I'd like to get out of my SKS paratrooper (T6, modified bolt, tech sights) and get into a NATO round. I see that Bud's has a Doublestar for $669 and Century c91 sporters can be had for about the same price which is my budget. Any recommendations?
Better yet, M4geryor FAL G1 at Classic Arms for under $700. http://classicarms.us/
Ask yourself what you want it to do. Pure paper punching accuracy?
AR15 all the way.
A rifle in 7.62x51 that eats brass, but is reliable and is a pain to rack the action on the first time in a string of shots, but has incredibly cheap magazines? C91
A rifle that utilizes relatively cheap rock in mags in 7.62x51 that's much quicker to reload than a C91, and is accurate enough to do the jog?
FAL.
Just my opinion :)
This will be a primary SHTF rifle.
Take into account how handy of a package it is, how heavy it is, how easy target transitions (quick ones) are, how it balances, how heavy the mags and the ammo, along with ammo/parts/magazine availability as spares.
Lots of nifty rifles out there, but the AR15 is the most popular platform in the country.
Quote from: dart67eb on July 06, 2010, 01:10:20 PM
This will be a primary SHTF rifle.
I read 'reliable and rugged rifle that doesn't need much to keep it going'.
I hear 'FAL'. :)
Signed,
A FAL owner.
Do the FAL's take G3 mags?
No, they take FAL mags. Depending on the FAL you have, either metric mags or inch mags. I've seen quite a few inch recievers be able to use metric and inch mags, but metric receivers can only take metric mags.
Sounds like a good time for a FAL,
No I do not own one ,,,yet but its on my want list.
Note due to a few rifle's(?) that where put togather by century arms one a mas 49/56(.308) and a century arms cetme(rebuild by a good smith after century could not fix it them self's( I couldda had a REALLY good garand with that money)) :wb: ,,I tend to avoid century arms assemled stuff YMMV.
Wade
The HK I had years ago shiot well but the ergonmics are terrible and it tends to hit you in the face every time you sqeeze the trigger. The A/M centry + low buck numbers seem to have problems and sometimes made of mediocre matreials or workmanship. If you know someone who is a shooter that has had good luck with it recommend it then that would go a long way in my book.
Don't let cheap mags influence your purchase, a hand full of good mags in a good rifle is what you really want, IMHO.
Original post deleted. See mtmisfit & old dog's posts. Thanks guys! O0
Out of the two, I'd prefer the Doublestar. But, to be honest I'd assemble my own lower and purchase a completed upper to go with it.
If you're aiming for cheap, go with
Lower - $70 http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.aspx?item=F1STSLGEN1&groupid=53
parts kit - $55 http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.aspx?item=XBMLPK&groupid=53
CAR stock - $30 http://www.cdnninvestments.com/ar4pocostm4s1.html
upper - $479 http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.aspx?item=XSTU5035&groupid=55
---------------------
$634 for a Spikes Tactical rifle. AR's are pretty simple to assemble as long as you are halfway competent with hand tools. Use the money saved for a couple of mags.
Later,
Chrome...
Quote from: EEL on July 06, 2010, 02:48:30 PM
Metric FALs will accept EITHER metric or inch mags. It is the inch version that will accept ONLY inch mags.
EEL
EEL,
I believe that is backwards, the inch mags have a much wider locking lug brazed on them and won't fit in a metric receiver.
Inch pattern receivers Will accept both inch & metric mags, metric receivers only take metric mags.
I have a metric receiver.
FAL info http://hoplizo.com/metric-vs-inch/
FALs are nice. I'd take it over the H&K's or H&K copies. It fits me so much better. The FAL is comfortable to shoot, the other is not.
How much money do you have to spend on ammo for training or other uses? With an M4/AR15 type rifle you can get the .22 conversion kit and practice at short ranges cheap and also use for small game hunting if you find the ammo it likes.
Where I live I'll never take a shot past 100 yds. Its flat and there are lots of trees/woods. Do I need more range? I don't think so. Not for around here.
Quote from: mtmisfit on July 06, 2010, 06:54:15 PM
Quote from: EEL on July 06, 2010, 02:48:30 PM
Metric FALs will accept EITHER metric or inch mags. It is the inch version that will accept ONLY inch mags.
