for under $300 you can have a serious MBR AND 1000 rds or so of ball ammo. ANY 22 can be pressed into service as a trainer, the requirements for an MBR are a bit more demanding....

Sounds interesting...

Anyone care to chime in on this suggestion?




BTW, I should  prolly mention I havn't fired a rifle since I was 14. ( and I'm 37 now. )  :-\

EJ:

I've not owned an Enfield, but I have shot a couple of 'em.  The stock is a two-piece job kinda like a Winchester 94.  They aren't as stable unless you get a PRISTINE rifle that has not seen any action.

You aren't getting an Enfield in pristine condition for $130.  Ain't gonna happen.  Most of the ones I've seen on the surplus circuit have very wobbly stocks.

Mausers and Mosins, on the other hand, have much nicer stocks from a stability and consistency perspective.  Mausers are getting scarce though and run around $250 on up nowadays.  Mosins are still dirt cheap though.

The Mosin's 7.62x54R cartridge has a similar flight plan to the 8mm, .308, .30-06 and .223 cartridge.  Very similar drop compensation at 200-500 yards.

The .303 from the Enfield, on the other hand, flies a bit more like the 7.62x39 and the .30-30.  Drops more rapidly than the above mentioned cartridges.  Doesn't mean you can't shoot it long range; just means that it's a bit harder.

Do you want to end up with an M1A or a Garand?  Then get a cartridge that flies similar.  At least that's my opinion.  An LTR to learn the basics, then a Mosin to use if you really need it; that will get you farther as a newbie than a Garand right off the bat.  Get the Garand in six months.

Looking in gun safe  03a3 ,Krag, cetme, enfield .303 M-1 garand ,savage fp 10,, lever action .22 ,shotgun ,sks's, pistols etc etc ,,,,

#^$$%%$  No RUGER 10/22 LTR     

point is it is the very next rifle on my list of guns to buy probably before  I even buy more ammo.

imho every one needs an LTR !
advise free desposable  get an LTR  go to an appleseed  look at other rifles try other rifles .

Wade

I recommend the #4 Mk1 Enfield highly.  The price of ammo is still good-old-days cheap, half to a third the price of M80 ball.  Roger the merit of the rotating click-adjustable aperture sight, as opposed to the sprung pawl-adjustable sight.  The rotating click type gives you more ability to precisely dial in elevation, whereas the sprung pawl has far more coarse adjustment.  The rotating clicker type is milled, the pawl type is stamped sheetmetal. 
All cheap .303 surplus is surely corrosive, but Enfields are very easy to clean. 
Shop around until you find a rifle that has five-groove rifling, not two-groove.  Select for barrel condition; what you're looking for is a rifle that was re-barrelled and then stored.  If of UK origin, look for the stamped letters "FTR" on the receiver, which means "Factory Thorough Repair".  This means they took an old warhorse and likely replaced the barrel and then stored the weapon.  I found a beautiful walnut-stocked FTR for $99 years ago; barrel full of cosmoline and in perfect condition.  If the barrel's not pristine, keep shopping till you find one.  Don't worry about headspace, that's easily adjustable, if needed at all, with a $15 bolt head. 
Years ago as kids, sitting on a desert ridge top with various rifles over the years, we used to shoot at a particular hillside far away whose range, we experimentally determined with military rifles, was 1000 meters.  We selected a target on that distant ridge and fired on it with various arms from K98s to Enfields, SKS etc.  Well, the #4 Enfield had no trouble at all lobbing rounds into a fairly tidy inpact area; the target was a lone creosote bush, and it wasn't difficult to worry that bush with the #4. 
I'd place the .303 nearer to the 30-06 than to the 7.62x39, it's still a hard-hitting rifle round.
You're getting ten different suggestions here, but I want to commend you for your resolution to obtain a rifle and learn how to properly shoot it, whatever you settle on.   

My backup MBR is an #4MK2 with a Parker-Hale recevier sight. The gun is almost as old as I am. And I'll put it up against most any other rifle. The only draw back of an enfield is that it likes to stretch cases. Got to watch that if you're reloading.
My LTR is an Chinese 22 bolt action with a five round mags. Shoot what you've got.
smle

Quote from: AZRedhawk44 on December 29, 2007, 11:26:09 AM
EJ:

I've not owned an Enfield, but I have shot a couple of 'em.  The stock is a two-piece job kinda like a Winchester 94.  They aren't as stable unless you get a PRISTINE rifle that has not seen any action.

You aren't getting an Enfield in pristine condition for $130.  Ain't gonna happen.  Most of the ones I've seen on the surplus circuit have very wobbly stocks.

Mausers and Mosins, on the other hand, have much nicer stocks from a stability and consistency perspective.  Mausers are getting scarce though and run around $250 on up nowadays.  Mosins are still dirt cheap though.

The Mosin's 7.62x54R cartridge has a similar flight plan to the 8mm, .308, .30-06 and .223 cartridge.  Very similar drop compensation at 200-500 yards.

The .303 from the Enfield, on the other hand, flies a bit more like the 7.62x39 and the .30-30.  Drops more rapidly than the above mentioned cartridges.  Doesn't mean you can't shoot it long range; just means that it's a bit harder.

Do you want to end up with an M1A or a Garand?  Then get a cartridge that flies similar.  At least that's my opinion.  An LTR to learn the basics, then a Mosin to use if you really need it; that will get you farther as a newbie than a Garand right off the bat.  Get the Garand in six months.

  Ummm, No. The Enfield 2-piece stock uses a through-bolt which can be tightened through the buttplate trap. If necessary, extra washers can be installed to take up any slack. In addition, the No 4's were available with 3 different length buttstocks to fit different sized Tommies (and people think the AR is the 1st "modular" rifle...) The Win. 94 uses upper and lower tangsand is a much weaker system, as well as being more difficult to bed correctly.
  The .303 is the ballistic brother to the .30 US (.30/40 Krag round) and much more effective at range than either of the 2 calibers you mentioned. 174 grs. at 2500 is rifle territory, not carbine. Most domestic commercial ammo is loaded light, but the same is true of 8x57, 7x57, 6.5x55, etc. etc. The .303 was THE cartridge for long range target work- and by long range I'm talking about Wimbledon 1000, 1100 and 1200 yards. In addition, in the Mk 7 loading, the bullet is nose-light, making it unstable on impact and thus initiating a much faster yaw cycle.
  Finally, even though the Mosin is inexpensive, it has some features which make it less than a 1st pick battle rifle. First and foremost, it is awkward to manipulate. The straight bolt handle is difficult to operate rapidly. The bolt reach is not conducive to maintaining NPOA or operating speed. For all intents and purposes, it has no safety. It carries open sights, with no inexpensive way to mount a receiver sight. If one elects to mount a telescope, any resemblance to a cheek weld is lost in getting behind the light pencil. All of these deficiencies can be overcome with determination and hard work, but why set yourself an extra pack of problems?
  BUT, having said all of that, remember what they say..."What's the first rule in a gunfight?"
"Have a gun." The Mosin meets that criteria, I just think that there are much better choices available for not much more money. Heck, SARCO sells M48/M48A Mausers for right at $100. Lots of choices available to you, but if I were on a really tight budget, I'd be prowling the gunshows and the internet for a decent No 4 Mk 1. In my not-so-humble opinion, it is the best of the volksgewehrs....

I have to inject a question or two and a few comments here.

LTR= liberty TRAINING rifle
is there a LR?  if so why would one possibly get the trainer before they had the real thing and was competent with that?  The way It's been explained to me is that the LTR is for weekend training session at home.  I have never ever seen anyone show up to any of the tactical rifle, sniper, pistol, etc. classes I've been to with a 22 training rifle.  Why in heavens name would you PAY for a class to learn how to use a rifle and show up with a 22?  You are there to learn how to operate a real rifle not a smallbore target gun.    No matter how hard you try, you cannot learn the manual of operation for an M1 Garand by shooting a 10/22.  Save the training rifle for home practice

If you have to choose between a rifle that can kill a man at 500 yards or a target rifle that cant do it at 100 yards then by all means, get the mans rifle.  Fred has been beating this into our heads for at least a decade.  He prefers the M14, but the garand is an excellent choice even today.

If ammo prices are such a great hurdle for you that you cant afford to buy 400 rounds for an appleseed and 40 rounds twice a month, then you should re-evaluate why you want a rifle in the first place.  maybe a gun isnt the right toy for you.  Perhaps try darts, I hear they can be re-used for quite sometime and sting like the Jerkens when they hit you.

No matter what anyone here tells you a 22 is not a substitute for a M1 garand.  It cannot even in the hands of an expert kill anything at 500 yards or even 400 yards.  If all you have WTSHTF is a LTR, then please, stay home on your couch and eat more bonbons.  I would rather have a man with a garand, appleseed qualified and 100 rounds than an expert sniper with an LTR and 5000 rounds.

Now please correct me If i'm wrong on any of the following points-

A rifleman can hit (and presumably kill) men consistently at out to 500 yards
the reason for hitting men at 500 yards is to defend the country and our freedoms
every rifleman should be able to do that when called upon with a rifle and ammo provided by him
applesed program is to train RIFLEMEN (and not smallbore champions)
the LTR is a good refresher tool to maintain the abilities of a rifleman
the LTR cannot perform the tasks required of it by a rifleman and therefore is not a rifle
a Rifleman without a rifle is a cook
therefore... LTR=SPATULA


Listen to Fred and listen to Nickle, GET A RIFLE not a trainer.

 Careful there, Paul, you're about to step into the hole I discovered with my very first posting. Look in the AARs for the Puryear TN thread to see my comments re. .22LRs.

As a tangential issue to the whole CF/RF debate, and the question of how much ammo to have on hand, one of my questions has been, "How much can you carry?" 10,000 rds of 7.62 would be really nice- unless you've got to pick it up in your two hands and run with it.

  And I must take umbrage with the cavalier way in which you've appropriated my moniker to make your point! (An avatar I chose, BTW, after shooting a 208 at the afore-mentioned AS. Fred never did tell me how he liked his eggs....)

The purpose of the LTR is to teach you to shoot, not replace, a LR.  Buying an LTR first simply means that the shooter can expend little money and obtain tens of thousands of rounds of practice.  Practicing sight alignment, breathing, trigger pull, positions.   The discipline of shooting can be learned with either rifle, and they are parallel paths toward the same objective of riflery.  I'm less interested in which rifle is finally selected as I am delighted that a fellow wants to learn how to shoot who formerly did not.  For the purpose of learning to shoot, both rifles work.  They're different tools with different physical and economic implications. 
The M1 Garand is a super deal today, from the CMP, as is its ammo.  Pick up the Garand, you can always dry fire plenty, as everybody should regardless of how much ammo they can afford.  The military spends days dry firing before anybody head to the range to shoot live ammo.
Get an LTR, and you'll be able to shoot thousands of rounds at little cost.
You're not going to lose with either rifle.
 
