I'm looking for opinions on a scope for a Springfield M1A.
Boston's Gun Bible recommends a Burris 3-9x40 with ballistic plex.
I can get this with a set of binoculars for $200 on sale and wanted opinions about the this scope as well as what others have been happy with.
I already have a Nikon Monarch 3-9x40 and a Bushnell 4200 3-9x40 I could use, but BGB seems so set on the ballistic plex of the Burris? ???
TNX,
I'm particularly fond of Weaver scopes myself, with Bushnell/Bausch & Lomb a close second.
Nikon, Burris and Bushnell are all good choices. Any one of the 3 would serve you well. 3X9 is about all you'll want on an M1A, but you could go higher, as long as you use common sense in use.
So, it all boils down to which reticle you prefer. YOU have to make that choice, as the choices are varied, and not many of them are bad.
The Ballistic Plex looks good, until you dig some. Pay close attention to what I made
BOLD.
QuoteFactory Calibration
Burris Ballistic Plex scopes are of the American-standard non-magnifying reticle
design. As you change the magnification, the reticle remains constant in size as
the image changes in size. Therefore, the reticle's size in relation to the image
size (reticle subtension) changes, so the amount of trajectory compensation
changes as the magnification changes. This necessitates that the scope be set
at a specific magnification to be correctly calibrated for trajectory compensation.
By design, and with simplicity in mind, the original 3X-9X Fullfield II scopes
are calibrated at 9X -- the highest magnification for the scope. On subsequent
scopes with higher magnification, Burris may elect to calibrate a higher magnification
scope at an intermediate magnification by installing a calibration dot on
the power ring.
That's direct from Burris. http://www.burrisoptics.com/pdf/BALLPLEX.pdf (http://www.burrisoptics.com/pdf/BALLPLEX.pdf)
Fred mentions the Sheperd scopes in the Guide. Anyone have any experience with them?
Quote from: LabRat on December 27, 2007, 04:56:07 PM
Fred mentions the Sheperd scopes in the Guide. Anyone have any experience with them?
I have no experience with them but Gun Tests gave them two thumbs up. I'd like to hear more myself as I am shopping for something for my M1A as well...
I wasn't aware Fred wrote BGB, but that's good to know.
The author (Fred) says if you'll send him $20 he'll tell you the magic of the ballistic plex at the different magnifications. I'd be game. Chime in here Fred....
I've never used a Shepard scope,but have read about them. As I recall they have reticles located in both places, objective end and occular end. This solves the problems associated with both, the cross hairs don't enlarge with magnification, but the circles do so you solve the magnification/trajectory problem and also the problem with the cross hairs geting so large you can't see the target.
I've got 2 of the 3x9s and a 6.5 - 24.
Nickle's right about the calibration, but I don't think it is really a problem.
First, I pretty much leave the magnification set to 9, so the calibration is right on. The only time I use something less is with a 22lr at close range. This scope isn't real good for that anyway - it has focus trouble down at 25m.
However, "calibration" is a loose term. It is calibrated for a specific cartridge/load. Use something else, and the calibration is off anyway. That's why I do my own calibration - go shoot the thing and see where specific yardage drop matches the line on the reticle. I use the 3x9 on 22lr, 223, 308, and 30-06. They are all different. I tape the results on the side of the rifle.
This might help with your decision - do you want a hunting rig or a sniping/target rig? Here's the distinction to me: A hunting rig is set so you can make quick targeting decisions, trading a little bit of accuracy, while a sniping/target rig is all about accuracy, but you have to go slow(er). Yeah, I know a few guys myself that can range with mildots and configure a scope PDQ, but they usually have titles like Sargent, or Master Sargent, or Gunny in front of their names.
Critical to both set-ups is range estimating. With a hunting rig, you then do a "guess" as to what the hold over needs to be. The Bplex helps you do that quickly - it is really a hunting rig. With a target rig you do an MOA/Clicks calculation, adjust the scope and hold dead on.
Shepherd scopes are an attempt to solve both of these problems - ranging and targeting. I have recently purchased one and am studying it. They are also about 3 - 4 x the cash as the Burris 3x9 w/o a cool set of 'nocs.
Does any of this help with your decision? :o
The idea behind the BallisticPlex reticle is to use the reticle to hold-over and hit at ranges out to 500M.
First of all, what ranges are indicated by the reticle depends on a few factors, like: the ballistics of the ctg in use, your initial zeroing range, and the magnification are you using. You can juggle all three criteria, and most likely the scope will be useful.
