I just bought some Wolf ammo (first time) and have been running it through an AR. After about 60-80 rounds, it started failing to feed. At first, the next round would be crowded together with the old case, and then it started to just lock down on the old case without enough motion to dislodge the next round. Once, It actually chambered a new round and still clamped down on the old case; I don't know how it managed that. It was mostly on the first round of a mag with 5 rounds, charged from the bolt release (starting with an open bolt). Once it failed on such a first round with a full pull/cycle of the charging handle and once it failed on the second or third round. I can't remember this thing ever failing to feed, even after 200-300 rounds of reloaded Lake City.
I've heard Wolf is "dirty" and I figured it just needed cleaning. OK, so I cleaned it, and I assume it will start working fine again for a while---though I was thinking to take it (and the cheap Wolf ammo) to an Appleseed and the thought of cleaning the thing after every AQT is obviously unappealing.
I must say, however, that the Wolf shoots as good (and perhaps better) than the Lake City---or maybe I'm just getting better, it's a little hard to tell. In any case, here are my questions:
(1) Is there a particular location on the rifle that needs to be cleaned to get it feeding correctly again? Say I was in the field and needed to remedy such a failure to feed as quickly as possible, what would I do? Is most of the offending soiling on the outside of the bolt carrier or elsewhere? (As a side note, the rails on the bolt carrier didn't look that dirty; the thin coat of tetra-lube I had on them was still clearish-white for the most part.)
(2) Is there some cleaning procedure (leave something un-oiled or some such) that would give me a longer period of reliable performance, say out to 200 rounds?
(3) Is it possibly significant that it was usually the first round or with using the bolt release? (It did seem to do better, if I started with a closed bolt and then used the charging handle, but I can't say that I really did it enough that way to be statistically significant. I probably went through 9 or 10 strings of 5 rounds each, and used the charging handle 2 or 3 times.)
I remember one more thing. Perhaps this is a minor detail. When I went to clean it, the gas rings on the bolt were not spread out at 120 degrees. They weren't right together, but they were on one side with probably about 10 degrees separation. I've seen some kind of ring replacement that makes it completely unnecessary to adjust the spacing on the rings.
(4) Could it be that I was losing too much pressure with the ring placement? I know I spaced them correctly, when I put it together the last time, so they must move around during operation. If this is significant, it's a very poor design. Is it worth it to get one of those fancy sets of rings/fancy bolt, whatever?
You don't need to bother answering these questions by telling me to get a real rifle---I know, I know.
I've yet to see an American/NATO caliber rifle successfully complete an Appleseed when using Wolf or Silver Bear ammunition.
That includes several M1A's in 7.62 in the mix. Minis, AR's, FALs.
Brass, to a certain degree, is self-cleaning with chamber fouling. That's why your brass is dirty when it comes out. Steel doesn't soak up the fouling, and doesn't obturate as well. The result is a build-up in the chamber.
Combloc rifles can run steel because the chamber is tapered along the main body of the case.
American/NATO calibers are straighter through the body, resulting in more friction/resistance.
I've never had reliability issues with my "Appleseed" AR - S&W M&P15. Then again, I don't use Wolf ammo. I've used just about everything else, including the Igman crap from CTD, with no issues. Accuracy, on the other hand, is for another thread... I currently use Federal XM193 with the best results regarding function and accuracy.
I'm actually doing a bit of an abuse test on mine - haven't done a full strip/cleaning in about 1500 rounds, and no malfunctions. Just a few drops of oil in the two holes on the bolt carrier, and some oil on the bottom of the bolt carrier where it contacts the hammer. If you want to go a little further, put oil on the "runners" of the bolt carrier where it contacts the receiver.
Not sure what's causing your extraction failures.
I've also not seen issues with the gas rings. As long as all three gaps are not perfectly aligned and causing a straight leak path, you should have plenty of pressure to cycle the action.
Does your rifle have a chrome bore/chamber?