   

Look at it this way.

Eventually you will have both.

You can get the LTR first and shoot it cheaply while saving for another rifle.  All the while honing your skills as a riflemen and having a good time in the process.

or..

But the LR now and let it spend considerably more time collecting dust while you save for a LTR which is going to be a longer journey because everytime you hit the range your out $40.00 for ammo.  :-\

I say stick with the LTR.

Guys,

For what its worth, I think the disagreement is sort of silly. The point of all this is to get everyone up to rifleman speed.

To do this buy, if you dont already have a rifle, the rifle you want. Commit to firing whatever you buy, using the techniques taught here, a min of 40rds once or twice a month to become proficient.

Then, eval what you have and what you want to be able to do. The story is different for evryone!

None of us should make judgements on a mans choice of equipment unless it seriously impedes his journey to rifleman status. Just by trying the man is "waking up" and becomes an ally to be counted on.

Sow the seeds. Different rifles will pop up, but just like there are lots of phylum of apples, (Red, yellow, green, gold) there will be lots of different rifles. And, they are all good. To each his own and learn.

CM61

 To have only one rifle and for it to serve for almost anything needed, buy an AR,Mini 14 or any other rifle that you can get a .22 LR conversion kit for.
Learn with the .22,shoot cheap and shoot a lot.
Still have the .223/5.56 for backup in case of need.
The 5.56 may not be a MBR but it has served for many years all over the world and is going strong.

Quote from: Paul Shanks on December 30, 2007, 01:40:51 AM
If ammo prices are such a great hurdle for you that you cant afford to buy 400 rounds for an appleseed and 40 rounds twice a month, then you should re-evaluate why you want a rifle in the first place.  maybe a gun isnt the right toy for you.  Perhaps try darts, I hear they can be re-used for quite sometime and sting like the Jerkens when they hit you.

If all you have WTSHTF is a LTR, then please, stay home on your couch and eat more bonbons.  I would rather have a man with a garand, appleseed qualified and 100 rounds than an expert sniper with an LTR and 5000 rounds.

I don't know if your aiming for humor or sarcasm, or a mix of both with this; but it does come off as rather disrespectful; and certainly not helpful in either case.



Thanks anyways.

Quote from: cannonman61 on December 30, 2007, 09:39:04 AM
Guys,

For what its worth, I think the disagreement is sort of silly. The point of all this is to get everyone up to rifleman speed.

To do this buy, if you dont already have a rifle, the rifle you want. Commit to firing whatever you buy, using the techniques taught here, a min of 40rds once or twice a month to become proficient.

Then, eval what you have and what you want to be able to do. The story is different for evryone!

None of us should make judgements on a mans choice of equipment unless it seriously impedes his journey to rifleman status. Just by trying the man is "waking up" and becomes an ally to be counted on.

Sow the seeds. Different rifles will pop up, but just like there are lots of phylum of apples, (Red, yellow, green, gold) there will be lots of different rifles. And, they are all good. To each his own and learn.

CM61

Take your logic somewhere else, this is a board for gun owners and there will be none of that here  ;D


BTW Cheap 22s can be had used for under $100 as not to disrupt your budget too much.

  EJ, The purpose of the LTR lies in the name, so think capitol T.  I shoot all manner of rifles, AR, M14, M1, etc, and when the groups go awry, I pick up the LTR. Why? Because it TRAINS me.

  Trigger control? Try not following though with that 22" Wal Mart special and see what happens. The rote training on the LTR directly translates to the trigger  on the other rifles and I not only save money on the cost of ammo by shooting .22, I save on the .30 and .223 as well, because each shot from the .30 or .223 is well placed, so I need to shoot it less.  The sight picture, proper breathing, magazine changes, all tranlate to the other rifles.

   I've found that folks who shoot only a .30 typically put off practice because of the costs, meaning less proficiency. Having the .22 in the fleet makes it easier to get out to the range, meaning more proficiency.  You can train to proficiency in the operation of a MBR in a matter of minutes. Training to proficiency in the fundamentals of marksmanship takes a lot of repetition and ongoing practice to build in the muscle memory and habits.  The money you save on .30 ammo will more than pay for the LTR. (.22 being 1/10 the cost of .30 or .223)

   My typical range day sees a lot of .22 at 25m, then perhaps 50 or 60 rounds of .30 at long ranges to make sure the data I have is good and reaquaint myself with the rifle and it's operation.

  I agree with Sgt C. You're likely going to end up with both anyway for the reasons explained, but if I had to chose the first one, it'd be a .22. Then when you acquire the MBR, you'll learn to shoot it well in less time/ rounds because you have the fundamentals down cold.

   Of course, this is free advice.  ;D   JB

 

Quote from: Francis Marion on December 30, 2007, 03:58:03 AM
The purpose of the LTR is to teach you to shoot, not replace, a LR.  Buying an LTR first simply means that the shooter can expend little money and obtain tens of thousands of rounds of practice.  Practicing sight alignment, breathing, trigger pull, positions.   The disciplice of shooting can be learned with either rifle, and they are parallel paths toward the same objective of riflery.  I'm less interested in which rifle is finally selected as I am delighted that a fellow wants to learn how to shoot who formerly did not.  For the purpose of learning to shoot, both rifles work.  They're different tools with different physical and economic implications. 

Thank you; that was my line of thinking as well.

Thanks to the others that offered helpful and insightful advise as well; it is very much appreciated.


In my own situation, I feel that training trumps hardware; and failing to train, is training to fail.  8)

[

Thank you; that was my line of thinking as well.

Thanks to the others that offered helpful and insightful advise as well; it is very much appreciated.

In my own situation, I feel that training trumps hardware; and failing to train, is training to fail.  8)
[/quote]

Good one EJ! I like that one!

CM61

QuoteUmmm, No. The Enfield 2-piece stock uses a through-bolt which can be tightened through the buttplate trap. If necessary, extra washers can be installed to take up any slack. In addition, the No 4's were available with 3 different length buttstocks to fit different sized Tommies (and people think the AR is the 1st "modular" rifle...) The Win. 94 uses upper and lower tangsand is a much weaker system, as well as being more difficult to bed correctly.
  The .303 is the ballistic brother to the .30 US (.30/40 Krag round) and much more effective at range than either of the 2 calibers you mentioned. 174 grs. at 2500 is rifle territory, not carbine. Most domestic commercial ammo is loaded light, but the same is true of 8x57, 7x57, 6.5x55, etc. etc.

I'm sorry; I sit humbly corrected.  I was not aware that the stock could be fixed that easily, and that the .303 was as powerful as you pointed out.  The loads I have come across advertised a 150gr bullet around 2400fps, rather than the standard 2700-ish fps common to .308, .30-06 and others.  I have since done some research on hodgdon and alliant powder loading resources and have seen 2700+fps capable for 150gr bullets.

I apologize for my slurs against the .303 British and the Enfield rifle.  They are apparently unfounded.

I still like the Mosin more though.    ;D

EJ:

Don't listen to Paul Shanks.

Quote
If ammo prices are such a great hurdle for you that you cant afford to buy 400 rounds for an appleseed and 40 rounds twice a month, then you should re-evaluate why you want a rifle in the first place.  maybe a gun isnt the right toy for you.  Perhaps try darts, I hear they can be re-used for quite sometime and sting like the Jerkens when they hit you.

No matter what anyone here tells you a 22 is not a substitute for a M1 garand.  It cannot even in the hands of an expert kill anything at 500 yards or even 400 yards.  If all you have WTSHTF is a LTR, then please, stay home on your couch and eat more bonbons.  I would rather have a man with a garand, appleseed qualified and 100 rounds than an expert sniper with an LTR and 5000 rounds.

Now please correct me If i'm wrong on any of the following points-

A rifleman can hit (and presumably kill) men consistently at out to 500 yards
the reason for hitting men at 500 yards is to defend the country and our freedoms
every rifleman should be able to do that when called upon with a rifle and ammo provided by him
applesed program is to train RIFLEMEN (and not smallbore champions)
the LTR is a good refresher tool to maintain the abilities of a rifleman
the LTR cannot perform the tasks required of it by a rifleman and therefore is not a rifle
a Rifleman without a rifle is a cook
therefore... LTR=SPATULA

A guy who can hit with an LTR is worth a lot more to me than a guy who CAN'T hit with a rifle he can't handle.  Get an LTR (or at least SOMETHING you can afford to shoot; doesn't have to be a Ruger 10/22).  Learn to shoot it.  Learn to shoot it well.  When/if bad things happen, there are lots of spare rifles out in the world.  Someone like me will be looking for a rifleman who can use one of my spare bangsticks with proficiency.

And that .22 will still work just fine; like the squirrel blunderbusses of 1775 along the road between Concord and Boston, it will drop a "redcoat" equivalent at up to 100 yards with a proper headshot; maybe even farther.

Quote from: EJ on December 30, 2007, 11:24:48 AM

Quote from: Paul Shanks on December 30, 2007, 01:40:51 AM
If ammo prices are such a great hurdle for you that you cant afford to buy 400 rounds for an appleseed and 40 rounds twice a month, then you should re-evaluate why you want a rifle in the first place.  maybe a gun isnt the right toy for you.  Perhaps try darts, I hear they can be re-used for quite sometime and sting like the Jerkens when they hit you.

If all you have WTSHTF is a LTR, then please, stay home on your couch and eat more bonbons.  I would rather have a man with a garand, appleseed qualified and 100 rounds than an expert sniper with an LTR and 5000 rounds.

I don't know if your aiming for humor or sarcasm, or a mix of both with this; but it does come off as rather disrespectful; and certainly not helpful in either case.



Thanks anyways.

Actually I was aiming for humour with the "sting like the dickens" thing, but the rest of it is dead serious.  I meant every single word of it.  If being a rifleman is such a low proirity to you, that you cant afford the 32 cents a round for CMP ammo, then you really do need to look at other ways to serve.  Rifle , ammo, and skill are all part and parcel to being a rifleman.  This nonsense that you can somehow make a difference politically without the tools to  institute change is absurd in the extreme.

I dont care if you had attended 20 appleseeds and practiced till you wore out a barrel of your LTR, you still do not have the one thing that makes you a rifleman.... A RIFLE.

You guys can berate me all you want.  Not one of you has disputed a single point of the ones i listed.  If you cant prove them wrong then they must be right.  You can give me 'yeah, but's' all day long and it wont do a darn thing to get this fella armed and trained.

I would remind you that this stuff I'm telling you comes directly from freds guide and his articles.  The great one has spoken on this.  It's not just some mean guy named Paul telling you this.

