I've been wanting a M1A for some time now, however I read that almost all service rifle competitors have gone to the mousegun. (That being said ...I own 2 AR's)
The reason being that the M1A is fickle and needs constant tweaking for it to be competitive. (As stated by a service rifle competitor)
I must say I am of the opinion that only accurate rifles are interesting, and was hoping to buy/build a 1 moa M1A. Is there better .308 rifles out there? I believe there is, but none have the history of the M-14 or the allure of one.
So tell me if I am wrong in getting one. Also i read that brass only lasts 4 firings in a M1A...bummer. .308 brass is not easy or cheap to replace. I roll my own for all my rifles.
1.) because I can get the most accurate ammo for a given rifle
2.) I AM CHEAP.
I say get one.
They are more expensive to make accurate and shoot.
You can get the brass to last longer than 4 firings if you size it properly. I'm on 7 firings in one of mine.
I'd sell all of my AR's before I'd sell one of my M-14 types, if I had to.
Just my opinion.
pg
I
Are you going to shoot in competitions? If not you don't really need a super accurate M1A. If you just want a super accurate M1A you may get lucky when you buy it or you may have to put a lot of money in it.
If I wanted a really accurate .308 I'd get some type of bolt action rifle. Better chance of it being accurate, less cost (usually) to make it accurate if it wasn't.
RCBS has a new die out there called the "X-die". It is said to make the brass last much longer because it does not stretch it during the resizing process like standard dies can.
It's tough to beat an M1A for muzzle to 500 yds. of fast energy on one or more targets. The round shoots through vehicles, small trees, etc. As the many says, ".30 caliber, turning cover into concealment since 1903". Yes, he's talking about the 30.06 but the .308, with service rifle bullets is about the same as the 30.06 with the same bullets.
If you insist on a target rifle, Springfield Armory builds factory match grade rifles.
The other semi auto .308 rifles aren't any closer to being a target rifle than the M1A is (FAL, Saiga, CETME, H&K, etc.)
There's always the AR-10 platform. Not allowed in Service Rifle matches, of course, no real historical allure, and not cheap at all.
If all you care about is match performance and cost, I'd concentrate on your AR's. You're not going to be able to beat their accuracy potential, even at long range, without spending a whole lot more money.
If it's more about history than competition, you can just build a "service grade" M1A as a complement to your AR's and not worry about hair-splitting accuracy. That's probably what I'd do in your shoes.
Do you currently shoot service rifle with your AR? If not, you will likely not magically start shooting High Power just because you bought an M1A. With a 1 in 8" or 1 in 7" twist AR15, you can load the heavy match bullets and run with the .308s out to 600yds+. Shoot a half dozen or so High Power matches with a AR15 before you decide that it is not good enough. If you are getting a M1A, do not get it for a precision rifle as something like the Remington SPS Tactical will out shoot it for a fraction of the price and be far more comfortable to shoot with a scope. By the time you mount a comfortable scope on a M1A and get it to shoot sub MOA, you will have well over $2K invested in it. The clear advantage for a M1A over an AR10 is the barrel length and therefore the sight radius. You will be more accurate with it. Even though an AR10 may be inherently more accurate out of the box, you will shoot better with a M1A.
If you have the cash and want a really fun rifle to shoot, go for a M1A. Don't bother using High Power for an excuse, just admit that you want one to have one and shoot it. Save your money and start right out with a Super Match rifle with the fiberglass stock so that you are not doing a bunch of upgrades later which will cost more in the long run. I have seen used Super Match M1As pop up on Gunbroker for around $2200. They are more often found for $2500-ish used. You just need the cash in the bank and be patient.
All good answers, thank you. This rifle is not for high power, only for my pleasure. I have a bolt gun (Savage 10FCP HS in .308 and switch barrel 6.5 CSS) which does 1/2 moa for my long range fun shoots. We do KD up to 525 yds in the winter up here, cold but great fun. Trouble is , it's mostly bench shooting.
Your answers to the M1a question just make me want to get one even more. Guess I'll look at a loaded or NM. That should satisfy my accuracy hangup, while still being field ready. I look forward to owning and shooting one in one of our boot camps. Training at my range is limited to 100 to 400 yds. Could go a few miles and do 600yds.