For example, if you zero the scope at 200M, using milsurp ball, and at 6X mag, the max range on the scope is 500M.
Using a 169gn bullet might mean a different mag factor, and the max (and intermediate) distance(s) would be slightly different.
Boston goes into this exhaustively in his Whte Paper on these scopes. Search his name on this site and drop him $20.
The Burris is a good scope, with excellent warranty. The Shep is probably a little quicker to use, but much more expensive.
Quote from: Simballo on December 27, 2007, 05:22:04 PM
I wasn't aware Fred wrote BGB, but that's good to know.
The guide mentioned above is Fred's Guide to Becoming a Rifleman, not Boston's Gun Bible. Two different works, two different authors.
I like the scout scope myself.
I find if you get the ultramax mount that replaces the top cover, along with some ARMS low rings (QD), you get a forward mounted scope ( I like the Burris 2.75 IER myself) which does not need a 'chin weld' to shoot.
Nice.
Word to the wise: the ultramax only works on GI bbls, and offers a certain stiffing of the whole system as a bonus. I must warn you though. That extra weight on the front end shifts the center of gravity forward and adds a good amount of weight to the system.
Leaves the action accessable in case of malfunction, and (for my money) doesn't change the ergonomics of the rifle too much.
KA out
I have one of these scopes on a bolt gun.
The BDC is only good for 9 power, thus is next to useless for a "Rifleman" rifle.
At 9X, you see too much wobble and lack the confidence to squeeze the trigger, unless you are benched up or have a good rest.
4 power is plenty for a slung up rifle for out to 600-700 yards.
Good luck on your purchase
Hmmmm.....where does one start?
A quick stab:
1. Ballistic reticles are the wave of the future, but are in their infancy now and lots of sorting out remains to be done.
2. On most "battle rifles" a forward mounted ("scout" ) optic is a better choice, IMHO. Such are best with ballistic reticles, but that is even further behind the development cycle. The 3-9 traditional will work, though.
3. 9X is not too much for a solid hold. just something to work through and understand as your skills improve.
4. Burris is OK, but others have moved the ball forward. The BGB reference is now a couple of years old.
5. For variables with BDC, a first focal plane scope is clearly the thinking man's answer.
6. In spite of #5, smart use of the BDC can make it more flexible with a second focal plane, as noted in Boston's White Paper (which I have).
7. Try the Nikon 4.5-14 scope with BDC for such rigs. Their little circles have some ranging capability.
8. Aside from the slight use in #7, most BDC rigs have NO ranging capabilities. The Horus solutions are the most elegant thus far, with a MOA scale and a mil grid, combined with mil knob adjustments.
I own or have carefully evaluated BDC scopes from Burris, Nikon, Pride Fowler, Horus, and Shepherd (the last three are FFP scopes). All have merits, all have shortcomings. The Burris is much more of a hunting scope. The Nikon just a bit more. The Shepherd adds some neat capabilities (ranging mainly). The Pride Fowler are the best for wind hold off points. The Horus gets into true precision and tactical applications and is more than you really want/need for an M14, IMHO. (Note that Zeiss is now introducing some "Rapid-Z Reticles" licensed from Pride Fowler, but putting them in second focal plane scopes, unlike the Pride Fowler line. They do have some Mil-like ranging potential, though.)
I say try the Burris as a proof of concept. The little binoculars are handy too. They are great packages, but likely won't be your final stop on the road. As noted, we are in the early stages of this. Options should keep getting better. I'm still waiting for a variable BDC forward mounted scope with lit reticle and FFP ranging.....
Enough for now. I've written a good bit more on a thread on the FSW forum for those who are registered there.
Quote from: funfaler4 power is plenty for a slung up rifle for out to 600-700 yards.
Good luck on your purchase
+1 funfaler.
I used to have a 4x33 Leupold FX-2 on my M1A Scout, mounted on an ARMS #18. The ARMS mount wobbled and came loose too often (even with locktite), so I took the whole setup off.
But for the 10-20 shots it would stay tight for, 4x is perfect.
Low power is the way to go, IMO. 4x, 3x, even lower. Get a nice fine reticle, get some turret adjustment knobs (I had Stoney Creek knobs that worked really well), learn your dope and you can drop a bullet into a gnat's puckerhole with it.
My LTR is a Marlin 795 with a 3-9x40 Swift up on top of the receiver, but I never move the magnification from 4x. It's just the perfect power for everything from 25 yards out to about 500 (even though my .22 work stays under 200). Dang thing is a laserbeam.