I dont disagree with the LTR, but it comes AFTER you have learned to shoot and operate your main rifle.  The LTR is for markmanship training not RIFLEMAN training.  And thats the goal of appleseed... to train RIFLEMEN.  It's why we are all here.

Better still listen to good old kengrant (another newb i presume ;) )get an AR/mini-14 and a ciener kit.  It's cheaper than 2 guns, allows the same manual of arms, ammo is cheaper in both calibers etc, etc.

Y'all just keep on your course and ignore disrespectful, mean ol Paul.  He dont know nothin anyway.  LTR is king, everything can be learned at 25 yards, you can just borrow a rifle if you need one.

Paul Shanks

 Old Ken Grant <<<<<<<< not a newb
Attended RWVA Rifleman's Boot Camp #1----made Rifleman shooting M14A
Attended Toccoa Appleseed #1-----shooting same Rifle
Have run a couple of Mini's at Gun Club
Run Grandkids and Great-Grandkids through AQT's all the time.

Due to physical problems, I have gone mostly to AR's and Conversion kits but have two LTR's for the kids and myself at times.
At Toccoa, I furnished ammo for myself, son and grandson along with rifles. M14A,Ar15 and 10/22 LTR plus paid fees for myself and son.
Very expensive weekend!!!!!
AR,Mini14 ,etc. with coversion kit is the way to go as I see it.

Quote from: Paul Shanks on December 30, 2007, 04:04:56 PM
If being a rifleman is such a low proirity to you...

This is an assumption on your part from having no perspective on my personal circumstances.

Quote from: Paul Shanks on December 30, 2007, 04:04:56 PM

Quote from: EJ on December 30, 2007, 11:24:48 AM

Quote from: Paul Shanks on December 30, 2007, 01:40:51 AM
If ammo prices are such a great hurdle for you that you cant afford to buy 400 rounds for an appleseed and 40 rounds twice a month, then you should re-evaluate why you want a rifle in the first place.  maybe a gun isnt the right toy for you.  Perhaps try darts, I hear they can be re-used for quite sometime and sting like the Jerkens when they hit you.

If all you have WTSHTF is a LTR, then please, stay home on your couch and eat more bonbons.  I would rather have a man with a garand, appleseed qualified and 100 rounds than an expert sniper with an LTR and 5000 rounds.

I don't know if your aiming for humor or sarcasm, or a mix of both with this; but it does come off as rather disrespectful; and certainly not helpful in either case.



Thanks anyways.

Actually I was aiming for humour with the "sting like the Jerkens" thing, but the rest of it is dead serious.  I meant every single word of it.  If being a rifleman is such a low proirity to you, that you cant afford the 32 cents a round for CMP ammo, then you really do need to look at other ways to serve.  Rifle , ammo, and skill are all part and parcel to being a rifleman.  This nonsense that you can somehow make a difference politically without the tools to  institute change is absurd in the extreme.

I dont care if you had attended 20 appleseeds and practiced till you wore out a barrel of your LTR, you still do not have the one thing that makes you a rifleman.... A RIFLE.

You guys can berate me all you want.  Not one of you has disputed a single point of the ones i listed.  If you cant prove them wrong then they must be right.  You can give me 'yeah, but's' all day long and it wont do a darn thing to get this fella armed and trained.

I would remind you that this stuff I'm telling you comes directly from freds guide and his articles.  The great one has spoken on this.  It's not just some mean guy named Paul telling you this.

I dont disagree with the LTR, but it comes AFTER you have learned to shoot and operate your main rifle.  The LTR is for markmanship training not RIFLEMAN training.  And thats the goal of appleseed... to train RIFLEMEN.  It's why we are all here.

Better still listen to good old kengrant (another newb i presume ;) )get an AR/mini-14 and a ciener kit.  It's cheaper than 2 guns, allows the same manual of arms, ammo is cheaper in both calibers etc, etc.

Y'all just keep on your course and ignore disrespectful, mean ol Paul.  He dont know nothin anyway.  LTR is king, everything can be learned at 25 yards, you can just borrow a rifle if you need one.

Paul Shanks

Your so far out of line it's sinful.

OK, EJ, question time on some of this, and a few comments on some of the suggestions.

The reasoning behind recommending an M1 Garand well up on the list is that CMP is planning on being out of the M1 business by the end of 2008, if possible. Their thoughts are that the next POTUS is likely to not be "gun friendly", so they're pushing them as hard as they can for now.

They have RUN OUT of M1's before, in the past couple of years, as well as 1903's and 03-A3's. CMP's prices can NOT be beat, unless you find a friend or a fool to sell you an M1 for the same or less (my Winchester M1 came from a GOOD friend).

So, I will suggest you get the LTR now, and the M1 later, if you can this year. The LTR makes an awesome trainer, and in the hands of a good shot, is effective (somewhat) out to 100 (plus a little) yards. But, MBR it isn't.

For the SMLE (Lee Enfield) fans out there, I have to say an Enfield is NOT a good deal any more (about $200 for one in good shape). Surplus ammo isn't all that plentiful, and military ammo is out of production. The 8mm Mauser military ammo is also out of production (for the most part) and the rifles are all that cheap, either, unless you get a Yugo or VZ-24, both of which are the best Mausers out there.

The Mosin Nagant, on the other hand, is still a good deal, military ammo is still being made, commercial ammo can be had cheap and the rifle is between a .308 and .30-06, power/trajectory wise. Avoid the M38 or M44 Carbines, though. Kick like a mule, obnoxious and less accurate. Get the 91/30, they can be had (wholesale) for about $60 to $75. The Finnish Mosins are really good, but cost about $200 (Wholesale).

I know some folks are going to dispute my comments on ammo availability and cost, remember, I'm in the ammo business (manufacturing and sales, part time), and I can tell you, do your homework (check Century arms), times have changed. 40 years ago, .303 ammo was easier to find than 7.62x54R, and 8mm Mauser was in between. No more.

Quote from: Paul Shanks on December 30, 2007, 04:04:56 PM

I dont care if you had attended 20 appleseeds and practiced till you wore out a barrel of your LTR, you still do not have the one thing that makes you a rifleman.... A RIFLE.

A rifle doth not a rifleman make.
If you have the skills of a rifleman and can demonstrate them then you are a rifleman. Those rifleman skills, once learned on an LTR, MBR, or your favorite hunting rifle, are almost completely portable.

Quote from: Paul Shanks on December 30, 2007, 04:04:56 PM

Quote from: EJ on December 30, 2007, 11:24:48 AM

Quote from: Paul Shanks on December 30, 2007, 01:40:51 AM
If ammo prices are such a great hurdle for you that you cant afford to buy 400 rounds for an appleseed and 40 rounds twice a month, then you should re-evaluate why you want a rifle in the first place.  maybe a gun isnt the right toy for you.  Perhaps try darts, I hear they can be re-used for quite sometime and sting like the Jerkens when they hit you.

If all you have WTSHTF is a LTR, then please, stay home on your couch and eat more bonbons.  I would rather have a man with a garand, appleseed qualified and 100 rounds than an expert sniper with an LTR and 5000 rounds.

I don't know if your aiming for humor or sarcasm, or a mix of both with this; but it does come off as rather disrespectful; and certainly not helpful in either case.



Thanks anyways.

Actually I was aiming for humour with the "sting like the Jerkens" thing, but the rest of it is dead serious.  I meant every single word of it.  If being a rifleman is such a low proirity to you, that you cant afford the 32 cents a round for CMP ammo, then you really do need to look at other ways to serve.  Rifle , ammo, and skill are all part and parcel to being a rifleman.  This nonsense that you can somehow make a difference politically without the tools to  institute change is absurd in the extreme.

I dont care if you had attended 20 appleseeds and practiced till you wore out a barrel of your LTR, you still do not have the one thing that makes you a rifleman.... A RIFLE.

You guys can berate me all you want.  Not one of you has disputed a single point of the ones i listed.  If you cant prove them wrong then they must be right.  You can give me 'yeah, but's' all day long and it wont do a darn thing to get this fella armed and trained.

I would remind you that this stuff I'm telling you comes directly from freds guide and his articles.  The great one has spoken on this.  It's not just some mean guy named Paul telling you this.

I dont disagree with the LTR, but it comes AFTER you have learned to shoot and operate your main rifle.  The LTR is for markmanship training not RIFLEMAN training.  And thats the goal of appleseed... to train RIFLEMEN.  It's why we are all here.

Better still listen to good old kengrant (another newb i presume ;) )get an AR/mini-14 and a ciener kit.  It's cheaper than 2 guns, allows the same manual of arms, ammo is cheaper in both calibers etc, etc.

Y'all just keep on your course and ignore disrespectful, mean ol Paul.  He dont know nothin anyway.  LTR is king, everything can be learned at 25 yards, you can just borrow a rifle if you need one.

Paul Shanks

I agree with some of your message, and disagree with some, also.  Doesn't matter much, I reckon.  Everybody has their own take on things.

What does matter, though, is that your wording of your posts is needlessly abrasive.  IOW, you are pissing off people that should be your friends.

Best of luck to ya, though.  FWIW, I'm guessing you'll need some luck.

Quote from: Nickle on December 30, 2007, 07:35:08 PM
The reasoning behind recommending an M1 Garand well up on the list is that CMP is planning on being out of the M1 business by the end of 2008, if possible. Their thoughts are that the next POTUS is likely to not be "gun friendly", so they're pushing them as hard as they can for now.

They have RUN OUT of M1's before, in the past couple of years, as well as 1903's and 03-A3's. CMP's prices can NOT be beat, unless you find a friend or a fool to sell you an M1 for the same or less (my Winchester M1 came from a GOOD friend).

Excellent; thank you! That is exactly the type of info. I was hoping to glean from this thread. I was totally unaware of that fact. That is definitely a worthy point of consideration.

I had already decided on getting an M1 from CMP; that was one of my main motivations in joining the RWVA.  ;)  I'll plan on eating a lot of Ramen if need be.  ;D

So, just what are the chances of pulling a lemon from the rack grades? 

Never been much of a gambler and I have no intimate knowledge of surplus firearms/ammo. Frankly, the "lower" grade descriptions from CMP sound awfully similar to a disclaimer.  :D

Just one man's experience:  I got two rack-grade M-1's from CMP a couple of years ago, mail-order, luck of the draw.  Both were somewhat frayed around the edges but fully serviceable, and they shoot at least as well as I do.

I've got a couple of things to say about .22's.

This quote is from Hatcher's Book of the Garand (again):

"The caliber .22 rifle can be used to much greater extent for training than it is at present."