EEL
EEL,
I believe that is backwards, the inch mags have a much wider locking lug brazed on them and won't fit in a metric receiver.
Inch pattern receivers Will accept both inch & metric mags, metric receivers only take metric mags.
I have a metric receiver.
Roger that.
In addition, I'll give my personal opinions on the above topic, not to start a duffus flame regarding rifles.
First, and foremost, any rifle you choose, learn it, master it.
Some rifles are better than others in certain categories IMHO.
Given the above topic of rifles, AR15, FAL and basically, HK91 clone.
My advice as an owner of all three:
The AR15 will dance circles around the FAL and HK91 regarding accuracy.
All three are terriffic rifles.
There's no quick windage adjustment for the FAL or the HK91, where the AR15 will stand true.
Given the first posters concerns, if I had to pick amongst the the three rifles, present day, it'd be a AR15 w/ 20" barrel, chrome lined, iron sights in front, detachable carrying handle in the rear, fixed stock, not collapsible. Using 20 round reliable mags. Plan on cleaning this instrument after 400 rounds if using clean ammo to prevent jams.
Given rifle is good to 400 yards with clean, milsurp ammo, not match ammo. With match ammo and some hearty practice, maybe 600 yards, that's an big IF for puttin' zombies down past 400yds IMHO.
FAL and HK91(clone) chambers a round that'll do it past 400yds easily, but the irons on these rifles were not made for American Rifleman work. The iron sights on the FAL and the HK91, pretty much suck for Rifleman work. No windage adjustment with irons, very cantankerous to mount a scope and costly as well. I know. Expensive.
Whereas, the AR15, with a detachable carrying handle, you can mount just about anything for just about any price. If it fails, you still got that carrying handle with iron sights that will adjust elevation and windage very quickly if you know how to use them.
For absolute reliablity, the FAL and HK91 will far surpass the AR15. But think about who you are and your ability to know when your rifle needs some cleaning. You were not raised in a 3rd World country right?
We here at Appleseed are Riflemen and those that are willing to achieve Riflemen status.
Being Rifleman, in part, means you can hit your target at a quarter mile, easily with iron sights and milsurp ammo.
My experience as an AS Instructor for more than 30 weekend event shoots, the AR15 is the queen, compared to the FAL or HK91, regarding accuracy.
Experience, has shown me that the M1A and the M1 Garand are the kings regarding accuracy, and the PUNCH through wind, whereby the AR15 suffers WIND.
I've never seen a shooter attending an AS event shoot Rifleman with a FAL, HK91 or AK47 variant.
All in all, given the topic at hand, my personal opinion, a good AR15 is the way to go.
Hope this helps in your decision.
Brett out.
Addendum, the G3/Cetme , although chambered in 7.62/308, were designed to use ammo that has a faster burning rate. If you go with one you'll have to find milsurp ammo that was loaded for use in an HK, which means Portugese, W. German, that type of thing. Things not too good have been known to happen with other types of milsurp reloaded ammo with a slow burning powder. M1A's limit the amount of gas into the system and FAL's have an adjustable gas regulater.
You might as well have just asked "revolver or autoloader?"
My advice -
Get what's comfortable for you and what you like to shoot.
Borrow a few from your fellow AS Instructor Corps, try 'em out, and get the one you want!
Quote from: slim on July 07, 2010, 09:36:35 PM
You might as well have just asked "revolver or autoloader?"
My advice -
Get what's comfortable for you and what you like to shoot.
Borrow a few from your fellow AS Instructor Corps, try 'em out, and get the one you want!
I didn't mean to start a mess. I figured that at least you 'seeders knew which end of the rifle the bullet came out of unlike some free advice you get these days. Anyway, I appreciate the comments. I'm leaning towards the AR. I'm familiar with the system from my days in the army, I don't see having to take more than a 300 yd shot, lots of pieces and parts out there. But... That .30 cal power is not to be taken lightly. I'm going to try out a FAL/G3 first, though.
Quote from: dart67eb on July 07, 2010, 10:12:22 PMThat .30 cal power is not to be taken lightly.
Nor is your skill as a Rilfeman. The more and more I go on, the more and more I'm thinking my MBR is going to be my LTR!