I appreciate your responses. Rifleman are the nicest people.
Crisp triggers to all of you.
Sparks1,
Just from my perspective of shooting. I do not own anything AR and am not extremely impressed with them. (My brother owns an AR15 & an AR10, so yes I have limited trigger time.) Last year, April 19 weekend to be exact, I shot The Guys M1A and fell in love with it. I have shot a bolt action .308 for about 30ish years and really like that rifle, but to me no comparison to the M1A. I wanted one from that moment. This past Christmas my brother gave me an M1A. Springfield Armory, no bells, whistles, nothing match grade. I just returned from the range shot 1-2 moa on 400 yd target from prone. I have less than 500 rounds through the rifle. Old Dog's previous forum name is #1 in my heart---M1A4Me!!
Happy shooting and keep the Faith!
In His Grip,
Ratchett
Sparks--Sounds like you are on track. AR platform is easier to make accurate, M1 (M1A) is easier to place foot-pounds of energy on target.
I don't think you will EVER regret getting an M1 or M1A platform, and if you do you will always be able to get your money out of it.
FWIW, I am on 5 firings with 7.62x51 brass with no indications of failure.
SoM
Quote from: sparks1 on May 30, 2010, 07:47:27 PM
All good answers, thank you. This rifle is not for high power, only for my pleasure. I have a bolt gun (Savage 10FCP HS in .308 and switch barrel 6.5 CSS) which does 1/2 moa for my long range fun shoots. We do KD up to 525 yds in the winter up here, cold but great fun. Trouble is , it's mostly bench shooting.
Your answers to the M1a question just make me want to get one even more. Guess I'll look at a loaded or NM. That should satisfy my accuracy hangup, while still being field ready. I look forward to owning and shooting one in one of our boot camps. Training at my range is limited to 100 to 400 yds. Could go a few miles and do 600yds.
I appreciate your responses. Rifleman are the nicest people.
Crisp triggers to all of you.
If I can swing it, I will bring both an M1A and an AR10 to the IBC in 3 weeks for you to compare :)...
Quote from: fepowered on May 30, 2010, 08:41:49 PM
Quote from: sparks1 on May 30, 2010, 07:47:27 PM
All good answers, thank you. This rifle is not for high power, only for my pleasure. I have a bolt gun (Savage 10FCP HS in .308 and switch barrel 6.5 CSS) which does 1/2 moa for my long range fun shoots. We do KD up to 525 yds in the winter up here, cold but great fun. Trouble is , it's mostly bench shooting.
Your answers to the M1a question just make me want to get one even more. Guess I'll look at a loaded or NM. That should satisfy my accuracy hangup, while still being field ready. I look forward to owning and shooting one in one of our boot camps. Training at my range is limited to 100 to 400 yds. Could go a few miles and do 600yds.
I appreciate your responses. Rifleman are the nicest people.
Crisp triggers to all of you.
If I can swing it, I will bring both an M1A and an AR10 to the IBC in 3 weeks for you to compare :)...
Thanks...I have shot a DPMS .308 (a friends) Shoots well but is like hauling around a boat anchor during deer hunting. Okay for stand shooting, but I like to sneak and peek.
See you@ Bowler...
Ron
Well in 1978 I bought a new M1A with a match barrel on in for $420.00 with a walnut stock. One year later I was offered $750.00 for it by the dealer that sold it to me. I told him I would never sell it, it shoots one MOA or less. I carried one in VN as the AR's just didn't cut it, they jammed all the time. My M14 never did, it was heavy and so was the ammo but it worked good, a fine machine.
I own two AR's for fun but if you told me I was going to be in a gun fight they would still be in the safe and I would have my M1A. AR's have dust covers on them because they can't stand dust and grit. As a friend of mine said once "the AR is the only rifle that craps on it's self" (I cleaned that up for the forum).
JG
Folks, lets not let this turn into a "reason not to have an AR" thread. A lot of folks like ARs and will bring them to Appleseeds to learn to shoot them better. Let's not prerpetuate the stories told over the years that "if you want to shoot your AR don't go to an Appleseed because they are anti AR and pro M1A/M1". I know many of us have seen that rumor/complaint before.