The book was written in 1948 by a retired Major General of the US Army who spent almost 30 years in the Army.  Of those years almost 25 years was in ordnance development, training and on shooting teams.  If he believed .22's should be used more for training why would anyone argue against that?  

I've said this one before.  My 10/22 is pretty much stock except for the Tech Sights, the 1&1/4" sling swivels and GI web sling and the butt stock extension (to make it fit my long arms better).  I've actually gotten into a good sling supported prone position with my 10/22, got my sight picture, worked through my NPOA exercise and then started "looking" for the M1/M1A safety with my trigger finger before realizing it ain't my MBR!  It may not load like an M1 (with the magazines I have it actually does load similar to an M1A) but you can't beat it for really good, really inexpensive training at 25 yds., or even farther (50 to 100 yds.)  Don't knock it if you haven't tried it.  

I like my ciener kit for the CAR, too.  But I'm going to buy at least one more 10/22 for my son.

About CMP M1's.

The difference between a Rack Grade and a Service Grade is how much the barrel is worn, nothing more.

CMP rifles are what they say they are, and as to overall condition, it's luck of the draw. My Winchester came from CMP (before me), and I think the stock that was on it still had the bark on it, it was SO ugly. It was 100% safe and shoots real well, though. I simply replaced the stock with one I already had, and got a Winchester stock later (my bit, I wanted the rifle to be as close as possible to configuration it was in in 1943, when it was made).

I can say right up front, that no matter which grade you get from CMP, if they say it's shootable, it is. If the barrel is worn out, they either replace it with a usable barrel, or strip the rifle for the receiver. I'm buying a receiver soon for M1 #2, I've got all the parts but the receiver already. They check barrel wear, headspace and overall safe condition before selling them.

So, the odds of pulling a total lemon from "luck of the draw" at CMP is about zero.

I just bought a field grade and the bore gauges under a 1.  The only part on the rifle that is in need of replacement is the rear sight cover/spring.  I picked out my rifle at the South Store though... and as I went down the line of field grades only 2-3 gauged less than a 1, a good amount gauged less than 3, and there were a good handfull that were well over 3 and swallowed the gauge. 


You need to ask yourself what you are looking for.  Do you want a rifle to train with and shoot on a regular basis?  Build an LTR.  Do you want a MBR in case of SHTF?  There are tons of options... maybe an SKS with Tech Sights?  7.62x39 is cheaper than .223, .308, .303, .30-06... It just might be the cheapest centerfire rifle round(either it or the 7.62x54R). 

I myself bought the Garand for the sake of history.  I love history and always have.  Heck, I started out as a history major in college(that was before I realized that a history major will never make any money).  I bought the M1 because I wanted a piece of history AND I wanted something I could practice with out to 500 yards(I already have a .22 bolt action that is plenty accurate out to 100 yards... accurate enough that I qualified rifleman with it at an Appleseed). 

You can always buy a M1A later on in life if you don't care about getting a Garand.  That being said, if you really do want an original GI garand you need to get one NOW.  You might consider just getting the M1 Garand and instead of buying $300 worth of ammo you buy a .22 and some ammo. 

Like I said, it all depends on what you want.  I've been dry firing the Garand every night this week after I humiliated myself at the range the first time I used my Garand.

Good luck and I hope you are happy with your decision.  Spend some time running the numbers(Seriously... I made an Excel spreadsheet showing all of my options before I bought my CMP Garand), and spend some time deciding what you are REALLY looking for in your rifle.  Whatever you do, make sure you get yourself to the first Appleseed in your area with whatever you buy!

None of us can tell you what YOU want, you need to decide that.

Off topic, sorry.



"I live in NH; it seems BG's don't care to commit as many crimes when there is just as good a chance that their intended victim may be better armed than they are."

New Hampshire-Live free or die!!

Nice.

Serf

Quote from: BoltGuy on December 30, 2007, 10:07:26 PM
You need to ask yourself what you are looking for.  Do you want a rifle to train with and shoot on a regular basis?  Build an LTR.  Do you want a MBR in case of SHTF?  There are tons of options... maybe an SKS with Tech Sights?  7.62x39 is cheaper than .223, .308, .303, .30-06... It just might be the cheapest centerfire rifle round(either it or the 7.62x54R). 


None of us can tell you what YOU want, you need to decide that.

Good point.  ;)

Ultimately I would like to have, at a minimum, a "trainer" and an MBR.

For an MBR, I was considering an M1A or a FAL, but the prices I've seen on those keep them out of my reach for the foreseeable future. The M1 just seemed to be the next "best", most cost effective, solution. No sentimentality involved.

My considerations for choosing an MBR were reliability, accuracy, availability of ammo, ease of maintenance/availability of parts.

This is all just theoretical pre-planning, as I have never even held any of the rifles mentioned. My choices are basically coming from recommendations from books, websites, & friends ( who know much more than I on the subject.)

Quote from: socalserf on December 30, 2007, 10:14:49 PM
New Hampshire-Live free or die!!

Nice.

Serf

I prefer just Live Free!  ;) ;D

socalserf, even most of our Liberals are armed, up here in Northern New England (NH, VT, ME) and Upstate NY.

EJ, as the owner of a FAL, M14 clone (Fed Ord version of the M1A) and an M1, I can tell you the M1 is NOT a bad choice. Between the 3 there is NO bad choice. A FAL can be had for more than the M1, but less than an M1A/M14 clone.

You may want to contact crak and see what he's got going over the near term. He owns an M1A, and there's several folks around that have M1's and FAL's.

If you haven't finalized this before the West Leb/WRJ gun show in Feb, let me know ahead of time, I can arrange to have all 3 there for you to handle, and an LTR as well.

Advise  free & desposable
Get an LTR (save some money while training) if you can aford it go to a bootcamp (weeklong training) you will most likely find riflemen there that will let you check out there rifles (take some ammo and they may let you fire them) find out what you like before you buy an MBR.
On the sks there are 3 things I do not like about it  its heavy for what it is  being a carbine 7.62x39  and the sight's.
, that being said I own 3 of them  .
I can only carry 1 rifle at a time in my truck(limeted space) so I carry my m-1 garand .
I also own a cetme but I find that the better sights on the m-1 more then make up for the  20 round mag
There is no perfact rifle  no one size fits all, just don't try to buy them all to find that out .

I hope this help's you save money and find the right MBR for you

I can tell you from my own expirence there is not much worse  then to put down your hard cash down on a rifle
only to get it to the range and find you really don't like it ( in my case it was an mas 49/56 in .308 and other's)

Is there any of us with a few rifle's that live close to you that would let you try there MBR ? I think most of us are prourd of our rifle's and love to show them off teach what we know about them etc,, just an idea.
Wade

AZRedhawk44

You wrote-
<<I'm sorry; I sit humbly corrected.  I was not aware that the stock could be fixed that easily, and that the .303 was as powerful as you pointed out.  The loads I have come across advertised a 150gr bullet around 2400fps, rather than the standard 2700-ish fps common to .308, .30-06 and others.  I have since done some research on hodgdon and alliant powder loading resources and have seen 2700+fps capable for 150gr bullets.

I apologize for my slurs against the .303 British and the Enfield rifle.  They are apparently unfounded.

I still like the Mosin more though.    >>

No apologies needed. In spite of all the political turmoil around us and facing us, the economic uncertainties, and the fact that our way of life is vanishing (which is what we're currently fighting), we still live in the greatest country in the world, which is, as Col. Cooper put it, "The last best hope for the world." We should ALL take a moment or two and reflect and rejoice upon that fact, one small aspect of which is that we have so many choices available to us!
Spat-

PS. I never said that the Mosin was not a good choice, I just think there are better ones available....

  PPS. I appreciate the your being man enough to apologize. Acts of contrition are few and far between around here....

Quote from: Nickle on December 30, 2007, 09:37:37 PM
About CMP M1's.

The difference between a Rack Grade and a Service Grade is how much the barrel is worn, nothing more.

I can say right up front, that no matter which grade you get from CMP, if they say it's shootable, it is.

So, the odds of pulling a total lemon from "luck of the draw" at CMP is about zero.

Thanks. With the M1, I'm mainly concerned with proper function, not cosmetics.  Don't have any desire to find out, after a few hundred rounds sent downrange, that I need to replace a major component.

Quote from: Nickle on December 30, 2007, 11:05:42 PM
If you haven't finalized this before the West Leb/WRJ gun show in Feb, let me know ahead of time, I can arrange to have all 3 there for you to handle, and an LTR as well.

That would be awesome; I will be moving to a new apt. at the end of Jan. and I recently wrecked the tranny in my p.o.s. car; so everything is still up n the air at this point. I'm not one to let challenges hold me back and figure, I will at least try to do the best I can, with what I have.

Quote from: Wade on December 30, 2007, 11:25:59 PM

There is no perfact rifle  no one size fits all, just don't try to buy them all to find that out .

I hope this help's you save money and find the right MBR for you

I can tell you from my own expirence there is not much worse  then to put down your hard cash down on a rifle
only to get it to the range and find you really don't like it ( in my case it was an mas 49/56 in .308 and other's)

Is there any of us with a few rifle's that live close to you that would let you try there MBR ? I think most of us are prourd of our rifle's and love to show them off teach what we know about them etc,, just an idea.
Wade

Thanks Wade; good advice. I have been through that with musical instruments; exactly why I'm doing my homework and hoping to get some practical hands on experience before a purchase.

As soon as I am in a position to try out some rifles, I will be asking around.   ;)

Little late to this thread... wow, lots of emotion running around here!

EJ, I'm down in Marlboro, MA, and can let you try out a stock 10/22, an LTR, AND a Garand. Not to mention a "bubba-ized" Enfield (someone put a scope on it). Feel free to shoot me a PM any time.

I'll also be ordering parts and changing my stock 10/22 into an LTR, so if you want to come down and observe the process, that's fine, too.


BTW... since I'm not native to MA, I reject the title of MA******... I prefer to say that I'm a refugee from NJ.  ;)  Yes, we have true Americans in both states. Sorely outnumbered, but we're here.

Quote from: dwarven1 on December 31, 2007, 02:08:14 PM
BTW... since I'm not native to MA, I reject the title of MA******...

No disrespect intended; being labeled a MA****** is from ones state of mind and actions; not simply due to residence or birthplace.   ;)


Thank you for the offer.  :)

No offense taken.

The Dwarven1 may be originally from "Joisey", and transplanted to Mass, but he's not really a Flatlander.

"He ain't a hick from heah, but he's a hick from someweah."

EJ,
  I should clarify my remarks somewhat as its apparent that they are being misinterpreted.

If you cannot afford an M1 and ALL you can afford is a 22, then it is better to be armed than a slave.