Quote from: Simballo on December 27, 2007, 03:30:49 PM
I'm looking for opinions on a scope for a Springfield M1A.
Boston's Gun Bible recommends a Burris 3-9x40 with ballistic plex.
I can get this with a set of binoculars for $200 on sale and wanted opinions about the this scope as well as what others have been happy with.
I already have a Nikon Monarch 3-9x40 and a Bushnell 4200 3-9x40 I could use, but BGB seems so set on the ballistic plex of the Burris? ???
TNX,
Nickel is on target with his comments about choice of scopes.
As for a scope on the M1-A, I purchased Springfield armory's mount for 129 bucks and installed it and dressed it with a Tasco Mildot 3 X 9. All went well until I started trying to use it. It is simply too high for me to use effectively. Cheek is too high over the stock. Of course I could build up the stock with some of those get your money gadgets or buy a custom stock, or do like I did, remove it and do the best I can with my ageing eyes and the original sights.
Consider what your primary use of your M1-A is. Is it a battle field rife, a sniper rifle, or a range rifle for Hi power matches? Then you can decide what equipment you need for or on it.
Good Luck
Simballo I don't have a lot of exsperence with scopes but I'm using a 4x18x44 mil dot BSA on P308 LR and I have to say for the price it dose good. It is zeroed at 300 and I use the 3rd mil dot for 500. 3 years and 2000 or so rounds and it is doing good. I leave it set at 7, the eyes do good at that setting for me from 200 out past 500. The thing I like is I can jump up to 18 to see my hits so it become a spotter or a way to get a close up look at what you are doing.
The down side is in low light, op is poor and when you turn it up to 18 you can just see a little blurring on the out side edge of the view.
I want to upgrade and I'm looked at the Shepherd also, I would like to look through one in low light to see how it dose. I have looked at the leupold and Zeiss 6x20x50 and they are good the glass is sharp and clear but they do cost. If you do go with the Shepherd give us some feed back.
Good luck
Well you all, I just set the scope on my M1A, one I took off my M1Garand. A cheap little Nikon Buckmaster 4x14 Mil-Dot. Worked well on the Garand but eye relief was awkward. Set nicely on M1A with good eye relief and quick target acquision. Haven't fired it yet, will soon. Still setting up loads for it. Used the see thru mounts to keep iron sights funtional. Later.
I'm looking at the MILLET tactical,it seems to have everything I want,except a 40mm tube...I may be able to live with that. Dillon has it in their catalog.Just need some dinero...moola....long green...... :D
I don't have a lot of "scope" experience with a lot of different scopes (sorry if that sounds funny).
My 4X12 on my M1A stays on 8 most of the time, up close to as far out as I shoot. That seems to fit me best.
The higher the power adjustment the more it seems to bounce (heartbeat), the smaller the field of view, and under low light conditions the less clear the image.
A scope tends to "rob" you of overall field of view since you are concentrating on the image in the scope.
A scope will only compensate for eye problems relating to focusing on the front sight, it will not cure any other marksmanship shortcomings.
Bragging about what you paid for a scope is a lot less fun than buying ammo, shooting it, and then bragging about how far off you could hit the target (good practice = good results = good bragging).
Yes, I have a scope on just about everything I shoot. I'm not sure what $75 in 1977 works out to in today's prices, I just know that Bushnell is still on my M1A and still working great after 30 years (I can't make myself pay more for a scope than I pay for my rifle, it just doesn't add up for me). To each his own, just make sure you feel good because you can hit what you need to hit, not because yours cost more than his.
We are all just wayfaring stragglers, searching for a better mousetrap..... :'(
My thoughts are to get some experience with an inexpensive scope, then figure our what YOU like
and try something else. we all have to keep the economy going, don't you know?? ;D
Put a scope on a .22 and blast away till you get proficient, remembering that the scope only helps
eye problems, it does not replace any of the other steps in firing a shot.
I'm looking at the Shepherd, but haven't got one yet. The newer 9" circles are calling to me..... :~
I use a Burris 2-7x32 Extended Eye Relief Burris Ballistic Plex on a UTG rail barrel cover for my M1a...I abolutely love it.
OK.....I give up! What skill set is involved with purchasing a scope? ;D
Please do not take this as a flame, it is most certainly not meant to be. @)
I do not think the skill set is in the purchasing a scope, rather I think it is in the seeking knowledge from those who have the skill sets of employment of a given scope or scopes
OK, Gotcha! O0