Even though my forum name here used to be (still is on several other forums) M1A4ME I own AR's. Why? They can be bought for less money than an M1A. They can be very accurate. They are easy to build (so you buy parts a little at a time and put them together yourself). There are lots of parts available (necessary parts and those cool parts you don't really need but you know you want to put on your AR). They have .22 conversion kits available that make them so cheap to shoot (and fun) that nothing else comes close when you're looking for a cheap training rifle that closely mimics your center fire rifle.
If I still hunted I'd be squirrel hunting with my little CAR15 and the .22 conversion kit (little dime sized 10 shot groups at 25 meters if I do my part).
Anyway, if you get the M1A get a sling from the Appleseed store, by some magazines from 44mag.com (same GI magazines used by the US Army today) and a GI manual to refer to for cleaning, field stripping, and lubrication instructions and surplus NATO ammo to shoot it in it. You won't be sorry.
Quote from: Old Dog on May 30, 2010, 10:10:17 PM
Folks, lets not let this turn into a "reason not to have an AR" thread. A lot of folks like ARs and will bring them to Appleseeds to learn to shoot them better. Let's not prerpetuate the stories told over the years that "if you want to shoot your AR don't go to an Appleseed because they are anti AR and pro M1A/M1". I know many of us have seen that rumor/complaint before.
OD and Sparks,
I agree with above comment and most definitely did not mean to imply. I think it is shooter preference. Honestly, I am just partial to wooden stocks, but they do crack and warp :(
In His Grip,
Ratchett
x
I have no desire for an M1A, they're just too common.
If I get a wood stocked, detachable mag .308 it will be a BM59.
Old Dog>>> I argee about let this not turn into a Ford Chevy thing. (Oh crap...I started another one ^:)^) I like my AR's and they fill a nitch.
Just think a .30 cal battle rifle is for me and the M1a would fill the slot nicely. American rifle>>>nostalgia and all that. We each choose our firearms according to our preferences. While anothers choice may not be for me, I would not disrespect it. Same with different shooting disciplines. Whatever trips your trigger. It is after all a free country.....thanks to those at Lexington/Concord and after.
AND tomorrow we remember those that have gone before.
Quote from: mtmisfit on May 30, 2010, 11:51:26 PM
I have no desire for an M1A, they're just too common.
If I get a wood stocked, detachable mag .308 it will be a BM59.
A BM59 is definitely on my list of rifles to eventually get. I see them as less practical than a M1A because you are stuck with the same limitations on ammunition as a M1 because of the M1 Garand style gas system and the magazines are not as common. You can not use them in a Garand match or for Service Rifle High Power shooting. For general target shooting and hunting with appropriate rounds they would be fun.
http://www.reesesurplus.com/
for you BM folks.
M14 for me. Wood and steel is class ar15 clunky no class. I own ar15's, accurate but clunky :'(. M14's just feel right O0. See you in Bowler IBC 8) :~ O0.
D-fly @)
M14/M1A platform's good and bad points are listed in great detail in the 'Boston's gun Bible' along with all other common battle rifles. The book attempts quite well at rating the rifles objectively. The book is a great read, with a section on becoming a rifleman based on the writings of some guy named 'Fred'! I know of at least one instructor in AS that got into the program because of reading this book.
"Fred" ??? Hmmmm.....could be I have read some of his writings. Interesting chap, tho' a bit verbose. :bow: Not shy about his opinions either, but when you are trying to awaken a sleeping giant one must shout as loud as you can. O0
On the BM59...Glen Zediker writes that a M1 chambered in .308 is the "slamfiringest rifle" ever. Big bolt with long travel leads to potential slam fire. One must be sure of reloads big time. Thin primers are scary , and with my face that close to the receiver....not for me. The floating firing pin on these rifles sets up such a scenario. Which , of course, is why we load rounds by dropping the bolt on a round in the magazine. Not by placing a round in the chamber and dropping the bolt release. He, Zediker, may be wrong but I err on safety's side.
You have our permission to get an M1A......
Quote from: sparks1 on May 31, 2010, 09:20:30 AM
Not by placing a round in the chamber and dropping the bolt release.