If you have the choice between the two, then by all means get the rifle.  My logic behind this is that it doesnt cost a whole lot to get trained and maintain that training with a few AQT's a month.  If the increased cost of ammo between the 22 and the real rifle is whats stopping you from owning it then i refer you again to the darts comment.  Ammo cost should never be the deciding factor when the gun you are looking at has ammo priced similarly or cheaper than other real rifles.

If you really are serious about an affordable gun, magazines and ammo then the best deal on the market today BAR NONE is the AK74 5.45 rifles from century.  guns cost $300, ammo is 12 cents a round and mags are about $13.  You can mod the sights and scope it later if you want, to make it capable at 500 yards (yeah really, an ak can do 500 if equipped right in the 5,45 caliber). 

Also I would point out that a 22 has about 59 ft lbs of energy at 200 yards and has dropped 19 MOA, and a mild 10Mph wind has pushed it at least 16".  even a head shot would not be fatal at this range as it will bounce off the skull or fail to penetrate deep enough.  It is just not a substitute for a rifle when it comes to defense.


lest any of you forget this salient point allow me to remind you.

a citizen without a gun is a slave
the government, the radical islamists and all who wish to do this country harm are not afraid of your letters, your phone calls or your .22.
I case you doubt that, remember back 2 months ago when the  senate voted 57-43 to APPROVE amnesty for illegals, despite 90% of the calls and letters to them being against it. 
I wonder what the vote would have been if 10,000 riflemen showed up armed with an M1 garand and 120 rounds of ammo? ?(

make no mistake about it, You are learning  how to stand on the line and be a deterrent to invasion and tyranny, and you cant do that with a .22.

In short the garand aint that expensive to shoot and maintain.;)

I hate to be the one to break it to you, but they don't fear your rifle either.   :-\

The pen is mightier than the sword and will continue to be so untill someone proves otherwise.  The leasons of history are long forgotten in Washington and we can only hope to rekindle them across the American countryside.  Hence the Appleseed program.

If it ever get to the point of taking up arms and manning a post, weapons will be the easy part.  Finding men to use them and do it well will be the problem.

Hey guys (& gals), the purpose of the LTR covers a large area.

It is fairly cheap to buy and set up for the benefit you'll get from it.

Ammo is available for an unbeatable price virtually everywhere you may take it (compare that to the MBR calibers).

Due to 1 and 2 above it is a great way to get new people started shooting a rifle and for you to practice the basics).

You (and other newbies) can learn the basics of rifle marksmanship with it.

You can practice with it places you can't practice with an MBR (in door ranges, areas where homes may be close enough that the noise of an MBR is objectionable to your neighbors.)

You can use it for small game hunting (getting some practice at camoflage, stealthy movement, stalking, etc. that may come in handy later).

If you really want some extended range practice take the 25 meter standing stage targets and place them at 25 meters (standing stage), 50 meters (sitting stage), 75 meters (prone rapid fire stage) and 100 meters (400 meter prone slow fire). 

I wouldn't deny the appeal of a full power cartridge but the purpose of the LTR is not to replace an MBR for anything but training.

Quote from: SGTCap on December 31, 2007, 09:34:38 PM
If it ever get to the point of taking up arms and manning a post, weapons will be the easy part.  Finding men to use them and do it well will be the problem.

I thought THAT'S what appleseed was for?

Quote from: Paul Shanks on January 01, 2008, 01:56:47 AM

Quote from: SGTCap on December 31, 2007, 09:34:38 PM
If it ever get to the point of taking up arms and manning a post, weapons will be the easy part.  Finding men to use them and do it well will be the problem.

I thought THAT'S what appleseed was for?

First and foremost, Appleseed is about waking up Americans so that they might fight and win the "Soft War" and not have to send 10,000 armed men to Washington to "persuade" Congress to do the right thing.  If the Soft War is lost, then Appleseed will have failed in its' primary mission.

Maybe the "waking-up" process is working, because the illegal immigration bill you mentioned in a previous post failed to become law without a single American taking their Garand to the Capitol.

It might be worthwhile to repeat this Appleseed statement here:

"The Revolutionary War Veterans Association (RWVA) is a gun club and an instructional school that teaches rifle shooting techniques; and also desires to maintain the heritage of the American Rifleman.

We have no affiliation with, nor do we promote or encourage, any subversive or quasi-subversive entities or acts against the United States of America or against the American People, inside or outside U.S. borders.

Any and all instruction and training conducted by RWVA is done in accordance with Federal, State and Local Laws and regulations. RWVA does not and will not train any foreign or domestic entity(ies) that could pose a threat to -- or has denounced -- the United States of America."

Quote from: raf on January 01, 2008, 03:01:09 AM

Quote from: Paul Shanks on January 01, 2008, 01:56:47 AM

Quote from: SGTCap on December 31, 2007, 09:34:38 PM
If it ever get to the point of taking up arms and manning a post, weapons will be the easy part.  Finding men to use them and do it well will be the problem.

I thought THAT'S what appleseed was for?

First and foremost, Appleseed is about waking up Americans so that they might fight and win the "Soft War" and not have to send 10,000 armed men to Washington to "persuade" Congress to do the right thing.  If the Soft War is lost, then Appleseed will have failed in its' primary mission.

Maybe the "waking-up" process is working, because the illegal immigration bill you mentioned in a previous post failed to become law without a single American taking their Garand to the Capitol.

It might be worthwhile to repeat this Appleseed statement here:

Thank you Raf.  Thats the point I have been trying to make.  The waking up process can take place with almost any firearm, even a borrowed one.  We are not trying to arm a militia here.  We are trying to get people interested in shooting and their conservative roots.

Let me make something perfectly clear here.

Politicians fear exactly ONE thing.

Educated Voters.

Why? Because enough Educated Voters will not re-elect them to office, and they know that. They also know they can Buffalo (BS) the public most of the time, especially when the Media plays to their agenda.

What Appleseed does is awaken the sleeping American to what is going on, and give him an appreciation of what our forefathers had to do, so we DON'T have to do it again.

I think at this point, EJ knows which route he's taking. It's his choice. We've shown him several routes he can travel, and soon, our personal biases will play into our comments (truth be known, they are already). Soon this will devolve into an LTR or MBR thread, more than it already is.

So, let's work with him to get him going down his chosen path, and give him all the support, encouragement and assistance we can.

Quote from: Nickle on January 01, 2008, 12:59:54 PM
Let me make something perfectly clear here.

Politicians fear exactly ONE thing.

Educated Voters.

Why? Because enough Educated Voters will not re-elect them to office, and they know that. They also know they can Buffalo (BS) the public most of the time, especially when the Media plays to their agenda.

What Appleseed does is awaken the sleeping American to what is going on, and give him an appreciation of what our forefathers had to do, so we DON'T have to do it again.

then why even bother with the guns at all?  it seems that if this indeed the case that we would be better served by holding a weekend seminar on history and political action!!  Heck if all that needs to be done is to educate ourselves and communicate with our representitives, then we can just ignore the true intent of the 2nd amendment altogether and just depend on the first. 

Maybe EJ should just take that money for the rifle and buy some stamps and calling cards.

If they really do ONLY fear educated voters, then we dont need guns at all.

Paul, I think you fail to grasp how you get the target audience to show up in the first place for one.

You also have a limited grasp on what RWVA is about.

We in NO way, shape, form or manner advocate violent overthrow of the US Government.

Sarcasm is not an effective way to talk to folks here, and I can say that it isn't acceptable here, either.

EJ wishes to learn how to shoot and how to change the way things are in the US.

He may or may not agree with your ideas on what to buy or how to do that. Others may agree or disagree with your ideas on how to accomplish that, and what to own.

How about trying to respect that.

Quote from: EJ on December 28, 2007, 01:57:17 PM
Thanks guys.

Well, obviously if I could afford both, I would have both.( or more...  ;D ) Present personal circumstances dictate otherwise unfortunately.

I would also rather not be stuck with just a .22 should a serious situation develop.

Choices, choices, choices.... Theres always some trade-off.

Consider this;

You are the lead man on a task force and there is a bad guy behind the door with a 10/22 loaded with 10 rounds of CCI Mini Mag HP'.

You are told that the bad guy knows very well how to use the 10/22 and could put 5 rounds between your shirt pockets in less than a second.

You are told you have the choice to go through the door or not go.  You have 5 seconds to decide. 5.....4.....3.....2.....1...... Go or not go?

Quote from: Paul Shanks on January 01, 2008, 05:09:01 PM

Quote from: Nickle on January 01, 2008, 12:59:54 PM
Let me make something perfectly clear here.

Politicians fear exactly ONE thing.

Educated Voters.

Why? Because enough Educated Voters will not re-elect them to office, and they know that. They also know they can Buffalo (BS) the public most of the time, especially when the Media plays to their agenda.

What Appleseed does is awaken the sleeping American to what is going on, and give him an appreciation of what our forefathers had to do, so we DON'T have to do it again.

then why even bother with the guns at all?  it seems that if this indeed the case that we would be better served by holding a weekend seminar on history and political action!!  Heck if all that needs to be done is to educate ourselves and communicate with our representitives, then we can just ignore the true intent of the 2nd amendment altogether and just depend on the first. 

Maybe EJ should just take that money for the rifle and buy some stamps and calling cards.

If they really do ONLY fear educated voters, then we dont need guns at all.

The hope is that guns will not be necessary.

Violence is a last resort, as the Founding Fathers provided for in the 2A.  An intelligent person will prepare for all alternatives, but will work hard to avoid the Hard War.

Any person who refuses to fight the Soft War and instead wishes to instigate violence to effect change is a fool.  A dangerous fool.

Quote from: Nickle on January 01, 2008, 05:25:31 PM
EJ wishes to learn how to shoot and how to change the way things are in the US.

That sums it up perfectly Nickle. I'm not here to debate or argue about personal politics or preferred tactics. I frequent political/social activism fora for that.

I was only seeking advice on how I may do that, in the most expedient and efficient manner possible as far as firearms are concerned.


Just so it's perfectly clear:

I do not condone the initiation of force or aggressive actions against anyone, or any entity.

I believe in being prepared. I would rather have something and not need to use it, than need it and not have it to use. IME, in order to use something "properly", training/proper practice is needed.

I pray I never need fire a single round for the defense of life, or in the defense of our liberties and freedoms. Yet if needed, I want to have the self-assurance I am able to do so.


I'm sorry this thread has devolved into what it currently is; was not my intention at all.

I am very grateful for all the advice and perspectives offered, and hope we can focus on our similarities, rather than our differences.


United we stand, divided we fall.

Quote from: EJ on January 01, 2008, 07:26:03 PM

Quote from: Nickle on January 01, 2008, 05:25:31 PM
EJ wishes to learn how to shoot and how to change the way things are in the US.