Quote from: dart67eb on July 07, 2010, 10:12:22 PMI'm going to try out a FAL/G3 first, though.
That's the spirit!
I've had invitations to shoot someone's rifle at every single event I've been to. I highly encourage you to PM the other Instructors on the schedule before you go to an event and just say something like, "hey guys, I'm trying to decide what to buy. Anyone have a FAL I could shoot a few rounds out of?" Believe it or not... you'll have some willing volunteers! Heck, you may even get free ammo!
Quote from: slim on July 07, 2010, 10:28:46 PM
Quote from: dart67eb on July 07, 2010, 10:12:22 PMThat .30 cal power is not to be taken lightly.
Nor is your skill as a Rilfeman. The more and more I go on, the more and more I'm thinking my MBR is going to be my LTR!
Quote from: dart67eb on July 07, 2010, 10:12:22 PMI'm going to try out a FAL/G3 first, though.
That's the spirit!
I've had invitations to shoot someone's rifle at every single event I've been to. I highly encourage you to PM the other Instructors on the schedule before you go to an event and just say something like, "hey guys, I'm trying to decide what to buy. Anyone have a FAL I could shoot a few rounds out of?" Believe it or not... you'll have some willing volunteers! Heck, you may even get free ammo!
I know just the guy in MO to ask when he comes to AR.
Quote from: dart67eb on July 07, 2010, 10:52:29 PM
I know just the guy in MO to ask when he comes to AR.
I wouldn't trust that guy. Just ask Slim!
I have both. Overall my AR is the better rifle of the two. Then again it cost more.
I picked up the 91 because I didn't have a 30 cal semi and the price seemed to be right at the time. A few observations:
1. The stock trigger on the C91 is like a brick.
2. The Century stock does not have a rear swivel stud.
3. The front sight is welded in place and not elevation adjustable as on a true G3.
4. Mine has the rear drum sight. The fine click adjustments on this one are difficult to get to a true battle zero as the inner detentes are frozen.
Other things to think about on the 91 is the head space on the bolt. The G3 platform is famous for creep. You can check this with a feeler gauge fairly easy.
This isn't to say I dislike my 91, but it does need some work to bring it up to a Rifleman's standard. I haven't yet decided whether to do the work or sell/trade it for something else. That decision will be based on time, money, and opportunity.
Quote from: MisterAnderson on July 07, 2010, 11:06:53 PM
Quote from: dart67eb on July 07, 2010, 10:52:29 PM
I know just the guy in MO to ask when he comes to AR.
I wouldn't trust that guy. Just ask Slim!
I thought, surely, he knows someone else in MO. He can't be referring to that guy!
I like my CMP Garand more & more every time I send steel downrange.
I no longer own am AR15. My last was a Colt HBAR Target Model. It was a damn fine coyote killer, but lacked ooomph downrange. I traded it for a horse.
My DPMS .308 has just been sold.
When I get my full instructor payraise I'd love a Smith or LRB M-14.
Till then the old beast is King.
Guy
You'd be surprised how many folks shoot both the M1A and the M1 Garand and then realize they prefer the Garand. There's a thread going on about it right now on arfcom. My M1A has not been fired since the summer of 2007. "The M1 does my talking for me". or something like that, its a neat looking old poster.
Quote from: Old Dog on July 12, 2010, 02:52:53 AM
You'd be surprised how many folks shoot both the M1A and the M1 Garand and then realize they prefer the Garand.
Yup, and I'm one of them.
I have seen many things used at Appleseeds. IIRC, I have seen a FAL shoot a Rifleman score, but, it's been a while (would've been 3 years ago).
Those Century HK clones leave some to be desired, IMNSHO. A real HK 91 might get the job done, but I wouldn't put bets on the Century. I have seen (and I have in my possession) many good things come from them, so not everything is bad.
FWIW, it's a receiver quality and barrel timing issue, generally. Same with their FAL's. The Imbel receiver stuff they had (I had one) was really good. The Hesse or Coonan (DCI) stuff was pretty bad. Barrel timing among other things.