Funny, the US military's manuals for the M1 Garand specify to fully seat the cartridge in the chamber by hand, then release the bolt and allow it to ride home into battery.
If you're after a semi auto .308 that's pretty accurate, check out the .308 AR's (not the AR10 platform). If accuracy is the only thing that matters, grab a Savage .308. If you're after polished steel and wood, check out the M1 or M1A - it's pretty easy to make a M1 a .308.
FN- AR
that's what all my scary friends are getting now......
Quote from: jeep45238 on June 01, 2010, 08:19:51 PM
Quote from: sparks1 on May 31, 2010, 09:20:30 AM
Not by placing a round in the chamber and dropping the bolt release.
Funny, the US military's manuals for the M1 Garand specify to fully seat the cartridge in the chamber by hand, then release the bolt and allow it to ride home into battery.
They probably are talking about the 30/06 cartridge not a re-barreled .308. Dunno...never owned one!.
Military primer cups are thick due to the floating firing pin design of military rifles. That is why they could get away with letting the bolt slam on a chambered round.
Civilian primers are not so thick. Speaking as one who had an M1 slam-fire out of battery on a Federal primer while feeding rounds from a full clip. The bolt blew back with such force that it cracked the rear of the receiver in three places. Glad I'm not wearing an M1 bolt in place of my right eye, or right brain hemisphere for that matter.
I have been recommended to use Winchester primers or CCI #34 service rifle primers from now on. I also use a sled clip (SLD, single load device clip) when required to load one at a time. If I ever chamber one round manually without the sled, I ease the bolt 1/3 of the way forward before releasing it.
Things to keep in mind for M1 shooters who reload.
Quote from: kool aid on June 02, 2010, 12:07:20 AM
FN- AR
that's what all my scary friends are getting now......
The FNAR is a nice gun, but MAN is it heavy. the bolt and mag suspiciously remind me of a BAR hunting rifle (that's not a bad thing)
Quote from: Colorado Pete on June 02, 2010, 12:34:08 AM
Speaking as one who had an M1 slam-fire out of battery on a Federal primer while feeding rounds from a full clip. The bolt blew back with such force that it cracked the rear of the receiver in three places.
Are you sure this was a slam fire induced by the floating firing pin and not by a high primer? The reason I ask is the firing pin on a properly functioning M1 won't protrude from the bolt face unless the bolt is rotated into battery.
Every primer I load (on a Lee hand tool) gets a fingertip check before I put the case down. While this is certainly possible, I consider it highly unlikely.
If the receiver bridge and firing pin are in good condition it would be pretty tough to have a slam fire. Problem is, who inspects rifles out there for the public? As stated, in proper condition the tip of the firing pin is held back inside the bolt until the bolt rotates into the locked position - only at that point should the firing pin be able to move forward far enough hit the primer. It does hit the primer as evidenced by the tiny dimple in the primer you'll see when you remove a chamber, but unfired, round from the rifle chamber.
This is easy to see/check - pull the receiver/action out of the stock, remove the spring guide and spring from the rifle, turn the rifle upside down, use the op rod to run the bolt into and out of the locked position. Watch the "tail" that sticks off the end of the firing pin vs. the slot in the receiver bridge. The tail will only line up with the slot/notch in the receiver bridge when the bolt is in the position for firing. If your firing pin is worn or the receiver bridge improperly made then the firing pin may contact the primer too soon or with too much force.
My Standard model M1A shoots less than 2 MOA with surplus ammo. I am sure it would shoot 1 MOA or less with match grade or handloaded stuff, but I've never had the occasion to try it.
The match grade versions of the M1A may be a little more accurate out of the box, but the standard is plenty good enough for me. I went with the standard model with the regular chrome-lined barrel for barrel life, reliable feeding, and weight.
I thought about an FNAR, but yeah, they are on the heavy side, they use a proprietary mag, and they're not proven battle rifles. And yes, they are a BAR fitted with a high-cap mag. They are very accurate, though.
By the way, .308 ARs are service rifle-legal now, with the adoption of the M-110. If you get one, I wouldn't recommend DPMS... they make them all with overly heavy barrels that are not good for a rifle you plan on carrying in the field. The Rock River Arms LAR-8 is pretty interesting, though. The price is right, and they come standard with RRA's nice 2-stage trigger.