That sums it up perfectly Nickle. I'm not here to debate or argue about personal politics or preferred tactics. I frequent political/social activism fora for that.

I was only seeking advice on how I may do that, in the most expedient and efficient manner possible as far as firearms are concerned.


Just so it's perfectly clear:

I do not condone the initiation of force or aggressive actions against anyone, or any entity.

I believe in being prepared. I would rather have something and not need to use it, than need it and not have it to use. IME, in order to use something "properly", training/proper practice is needed.

I pray I never need fire a single round for the defense of life, or in the defense of our liberties and freedoms. Yet if needed, I want to have the self-assurance I am able to do so.


I'm sorry this thread has devolved into what it currently is; was not my intention at all.

I am very grateful for all the advice and perspectives offered, and hope we can focus on our similarities, rather than our differences.


United we stand, divided we fall.

EJ, don't sweat how this thread changed; none of your doing.  Yours is a legitimate question, and informed people can differ as you've no doubt noticed.  The thread may have taken some peculiar twists and turns, but that's not your fault.  Such things happen all the time on the internet, and the rest of us can use such incidents as learning opportunities, if nothing else.  No harm, no foul on your part, IMHO.

Alright.

This one has gone far enough.

I have banned others for continued animosity, and will do so again.

Everyone, remeber, this is not your average gun (or other) forum, where you can spout off with out thought or controll and attack/disrespect/mock or otherwise be rude as a normal course.

ALL.  We do not go for this type of shenaingans.  Treat others here as you would like to be treated.  We are like a family here, and we need to treat eachother accordingly.

Guy

Man Guy......My family just left and I was happy to see them go.  They brought colds, broke a bed, backed up the toilet and taught my childeren "new words".......You mean that kind of family :o ;D

Play nicely All, I have seen The Guy really mad, and it ain't pretty (not that it was a big step from normal for him ;)).

BTW, personal attacks on "The Guy" are exempt from adverse actions by the administration! :P

Back on topic:

LTR or M1, assuming you can only afford one?

Tough call.  Cheaper practice ammo vs. a more-costly round that's better for shooting at longer ranges.

I guess I'd choose the .22, with the understanding I'd be putting my savings on ammo into a jar labelled 'Garand fund.'

I can tell you that Ken S. was hotting the 200 yard pop up in Ramsuer, and knocking it down, shot after shot.  I can't recall if he had to stop at 400, or 300, due to lack of scope adjustment, but it was farther than I thought a .22 would reach.

A M1 is the more powerful choice, yet I beleive the .22 would be of more use right now.

What I (me, and sugestion only!) would do is to get the LTR set up, and to start stocking up on all the 30-06 ammo I could afford.  It won't get cheaper any time soon, and it seems that the Garand is the way you want to go.  You will always be able to find a Garand somewhere for purchase, but the ammo will only be getting harder to find, and will rise in cost faster than inflation, while the gunshow Garands will raise with inflation.

Plus, a 6 month or more wait won't change the CMP price that much.

Only if a new AWB comes in 09 would I get in a panic to get one, and then only maybe.

Good luck, and I hope to see you on a firing line someday.

Guy

Quote from: EJ on December 28, 2007, 12:53:48 PM
Hi all;

If someone could only afford to purchase a LTR or a rack-grade M1;( w/o having the option of hand-picking; never mind possible replacement parts/ammo) which would be the wiser investment?

Any alternative advice/suggestions for us "po" folk?  :-\

T.I.A  ;)

EJ

I'm assuming that you do not presently own a rifle.

I would suggest you ask yourself what is the primary purpose of your purchase of a rifle and how many rounds you expect to fire it on an annual basis.

If learning marksmanship and shooting for recreation is your goal then I would suggest a 22 of some kind.  If Appleseed type of marksmanship is your goal, then you cannot do better than the Ruger 10/22.

If the primary reason is for personal / national defense then a cmp M1 would be first choice.

Good Luck

Quote from: The Guy on January 02, 2008, 01:09:26 AM

Only if a new AWB comes in 09 would I get in a panic to get one, and then only maybe.

Guy

Hey Guy, I like your suggestions better than mine.

The softwar battle of 08 is only 10 months away, about the time of the end of the 2008 appleseed season.

We don't need no stinking AWB

Quote from: The Guy on January 02, 2008, 01:09:26 AM
I can tell you that Ken S. was hotting the 200 yard pop up in Ramsuer, and knocking it down, shot after shot.  I can't recall if he had to stop at 400, or 300, due to lack of scope adjustment, but it was farther than I thought a .22 would reach.

A M1 is the more powerful choice, yet I beleive the .22 would be of more use right now.

What I (me, and sugestion only!) would do is to get the LTR set up, and to start stocking up on all the 30-06 ammo I could afford.  It won't get cheaper any time soon, and it seems that the Garand is the way you want to go.  You will always be able to find a Garand somewhere for purchase, but the ammo will only be getting harder to find, and will rise in cost faster than inflation, while the gunshow Garands will raise with inflation.

Plus, a 6 month or more wait won't change the CMP price that much.

Only if a new AWB comes in 09 would I get in a panic to get one, and then only maybe.

Good luck, and I hope to see you on a firing line someday.

Guy

I'm surprised a 22 had the energy to know anything down at 200meters.  I know I practice on clay pigeons at about 100meters and that is a lot of fun but boringly easy.  ;D

     A penny thrown at a pop-up will trigger them. I've seen people knock them down at 300 without much prob (remember the story I like to tell of the British champion shot who back in 1940 conducted tests with a .22 rimfire [standard velocity!] and determined to his satisfaction that if you "had nothing but a .22", you'd have a weapon that could "do some good" on the enemy [thick-necked Germans, at the time!]).

     In fact, in pre-RWVA days, we had a ".22/400 yard" fraternity - you had to 'ring the gong' on an AQT-size metal target at 400 yards twice in a row (ten shots allowed) to get into the group.

     First, it was off the bench.

     Then, people got off the bench, finding the bench too easy.

     Then, someone issued a "standing" challenge - and it was done standing.

     Then, a pistol shooter said he could do it - and did - off the bench.

     Then, a pistol shooter said he could do it, standing - and did, THREE times in a row, on a dark windy dusk so dark you couldn't see the target - but you could hear it "ding" as he hit it.

      His complaint? "I was having to hold about fifty feet over, using the blue sky in a gap in the trees as my aiming point - and the wind was making the trees sway so the gap kept disappearing on me!"

I think I would go for the 10/22 first. Stock up on 22 ammo and when you feel you have a good stockpile stored up start buying 3006. When you can afford it, buy the Garand.

If the time comes when you need a rifle for personal/national defense, that's not all you are going to need. You are going to need a way to feed yourself and your family too. If you live in the eastern 2/3rds of the country (and most of us do) nothing will feed you better than a 22 rifle. No fuss, not much noise and you can find small game anywhere. It will help defend a garden too.

VAshooter

Quote from: The Guy on January 02, 2008, 01:09:26 AM

Plus, a 6 month or more wait won't change the CMP price that much.

No, it won't change the price much, but it may change availability from CMP. They've been planning on getting out of the Surplus Rifle end of it this year, if they can (before the political climate changes). Not many folks know that, but it is out there. And, they're running low on M1's, have run OUT in fact a couple of times in the past few years.

Folks, the inside info is that EJ is planning on really biting the bullet, so to say, and getting both an LTR and an M1 (assuming he likes the M1).

Quote from: Fred on January 02, 2008, 03:32:54 AM

     A penny thrown at a pop-up will trigger them.

      His complaint? "I was having to hold about fifty feet over, using the blue sky in a gap in the trees as my aiming point - and the wind was making the trees sway so the gap kept disappearing on me!"

Are those pop up's the electronic type that senses bullet impact?

I have had the opportunity to use those a few times and they are interesting indeed.  They could be programmed to require multiple hits also.  1, 2, 3 or could be made to reappear after a hit.  Sure was fun.

Regarding the 22 LR again (the world's most underrated cartridge);

In my younger days I have made many trips to Wyoming, SD, MT and a few other states in an attempt to wipe out prairie poodle towns.  The general practice was to start with the 22 LR (I had best results with Winchester Power Points).  On windless days out to 75 yards the greatest difference between 22 center fires and the 22 LR was the absence of Red Mist, and the aerial display.  100 yards is about the limit of my ability with the 22 LR, however my cousin that I hunted with and the best field shot I have ever seen was devastating out to 125 +.  We frequently stepped off our shots to cross check our range estimation.  I recall on our last hunt stepping off 214 LONG steps on one of Charles's 22 LR shots with his Marlin 39A sighted with a Tasco 4 X 16.

I wonder if Fred would agree that "Power Certainly has It's Place but Is Not a Substitute for Marksmanship"?

There is a lot to be said about "SHOT PLACEMENT".

Much as I love shooting my .22 LTRs of various kinds, my advice to the OP would be to go ahead and get the CMP M1 NOW, while you still can. A year from now, or two, you'll still be able to buy and build up a LTR for little if any more than today's prices. I don't think it's as easy to say that about M1s. If you wait, you might miss the boat on that completely, or an M1 might cost substantially more than one does today.

Back in the '70s, I had the chance to buy a decent IHC Garand for about what two fairly nice .22 rifles would have cost me. I bought it (even though I didn't get a nice .22 until several years later) and I've never regretted that decision for one minute.

Well heck, he may be getting both anyway, so that is a WIN-WIN for sure.

Quote from: TwoGlock on January 02, 2008, 01:16:15 AM
I'm assuming that you do not presently own a rifle.

If learning marksmanship and shooting for recreation is your goal then I would suggest a 22 of some kind.  If Appleseed type of marksmanship is your goal, then you cannot do better than the Ruger 10/22.

Affirmative; I currently only own a single handgun.

Outside of taking a basic NRA rifle safety course and going plinking a couple of times with a .22 as a young teen; I have n hands-on experience with rifles. Which is rather embarrassing considering my family's history; my grandfather was a gunsmith with Olin, and Winchester for one.  :-[

Learning proper marksmanship is the main reason I am here. I hope to make the most of my experience and learn as much as I can.

Quote from: The Guy on January 02, 2008, 01:09:26 AM
What I (me, and sugestion only!) would do is to get the LTR set up, and to start stocking up on all the 30-06 ammo I could afford.  It won't get cheaper any time soon, and it seems that the Garand is the way you want to go.  You will always be able to find a Garand somewhere for purchase, but the ammo will only be getting harder to find, and will rise in cost faster than inflation...

For that reason alone, perhaps a rifle chambered in another caliber would be a more sound investment for me?

I have researched this type of info. on several firearms related forums and seems there is no consensus; and the amount of differing perspectives really makes it difficult for us noobs.