Quote from: Old Dog on July 12, 2010, 02:52:53 AM
You'd be surprised how many folks shoot both the M1A and the M1 Garand and then realize they prefer the Garand. There's a thread going on about it right now on arfcom. My M1A has not been fired since the summer of 2007. "The M1 does my talking for me". or something like that, its a neat looking old poster.
I prefer the M1 as well. I think you should go with either an M1 from CMP, or an AR. The AR is nice, they are very accurate, have low recoil, and with the .22 insert, make training very inexpensive. You could upgrade to a more powerful round (6.8 or 6.5) later as funds allow.
If you have good eyes, and can handle the recoil, I think the M1 is a better choice, due to the power, sights, reliability, and ease of maintence. I would get a rack grade. The rack grade I have shoots within 4 MOA (albeit I had to clean up the muzzle first), and then get a 7.62 Nato barrel then the .30-06 barrel won't hold 4 MOA.
Quote from: CaptG on July 11, 2010, 11:59:21 PM
My DPMS .308 is for sale.
I was about to post that the logical combination is an AR10-style .308 AR.
I bought my DPMS LR308 for less than $1000 and am very fond of it. MBR power + accuracy and reliability.
I love my M1s but my ARs shoot circles around them when it comes to accuracy.
So, given the logic, why is your DPMS for sale?
(BTW, a comparison of these various rifles is done in great detail in Boston T. Party's "Boston's Gun Bible)
Mine is the AP-4 (16" barrel). With military ammo it's not any more accurate than my service grade Garand. (Commercial ammo is another story, it's very accurate with it) Add in the cost of mags and the lack of parts compatibility among different makers of AR-10 types plus having to stock another type of ammo, and I'd just as soon sell the AR & pick up another Garand. If I had tons of money, I'd like to have an LRB or Smith M-14, but that would get me back to the ammo issue. Plus every time I get close to convincing my self to take the plunge and get an M-14/M1a, I tell myself for the same $ I could get 3 more Garands or 1 Garand & a BUNCH of ammo.
If anyone's interested in the DPMS, PM me for details.
Guy
Something most folks never realize is the difference in quality/accuracy between military 5.56 NATO, 7.62 NATO and .30-06 ammo.
I've seen little real decent 7.62 NATO ammo out there, though some countries are better than others, and the US is far from the best. 7.62 M80 Ball is at best 6-8 MOA ammo (the bullet itself is the culprit, usually).
USGI .30-06 on the other hand, is much better, most of it should be at or under 4 MOA.
5.56 is almost always decent stuff.
I second Nickle on the surplus ammo.
I have had good luck with 7.62 NATO from Germany and Lithuania. Other countries not so much.
The Lake City .30-06 that I use in my Garand is superb by military/semiauto standards. Loading my own 168gr MatchKing shows very little improvement but I shoot as-issued Garands.
5.56 from LC is good and generally available.
I mostly load my own but have shot a few cases of the above and been happy.
.308 ARs aren't THAT much more accurate than an M1 with a good barrel. My old DPMS LR-308 with 20" barrel shot 1 MOA from prone unsupported with surplus ammo. My Service Grade M1 (with the bore and throat both at less than 2) will shoot 1.5 MOA or so with HXP. Its not enough difference to quibble over if you ask me. The M1 weighed less than the DPMS, too.
My M1A Standard model is just as accurate as the DPMS was, and it is a lot lighter. It is also more reliable -- less malfunctions, and easier to clear when it does. You can go a lot longer between cleaning on it, too.
My M1A would shoot around 1 MOA with British Radway Green... I just bought a case of Portugese 7.62, and we'll see if it is as accurate. So far, I've only shot a few squares at 25m with it (at the Eureka, KS RBC), and I was doing right around 3-4 MOA. We'll try it at 100 yards with the ACOG and see how it does.
One difference between the M1A and the M1 is that it is easier to mount an optic over the receiver on an M1A. If you do this on an M1, it has to be offset like on the M1 C and D... it is difficult and expensive to mount a scope this way. I wanted to put an ACOG on my rifle, so the M1 was out.
If you want to keep it iron sighted, there is not really any appreciable difference in capability between the M1 and the M14. The M14 has a slight edge in a few categories, but not much.