But if I get another .308 battle rifle any time soon, it will be Kel Tec's new RFB Bullpup. I'm just waiting for them to release the model with the 24" barrel. They just have the 18" ones out now. I won't be getting rid of my M1A for it, but that design looks very promising.
Quote from: mtmisfit on June 02, 2010, 12:18:55 PM
Quote from: Colorado Pete on June 02, 2010, 12:34:08 AM
Speaking as one who had an M1 slam-fire out of battery on a Federal primer while feeding rounds from a full clip. The bolt blew back with such force that it cracked the rear of the receiver in three places.
Are you sure this was a slam fire induced by the floating firing pin and not by a high primer? The reason I ask is the firing pin on a properly functioning M1 won't protrude from the bolt face unless the bolt is rotated into battery.
You can have a slam fire yet not have an out of battery fire. The concern is not firing out of battery but an unintended discharge. Commercial primers can easily be fired when used in a battle rifle with a floating firing pin. Armalite uses a firing pin return spring to prevent this from occuring.
Quote from: Old Dog on June 02, 2010, 01:18:17 PM
If the receiver bridge and firing pin are in good condition it would be pretty tough to have a slam fire. Problem is, who inspects rifles out there for the public? As stated, in proper condition the tip of the firing pin is held back inside the bolt until the bolt rotates into the locked position - only at that point should the firing pin be able to move forward far enough hit the primer. It does hit the primer as evidenced by the tiny dimple in the primer you'll see when you remove a chamber, but unfired, round from the rifle chamber.
This is easy to see/check - pull the receiver/action out of the stock, remove the spring guide and spring from the rifle, turn the rifle upside down, use the op rod to run the bolt into and out of the locked position. Watch the "tail" that sticks off the end of the firing pin vs. the slot in the receiver bridge. The tail will only line up with the slot/notch in the receiver bridge when the bolt is in the position for firing. If your firing pin is worn or the receiver bridge improperly made then the firing pin may contact the primer too soon or with too much force.
You are right on old dog, I have shot all kinds of primers in my M1A and never had a slam fire. I also drop the bolt on the first round to load, this is the same action as when the rifle is loading it self. You will have misfires from not fully locking the bolt down, such as easeing the bolt forward on the first round.
JG
Quote from: fepowered on June 02, 2010, 06:59:42 PM
Quote from: mtmisfit on June 02, 2010, 12:18:55 PM
Quote from: Colorado Pete on June 02, 2010, 12:34:08 AM
Speaking as one who had an M1 slam-fire out of battery on a Federal primer while feeding rounds from a full clip. The bolt blew back with such force that it cracked the rear of the receiver in three places.
Are you sure this was a slam fire induced by the floating firing pin and not by a high primer? The reason I ask is the firing pin on a properly functioning M1 won't protrude from the bolt face unless the bolt is rotated into battery.
You can have a slam fire yet not have an out of battery fire. The concern is not firing out of battery but an unintended discharge. Commercial primers can easily be fired when used in a battle rifle with a floating firing pin. Armalite uses a firing pin return spring to prevent this from occuring.
He stated he had an out of battery slam fire, hence my question. I know slam fires can occur but I've never had one/seen one. I use standard CCI for almost all my handloads.
There are so many variables in such an incident. The condition of the rifle (wear, cleaning, parts fit) and the load used (properly reloaded ammo, improperly reloaded ammo, factory ammo) and exactly what was going on at the time.
I used Federal bench rest primers in my M1A for almost 10 years with no issues at all. Lately I've been using the CCI military primers since I've been "bit" by the M1 bug.
I've never seen a slam fire or out of battery fire either but it happens. I saw a case of one awhile back in one of those cheap old Russian rifles everyone recommends as a cheap starter rifle or a rifle to store away to give your surviving neighbors. The guy was working the bolt and as he slammed the bolt forward to feed/chamber the round and the round went off before it was fully chambered. Made a mess. Bad things can happen sometimes.
An M1A isn't necessary for target shooting, for hunting, for plinking, for AQTs, for protection, etc., etc. but it is legal and it does give you a comfortable feeling when you have confidence in your rifle and your ability to use it.