I'm not SURE it would help but chrome is "slicker" than bare steel. I built one AR specifically for Wolf type ammo. It is a 20" HBAR type with a chrome bore/chamber and chrome bolt/bolt carrier and I've had no issues with Wolf. Its only had a couple hundred rounds through it but so far, no problems.
I've read several times that if you run 3 or 4 brass cased shells through your rifle every fifty rounds or so while firing the steel cased ammo it will help "pull" the crud out of the chamber. I haven't tried it, just read about it.
Part of the issue (again, just read about it) is supposed to be that the steel cases won't swell up and seal the chamber off around the neck/shoulder as the brass cases do and that lets more carbon/debris get back into the chamber along the case wall area.
Also, Wolf is said to be a little weaker than standard US ball ammo in 5.56X45/.223 Remington ammo.
How well are you lubing the bolt, carrier, buffer, spring, etc? Lube helps parts slide/move better together better.
H
I have shot a little bit of Wolf through my Bushmaster M-4 without any problems, like 100 or so rounds. I used to belive that Wolf jamming an AR was a myth but have seen it now twice first hand. I have read a book "Gun Digest of the AR-15" by Sweeney and he wrote that he fired over a 1000 rounds of Wolf without any malfunction and that he believed the problems reported were due to laquer coated cases. Wolf now uses a Polymer coating. I think Wolf gave him the ammo for free so we may not have an objective writer. I would advise getting some brass cased stuff to use for Appleseed and shoot up whatever Wolf you may have in practice. Fiocchi is good stuff you can get it here: www.ammunitiontogo.com
As far as cleaning goes I would pay extra close attention to the chamber as the malfunctions I have seen are failure to extract/ stuck case. Use liberal amounts of solvent like Hoppes #9. Take an old 9mm or .40 brush and wrap a patch around it. Use that on your cleaning rod to roto rooter out the chamber.
The malfunctions you described though sounded like a double feed which is always caused by a worn out magazine or a magazine not seated completely.
Good luck
I have seen many arguements on the internet about Wolf. But like you guys say, I have not seen an AR get through an AS without having problems, using wolf. That coating on there just makes everything really sticky and gooey. Ring placement is a myth.
Thanks for the advice guys. The common thread seems to be that the likely problem location is the chamber (which I hadn't considered). I don't think I have a chrome chamber. It was pretty well lubed/oiled when I put it together, but I think the oil was pretty effectively soaked up by the soot---according to the way it felt when I took it apart.
So I guess the place to clean in an "emergency" is the chamber. Good to know. And also probably just oil/wipe down the bolt carrier. It's good to know that I might be able to get by without taking the bolt out of the carrier and the firing pin out of the bolt every 60 rounds.
Dwayne, I'll also try some grease on the bolt; I've only ever put it on the carrier rails. (Though I do have some concern about the soot mixing with the grease and gumming up.
In teotwawki, I'll be using something else and brass too.
n
Wolf ammo can be problematic in AR's...I can't prove this but I think it is from the type of powder they use. If the gas impulse is to great/pressures too high, the bolt carrier tries to pull back on the locked bolt, wasting its energy, and short stroking. If the pressures are too low, it will also short stroke.
I have had no problems at all with the Barnaul brands (Brown bear is my favorite). I prefer the lacquered cases.
Most people who have malf. with ARs don't have enough oil in the bolt carrier. It should be nearly dripping wet. I would not use grease on any of the upper parts on the AR.
I would not use grease on an AR type rifle it attracts dirt and makes it harder to clean. Proper lube and a good cleaning will do ,make sure to clean the chamber area well. Using lots of lube may float the carbon out of the way experiment with it. http://www.mdtstraining.com/AR15MaintenanceCleanLube.pdf
http://www.operationalmedicine.org/TextbookFiles/FMST_20008/FMST_1219.htm
http://www.armystudyguide.com/content/SMCT_CTT_Tasks/Skill_Level_1/0713112025-sl1-maintain-a.shtml
http://trainingnco.pbworks.com/f/071-311-2025%20Maintain%20an%20M16.pdf
I have no issues with Wolf ammo in any of my ARs. I lube with grease all the time. Dripping with oil is not good. Oil can get in the chamber and bore and cause over pressure, blowing primers is the minimal that i have seen. You can imagine the worse effects.