It used to be that the M1 was cheaper to feed, with CMP ammo, but now the tables have turned... HXP .30 '06 now costs $.50 per round, and you can find 7.62x51 for $.35 cents per round.
My solution to this question has been to buy one or two of each.
So far, I've owned the following Battle Rifles/Battle Carbines:
AR15 (Carbine & 20")
Arsenal AK in 7.62x39
Yugo SKS
AR10 (20")
PTR-91 (quality HK91 clone) (16")
FAL (Imbel kit on a DSA rec'vr, 18")
FAL (STG kit on a Coonan rec'vr, 21")
LRB M14SA
Springfield 6 million-serial M1 Garand
Of all these rifles, I have only gotten rid of three:
Arsenal AK (SLR-95): This carbine was worth a lot more to someone else than it was to me...bought for $320, Sold for over $900.
AR10 (20"): Love the ergonomics, rifle was unreliable. Sent it back to Armalite and it had a shallow chamber and partially drilled gas port. They fixed it, but I never trusted it after that.
PTR-91 (16"): This rifle kicked like a mule and had iron sights that are a nightmare to adjust. It always ran perfect but was heavy and had too much recoil. Might buy an 18" PTR-91 but probably not.
My favorite battle rifle is, of course, the LRB M14SA. It shoots like a dream, is reliable, and just feels great on the shoulder. It has the best sights and the best operating rod system. Of course it cost me about $2100 slightly used. Excellent mags are $20.
My second favorite battle rifle is the FAL. Get a good one...not a piece of CENTURY junk. Get metric...they have more parts available than anything else. Get an 18" to 21" barrel. You should be able to get a nice one off gunbroker for $800 to $900. Excellent mags are $20.
As other suggested, ask some of your fellow instructors to let you try one of their rifles. I've always got my LRB M14SA and atleast one FAL at every Appleseed, in case I get a chance to shoot after the students leave.
Nothing wrong with AR15 poodle shooters...except that they're poodle shooters. Real rifles start at 6.5mm.
-David
Edgewood, NM
My rifle of choice is definitely the AR. My favorite one is a Rock River mid-length 16" build that shoots less than 1moa with my hunting hand loads. It is a little on the heavy side for a calling rifle but I use it anyway. I have taken coyotes at 400 yards on several occasions. I have used it in tactical rifle competitions 500 yards where everyone else was shooting bolt guns from a bi-pod but me and placed 3rd out of 15 or so. I have used it in carbine classes where we fired close to 1000 rounds of Wolf or Tula steel cased in a weekend, no problems. Reliability issues none, gone almost 2000 rounds before cleaning and it was still going like a champ, I just could not take it anymore and had to clean it. I built it for less than $1000 have a $200 1-4x scope on it or a $80 red dot for carbine classes and matches. Over 10,000 rounds through it of all kinds Wolf, Tula, hand loads and surplus.
I have also had a AR10, mine was not reliable at all accurate but not reliable. Mags were expensive and did I mention not reliable. I had several different people look at it and they said it should run but it would not run no matter what kind of expensive mags I tried. My brother in-law had one too that sufferd from the same issue. Sold to never have another again.
I have thought of getting a PTR91 more than once but never took the plunge, looks very interesting though. The reports of hard on brass have kept me away mostly.
I also had a FN AR which is a .308 built on the BAR action. Very good rifle shot very well stone cold reliable. Bad part was no iron sights available, destroyed brass for some reason very strong ejection messing up the head of the brass. Mags were crazy expensive and still are. Virtually zero ability to get spare parts unless from FNH. Accessories were and are nonexistent. Rifle traded.
I picked up a M1 from the CMP I actually got a special grade which is like brand new, barrel gauges 0 throat and less than.5 muzzle. Great beautiful rifle that shoots better than I ever thought one could. To go shoot it is now my favorite rifle over my AR. But to work with meaning take classes, hunt, shoot in a match besides where a special class for M1s my AR is the rifle I pick up.
Maybe an M1a is in my future someday but not in the near future.
I think the AR is so easy to get parts for and you can virtually build whatever you want is the main benefit of the rifle. Sure people don't like the .223 round but for what I use a rifle for it is plenty enough. For shooting paper, steel and coyotes it really doesn't matter one bit.