From what Ive been reading rifles using 5.56 aren't considered true MBR's

Perhaps I'm just getting this all twisted.

I'm not particularly attached to getting an M1; it just happens to be the most cost effective solution for a "real" MBR, for me at this time.

I hope to have several rifles eventually; an LTR and an MBR just happen to be at the top of the list.

5.56 is an intermediate power round, between a service pistol and 7.62 NATO-class an MBR.
5.56, though smaller than 7.62, is accurate, used successfully in NRA High Power shooting to punch paper at 600 yds, and its terminal ballistics (stopping power) can be enhanced by selecting hunting ammunition or hollow points.  The cost of ammunition, cartridge weight, penetration, and cost of reloading are all less than 7.62 NATO. 
5.56 is firmly established here in the US, and is our current military cartridge, of course, not to mention a NATO standard round. 
5.56 rifles can be converted to fire 22 rimfire for around $150.  I think you'd be happy with a 5.56, and again it's my view that there's no wrong rifle for learning how to shoot.  ARs have superb ergonomics, are modular and adaptable, and easy for kids and ladies to shoot.   
I'd suggest you shoot M1A, Garand, AR, LTR, etcetera and see what you think of them prior to buying- I'm sure somebody near you would be able to meet you at a range or an Appleseed. 
What's interesting is that while the military can implement a vast array of heavy machine guns, crew served weapons, cannons, etcetera against vehicles, buildings and hard targets, the only implement an armed citizen may bring to bear against some national threat, like the contemplated Japanese invasion of our nation proper during WW2, is their personal firearm. 
It is my opinion that diligent, conscientious Americans should take it upon themselves to learn how to shoot rifles in order to be squared away prior to joining or being drafted into the military, mainly.  Second best reason, because it's less likely to happen than the previous, is that the private arms of the US population, and our will to use them, are both the deterrent to and the response to, foreign invasion.  I don't know how much warning we had prior to the outbreak of hostilities with Japan, but we learn from our history, as we did on 9/11, that world events take nasty, rapid turns, so we need to be ready at all times.  The third good reason to learn how to shoot is because the Founders saw an armed citizenry as the best guarantor of their liberty.  We may not swear oaths like police, soldiers and presidents to uphold and defend the Constitution, but nevertheless, that's our duty, too.  And a meaningful, concrete step in our defense of our nation and Constitution is our rifle marksmanship.  Now these are all excellent reasons, and I've ranked them by my idea of their likelihood of being needed. 
But for any, and for all of these, I'd like to commend you for what is your right, proper and American desire to learn how to shoot.  It's a pleasure to have people like you stepping on board- what regular people like you have done makes this whole effort worthwhile, and is the reason we're all here.         

perhaps one of the CMMG AR's from the bargain bin and a ceiner kit would beter suit you?

As for the AR not being a true MBR, yes and no.  It doesnt have the power of 308 or 30-06, thats for sure.  keep in mind though that it has been the main service weapon for all branches of the military for decades.  There are thousands of dead folks across the glode that will attest to its ability to kill when needed.  Everyone from Cooks to Special Forces carry a m4/m16 platformed weapon in 5.56.  Its still an effective round.  THe great thing about the AR is that it is very versital and modular.  I think thats why it is so popular.  You can upgrade it as money allows with almost no limitations.  And it is hard to beat for accurracy.  I maintain that the worst ARs will shoot as well as the best m1 latform weapons.

Good points, all.

SGTCap mentioned the AR as another alternative, and the current CMMG bargain deal puts this within the mid-range shopper's range (just remember it is a flat-top without a rear sight, so you'll need to add one -- here's a good deal on one http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=372401, and here's another http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=873271&t=11082005 ). 
Long term considerations for your main rifle should include parts.  Garand parts aren't scarce, but they aren't clogging up the gun shows like they used to, either.  AR parts are currently available.  I'm assuming you live in a state that doesn't fear the Evil Black Rifle.

QuoteWhat I (me, and sugestion only!) would do is to get the LTR set up, and to start stocking up on all the 30-06 ammo I could afford.  It won't get cheaper any time soon, and it seems that the Garand is the way you want to go. 

Good point.  Even with the price increase in 2007, CMP .30-06 ammo is still under $0.30/rd, cheaper than ANY OTHER RIFLE CARTRIDGE.  Hard to turn down a deal like that.

Short answer -- any of the options you and others ahve brought up would be good ones.  Get the one you can afford and can afford to shoot and go out and 9wait for it...)  shoot your rifle!

And don't forget the 6 Steps.

I don't believe that the worst AR's will shoot better than the best M1's (I have a lot of rounds through both) but I will agree that the best AR's will shoot better than the best M1's.

That is not an issue because thats talking about match grade weapons. A good rack grade AR will probably edge out a good rack grade M1 but it would be very close.

Francis Marion brought up a good point that the military has an array of weapons to back up the M16 while the civilian is limited to whatever he carries. You will never get a consesus on what is the best rifle. There are way too many shooters emotionally tied to their favorite.

VAshooter

Quote from: SGTCap on January 03, 2008, 12:38:48 PM
perhaps one of the CMMG AR's from the bargain bin and a ceiner kit would beter suit you?

As for the AR not being a true MBR, yes and no.  It doesnt have the power of 308 or 30-06, thats for sure.  Its still an effective round.

Quote from: VAshooter on January 03, 2008, 01:03:54 PM
Francis Marion brought up a good point that the military has an array of weapons to back up the M16 while the civilian is limited to whatever he carries. You will never get a consesus on what is the best rifle. There are way too many shooters emotionally tied to their favorite.

VAshooter

Understood, it is a very subjective topic.

Will it be effective, and will it accomplish the objective, are very high on my list of concerns about which rifle/round to employ.

Quote from: Grin Reaper on January 03, 2008, 12:51:48 PM
I'm assuming you live in a state that doesn't fear the Evil Black Rifle.

I'm in New Hampshire, recently arrived from CT.

That's one of the main reasons that prompted my move.

Quote from: VAshooter on January 03, 2008, 01:03:54 PM
A good rack grade AR will probably edge out a good rack grade M1 but it would be very close.

Respectfully disagree. In my experience, it's a rare rack-grade AR that won't shoot under 2MOA. Actually, it's not at all uncommon for rack grade ARs to get darn close to one true MOA, even with generic "white box" ammo. You generally have to do some work on an M1 to get them under 2 MOA.

I'm not an AR guy. 

I love my M1A, but...

After buying one for my kids, watching my son put it through it's paces at an AS with no malfs (this was my main concern other than the mousegun argument), watching my daughter get on target with it, watching my HP buddies compete with them, and shooting one myself I'm slowly coming around.

[blasphemy] I may even buy one for myself. :o (I'll probably get a Garand first, though. ;D)

My first choice will always be a .30 caliber.  A life or death situation has different targets than a bulls eye, an AQT or a pop up target.  Real targets hide behind things and shoot back.  I know the value of a round that goes through more cover (making it not cover, but concealment).

Having said that, I'd still rather be working with someone that can hit what they need to with an AR15 than missing it with an M1A.  That's the point of rifle marksmanship isn't it - hitting the intended target in the best possible spot?  If you can hit it with the 5.56 why miss it with the 7.62. 

As for all the modular stuff?  Do you need all the lights, lasers, optical sights, pistol grips, CQB slings, etc. to hit the target?  Okay you guys that have seen my little toy keep your mouths shut.  I can prove it hits just fine without most of the little toys, the scope I need, the rest are just "modular" accessories.

Probably the best advice given on this thread so far is get the 22, go to an Appleseed and see if you can find some folks to let you shoot a few rounds through the AR, M1, M1A, FAL, etc. rifles and then decide what you can afford and what works for you. 

As my brother said a couple of years ago (and it seemed to tickle Fred's patriot patch at the time), "Why do I need a rifle?  I'm gonna shoot one of them with my shotgun and take his rifle and ammo if they come up here in the woods where I live."

Quote from: M1A4ME on January 03, 2008, 02:50:04 PM

As for all the modular stuff?  Do you need all the lights, lasers, optical sights, pistol grips, CQB slings, etc. to hit the target?  Okay you guys that have seen my little toy keep your mouths shut.  I can prove it hits just fine without most of the little toys, the scope I need, the rest are just "modular" accessories.

Probably the best advice given on this thread so far is get the 22, go to an Appleseed and see if you can find some folks to let you shoot a few rounds through the AR, M1, M1A, FAL, etc. rifles and then decide what you can afford and what works for you. 

Really M1A4ME, now, I'm known to some folks as "an AR guy", but that was mostly because I knew a fair amount about them (having used an M16A1 and later, M16A2 as part of making my living, I'd better know). I do own an AR, a "plain jane" as issued M16A2 style AR. 20" barrel, no bells and whistles (or kitchen sink, flashing lights, etc).

EJ, there will be AR's at the WRJ show as well. The way things are sounding you may want to leave the wallet and credit cards at home (then again, you may want to bring them). There will be at least one table there selling AR's, and he has good deals for quality rifles. The AR is an acceptable (and fully functional) rifle to use to defend Liberty and the USA.

If your heart is set on an M1, as I said before, do it sooner, rather than later. I made the mistake of waiting to buy stuff to find it gone. The M1 will be still available after CMP quits selling them, but prices will go up, not down, and M1's from other than CMP run close or over $1000 right now.

If you haven't met CMP's competition/training/veteran requirement (need to be in one of their categories in that area), attendance at an Appleseed meets that requirement. If you don't have a rifle before the Appleseed, I can say with complete certainty that a rifle can be there for you, and it will likely be an LTR (or close to one).

Regarding the M1 Garand- I would agree that the CMP option is your best bet.  There are other sources, including private sales.  Southern Ohio Gun, for example, has Garands for $695 http://www.southernohiogun.com/new.htm.  They say the are in "good condition"- I am not sure if that equates to rack grade, or field grade, or something else.

Quote from: M1A4ME on January 03, 2008, 02:50:04 PM
My first choice will always be a .30 caliber.  A life or death situation has different targets than a bulls eye, an AQT or a pop up target.  Real targets hide behind things and shoot back.  I know the value of a round that goes through more cover (making it not cover, but concealment).

Having said that, I'd still rather be working with someone that can hit what they need to with an AR15 than missing it with an M1A.  That's the point of rifle marksmanship isn't it - hitting the intended target in the best possible spot?  If you can hit it with the 5.56 why miss it with the 7.62. 

As for all the modular stuff?  Do you need all the lights, lasers, optical sights, pistol grips, CQB slings, etc. to hit the target?  Okay you guys that have seen my little toy keep your mouths shut.  I can prove it hits just fine without most of the little toys, the scope I need, the rest are just "modular" accessories.