On range qualification day we use to line the pvts up with their m16 broke down shotgun style and spray CLP into their receivers and on the bolt ( stay away from the bolt face) to prevent feeding problems, it worked and never saw any negative side effects, maybe we were just lucky. Proper lubing and cleaning will keep an AR running even with dirty ammo. There can be issues with the recoil spring bolt or other parts that contribute to the problem ,there's so many manufacturers of these parts, trading parts around may help. Of course if you switch bolts make sure it head spaces to the upper you are putting it in.
Thanks for the additional info and opinions; I'll report back if my future activity/experience seems to turn up anything interesting. And I'll take both Wolf and some brass to the RBC (and a backup rifle).
k
Cleaning? I thought the miraculous poodle popper was supposed to be self-cleaning? **) **) **)
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(1) Is there a particular location on the rifle that needs to be cleaned to get it feeding correctly again? Say I was in the field and needed to remedy such a failure to feed as quickly as possible, what would I do? Is most of the offending soiling on the outside of the bolt carrier or elsewhere? (As a side note, the rails on the bolt carrier didn't look that dirty; the thin coat of tetra-lube I had on them was still clearish-white for the most part.)
Cleaning, chamber brush. In all likelyhood though, simply put some lube in the 2 holes on the bolt carrier group that is visible through the ejection port when the bolt carrier is in battery. That has taken, in my experiance, any non-running AR15 and made it run flawlessly, assuming that the gun is in spec. Don't be stingy with the lube, and use any kind of lube that you have available. Slip2000 is probably the best you'll find, but any/all will work just fine and dandy. Keep the gun wet, especially the bolt and cam pin. Most malfunctions occur from not having enough lube. Think about it - how long would your car engine run with carbon floating around and brass flakes with extreme heat/pressures without proper lubrication? Lube keeps that stuff from wearing out the gun, and keeps it runnin 8)
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(2) Is there some cleaning procedure (leave something un-oiled or some such) that would give me a longer period of reliable performance, say out to 200 rounds?
Properly lubricate the bolt and carrier with Slip 2000 - I've ran several AR's very hard and have dumped over 400 rounds down the tube with consistent .11 splits, and the bolt and cam pin were still lubed, and the rifles ran 100%.
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(3) Is it possibly significant that it was usually the first round or with using the bolt release? (It did seem to do better, if I started with a closed bolt and then used the charging handle, but I can't say that I really did it enough that way to be statistically significant. I probably went through 9 or 10 strings of 5 rounds each, and used the charging handle 2 or 3 times.)
If you don't have consistency in the racking of the action, you will have issues. It is faster, consistent in it's feeding, and works 100% of the time assuming that you have an action spring and bolt catch are within spec. You can ride the charging handle and cause a malfunction - you MAY gain at most 1/8th of an inch rearward motion by using the charging handle instead, and will gain nothing in reliability of feeding while increasing the chances of malfunction.
Fixed stock spring : 11 3/4 to 13 1/2 inches
collapsable spring : 10 1/16 to 11 1/4 inches
I would highly suggest purchasing a Magpul B.A.D. lever as well, it makes reloading and malfunction clearing much faster and more consistent. It's $30.
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I remember one more thing. Perhaps this is a minor detail. When I went to clean it, the gas rings on the bolt were not spread out at 120 degrees. They weren't right together, but they were on one side with probably about 10 degrees separation. I've seen some kind of ring replacement that makes it completely unnecessary to adjust the spacing on the rings.
That's irrelevant. The DI gas system has been proven by Colt to function on 1 ring. Clean, lightly lube, and go. If you insert the bolt into the carrier (not bottomed out) and hold the carrier so that the bolt faces the ground vertically, the bolt should stay in place. If it falls from the carrier, it's time to replace the rings.
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(4) Could it be that I was losing too much pressure with the ring placement? I know I spaced them correctly, when I put it together the last time, so they must move around during operation. If this is significant, it's a very poor design. Is it worth it to get one of those fancy sets of rings/fancy bolt, whatever?