Probably the best advice given on this thread so far is get the 22, go to an Appleseed and see if you can find some folks to let you shoot a few rounds through the AR, M1, M1A, FAL, etc. rifles and then decide what you can afford and what works for you. 

As my brother said a couple of years ago (and it seemed to tickle Fred's patriot patch at the time), "Why do I need a rifle?  I'm gonna shoot one of them with my shotgun and take his rifle and ammo if they come up here in the woods where I live."

One thing that you aren't considering, or at least not mentioning, is the role of a weapon at less than 100 yards.  The m1 platform was designed as a battle rifle.  It was ment to put shots on target at ranges of 100-500 yards and in many cases beyond, and did so very well.  THe  M16/AR15 platform was designed to engage targets from point blank out to 300-500 meters depending on who you talk to.  It was/is a defensive weapon.  One reason I advocate the AR is that it is a lot easier to use inside 100 yards than the M1.  I would like to see someone run a carbine course with a fullsize M1/M1A and then with an AR to see which they prefer.  Thats why I think it is more versital.  I can take the same 16" AR15 to a carbine course that I would take to an Appleseed and do well at both.  I'm not sure I can do the same with a Garand. 

What I'm saying is there is a difference between a battle rifle and a carbine.  If you can only have one or the other, which is true for ALOT of people, you have to deside what is best for you.  For me if it is only one or the other its an AR all the way.  That being said I'm in the process of "Get both".  ;D

Quote from: EJ on January 03, 2008, 11:50:32 AM

Affirmative; I currently only own a single handgun.


Learning proper marksmanship is the main reason I am here. I hope to make the most of my experience and learn as much as I can.


I'm not particularly attached to getting an M1; it just happens to be the most cost effective solution for a "real" MBR, for me at this time.

I hope to have several rifles eventually; an LTR and an MBR just happen to be at the top of the list.

This subject is very interesting to me.  It is a subject that cannot end with a single summarized statement.

I mostly agree with the observations by M1A4ME when considering a BFR.

Now back to the subject at hand.  You instructors correct me if I am wrong or out of line, but my view of "The Apple Seed Project" is that it is an educational project.  First to educate Americans in the safe and proficient use of firearms, an education that changes them from simply "American's" to "American Riflemen". Second to educate them to the facts that made this country free.  The facts about the American revolution that made us an independent nation and "Americans" rather than "British subjects" and that gave us our U.S. constitution and the 2nd and other amendments and the bill or rights.

If enough people are thus educated the only occasion that will ever require a civilian American citizen to use a BFR in anger will be because of a foreign invasion or defense from criminal activity where lethal use of force would be justified.

As you have limited experience with rifles, I have a couple of suggestions.  First is, regardless of whether you go center fire of 22 RF, learn what is the good stuff and what is "Junk".  There is too much of both to list here and besides, others will not completely agree with me as to what is "Junk" and what is "Good Stuff".

Next decide what you expect in performance from your rifle.  I recently had some work done on my Winchester M52B by a gunsmith that builds world class custom rimfire rifles.  He says that he will not ship a rifle to a customer that will not shoot groups small enough at 50 yards to prevent you from passing the case head of a 22 LR cartridge through the hole made by the group.  This cost money. About $3,500 dollars for a single shot 22 rimfire.

Consider reliability, durability, and cost.

For a general purpose rimfire I recommend the Ruger 10/22 in 22 LR.  It's not perfect but satisfies a lot of requirements.  It comes in several configurations and calibers (the 22 LR, 17 caliber rimfire models and the 22 magnum model) and two grades. The most popular is the standard grade in either blued or stainless and several configurations, i.e. Wood stock plastic stock and the deluxe with a nice walnut wood stock.

Then there is the 10/22 T (target model) which has accuracy enhancements of a better trigger pull and a target grade heavy barrel.

I have both the standard grade and a Target model.  Either is capable of perfect scores on the Appleseed AQT with its preferred ammunition if the shooter is up to it.  (I wish I were).  I proved this to myself by shooting several perfect AQT scores from a bench rest position. (Sorry Fred, I know that a true rifleman never shoots from the bench, but I just had to know).

So how does the two compare accuracy wise?  On an average the standard averages 3" with its preferred ammunition for 10 shots at 100 yards and no wind.  The Target model about 1 ½" under the same conditions.

I suggest you get Fred's guide to decide on a centerfire. http://www.fredsm14stocks.com/rifles.asp

The guide is chuck full of "The Right Stuff".  When I added centerfire It was with the M1 Garrand.  I eventually traded it for M1A.  Why? I just wanted one and could not afford both at the time.

We would love to have you come to our spring appleseed shoot at Henry County Gun Club at Puryear, Tennessee April 5th. And 6th 2008. http://www.hcgc.net . You don't even have to bring a rifle.

Hope this helps.


Good luck

Heh, "Get both" is the semi-official motto of Arfcom.

EJ, you've been given a lot of good advice here, but a lot of it is disjointed and anyone, even an expert, could be forgiven for being confused at this point.

My suggestion is to relax, take a deep breath, and order "Boston"s Gun Bible" from www.fredsm14stocks.com (http://www.fredsm14stocks.com) along with a shooting jacket and an instructor's kit.  You'll find all the stuff from Fred useful, but the "Bible" will give you the lowdown on just about every rifle you might be thinking about.  And a lot more besides.  I doubt there is a veteran poster on this board who has not read the "Bible" and agrees with most of it, at least.  

You will not find a better, more coherent source of info, and I daresay most of the posters in this thread will agree with my suggestion.

NOT trying to brush you off.  You nead some basic learning, and the internet is NOT the place to do such.  Too many opinions from well-meaning people who don't know you.

Buy the book, read it carefully, and you will be better informed that 90% of gunowners.  Then you can proceed confident that you are informed.  Meantime, don't be a stranger.

Quote from: raf on January 03, 2008, 06:24:45 PM
Heh, "Get both" is the semi-official motto of Arfcom.

EJ, you've been given a lot of good advice here, but a lot of it is disjointed and anyone, even an expert, could be forgiven for being confused at this point.

My suggestion is to relax, take a deep breath, and order "Boston"s Gun Bible" from www.fredsm14stocks.com (http://www.fredsm14stocks.com) along with a shooting jacket and an instructor's kit.  You'll find all the stuff from Fred useful, but the "Bible" will give you the lowdown on just about every rifle you might be thinking about.  And a lot more besides.  I doubt there is a veteran poster on this board who has not read the "Bible" and agrees with most of it, at least.  

You will not find a better, more coherent source of info, and I daresay most of the posters in this thread will agree with my suggestion.

Buy the book, read it carefully, and you will be better informed that 90% of gunowners.  Then you can proceed confident that you are informed.  Meantime, don't be a stranger.

Yeah... what he said. ;D

Quote from: raf on January 03, 2008, 06:24:45 PM
My suggestion is to.. ..order "Boston"s Gun Bible"..

LOL. That was the suggestion of a friend who first informed me of P.A.  ;)

I have been trying to get a group buy together as it would net a 40% discount off retail.

I'll get one asap if that doesn't pan out.

Thanks again all; very much appreciated.  8)

Quote from: raf on January 03, 2008, 06:24:45 PM
Heh, "Get both" is the semi-official motto of Arfcom.

EJ, you've been given a lot of good advice here, but a lot of it is disjointed and anyone, even an expert, could be forgiven for being confused at this point.

My suggestion is to relax, take a deep breath, and order "Boston"s Gun Bible" from www.fredsm14stocks.com (http://www.fredsm14stocks.com) along with a shooting jacket and an instructor's kit.  You'll find all the stuff from Fred useful, but the "Bible" will give you the lowdown on just about every rifle you might be thinking about.  And a lot more besides.  I doubt there is a veteran poster on this board who has not read the "Bible" and agrees with most of it, at least.  

You will not find a better, more coherent source of info, and I daresay most of the posters in this thread will agree with my suggestion.

NOT trying to brush you off.  You nead some basic learning, and the internet is NOT the place to do such.  Too many opinions from well-meaning people who don't know you.

Buy the book, read it carefully, and you will be better informed that 90% of gunowners.  Then you can proceed confident that you are informed.  Meantime, don't be a stranger.

You ask too much........... How on earth could EJ RELAX when he so fired up about the Appleseed Project?   ;D ;D ;D

Quote from: EJ on January 03, 2008, 08:00:51 PM

Quote from: raf on January 03, 2008, 06:24:45 PM
My suggestion is to.. ..order "Boston"s Gun Bible"..

LOL. That was the suggestion of a friend who first informed me of P.A.  ;)

I have been trying to get a group buy together as it would net a 40% discount off retail.

I'll get one asap if that doesn't pan out.

Thanks again all; very much appreciated.  8)

Check Fred's website for price comparison (just checked, he's $20). http://www.fredsm14stocks.com/catalog/books.asp (http://www.fredsm14stocks.com/catalog/books.asp)

If you need to, you can borrow my copy of Boston's. It's worn and raggedy, but still readable.

And, as I said, I've got at least one copy of most of the rifles mentioned in it that are practical and affordable (except an HK, and I know of a guy over your way that's got one of those). Matter of fact, you come over to the Proctor Appleseed in April, and I can make sure you get a chance to TRY them.

Look, to be quite honest, the only way to know is to shoot one of each, or maybe even two of each.

If you can try some rifles out, do so.  You never know, maybe what you really are is an Enfield Man under all that semi auto exterior.

Let's have no more of the 5.56/7.62/AR/AK/M1/A discussion.  It has been done 500 billion times out there in the net, and will go no where quick.

Go shooting with Nickle, and then get your rifle.

Remeber, net oppinions are only worth what you pay for them, but they can offer insight.

I'll second the BGB. Best $20 I have ever spent. Seriously.

Maybe "Read Boston's Gun Bible" should be our official answer to the 'Which rifle...'-type questions.   ;)

QuoteYou nead some basic learning, and the internet is NOT the place to do such.  Too many opinions from well-meaning people who don't know you.

raf, your genius is subtle, but it's still genius.

Quote from: Nickle on January 02, 2008, 10:34:39 AM

Quote from: The Guy on January 02, 2008, 01:09:26 AM

Plus, a 6 month or more wait won't change the CMP price that much.

No, it won't change the price much, but it may change availability from CMP. They've been planning on getting out of the Surplus Rifle end of it this year, if they can (before the political climate changes). Not many folks know that, but it is out there. And, they're running low on M1's, have run OUT in fact a couple of times in the past few years.

Folks, the inside info is that EJ is planning on really biting the bullet, so to say, and getting both an LTR and an M1 (assuming he likes the M1).

This makes up my mind for me.  The Govt says it wants to give some of my money back to me this year to help stimulate the economy.  Guess I know where it's going to go.

Not or..... AND