No, you're not loosing pressure with ring placement. It's not significant. It is not a very poor design. It's not worth it, but if spending $3 on a fancy spiral makes you more confident about your rifle without causing a malfunction, than it's $3 well spent.
Steel cased ammunition is NOT bad for your rifle, it functions just fine. From an engineering standpoint, it's simply a bunch of bunk based upon misunderstood symptoms that are passed on by people never taking the time to understand why things are happening. And considering all of the various lubricants I've used, gun grease, oil, ATF, used motor oil, axle grease, vasoline, water - and we'll just say a lot of things that most wouldn't considering using on a firearm for lube - the only thing that's important is that the rifle is lubed. Pick your favorite and go with it.
Henschman - this isn't the beginning of the AR platform's surface any more - people are thankfully now aware that there is no such thing as a self cleaning rifle, and many AR's are chrome lined in the bore/chamber/bolt carrier/gas key. Let's keep the comments relevant ;)
Quote from: DwayneH on May 27, 2010, 10:27:29 AM
As far as using oil vs grease goes:
But first a Disclaimer {I have never used an M-16 in combat in a sandy environment like Iraq, but the information I am giving was given to me from people who were}
You can get by with using significantly less quantiyt-wise when using grease vs using oil where you need to use a lot more. Less quantity=less stuff for dirt to get attracted to. A good lube job with a good oil works well up to about 300-500 rounds. After that, the oil has either burned off or gotten blown off by action cycling or blow back gases. I realize that 3-5 hundred rounds sounds like a lot from an Appleseed perspective, but not an unusual amount when engaged or at a high round count training class.
If you haven't already, download and read "Taking Back the Infantry Half Kilometer" It is chock full of good info including M16 maintenance.
http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=12314.0
http://www.scribd.com/doc/27765477/Increasing-Small-Arms-Lethality-in-Afghanistan-Taking-Back-the-Infantry-Half-Kilometer?secret_password=&autodown=pdf
Why does your car engine use oil instead of grease in the engine? The AR works very similar to an internal combustion engine. The bolt is the piston and the bolt carrier is the cylinder. If you grease this area, the grease will change to a tar like substance - leaving you a gastly mess. Oil, however, will burn off relatively cleanly. I agree that if you are starting to malfunction, pull the bolt back slightly and drop oil in the gas holes. I use synthetic motor oil as it doesn't burn off as quickly as other oils, plus it is cheap! Someone should patent a device that instead of a forward assist, the button would squirt in a shot of oil.....
Another AR shooter here. I second the comments about using oil instead of grease on the internals of the AR. Had to clean the BCG after using Tetra Grease and basically it looked like gritty sandy mud. Basically a mix of grease, carbon and unburned powder. Not good as it made the BCG hard to cycle and I could feel and hear the grinding. I've even stopped using grease on the trigger group as I found that unburnt powder and dust liked to stick to the grease on these parts making the trigger gritty and heavier.
Also, I've stopped using Breakfree for lubrication and protection as it does not stay in place over time. I find that 'light' film of Slip 2000 EWL oil does a great job with lubrication and protection and because it is a light coat, there is a lot less carbon and unburnt powder sticking to the BCG after a shooting session.
Now Wolf ammo. I've found that different rifles feed Wolf differently. The difference seems to do with the amount of headspace, gas port size, gas length, chamber specs, chamber coating, and extractor. Bascially it runs down like this. Headspace affects case stretching, less stretching may mean that it is easier to release steel cases. Gas port size and length affect the force and timing of extraction, too much force may lead to ripped rims. Chamber specs with tighter or looser tolerances can affect the release of the steel cases and the amount of blowby which can cause poly coated steel cases to stick. Not enough tolerance and the chamber becomes too tight as well. Different barrel coatings such as chrome lining and nitriding have better natural lubricity than plain barrels. Finally if the extractor is chipped or spring worn it can affect extraction hold. Also if you've been shooting the AR a while, you will find a lot of crud under the extractor which can affect how well the extractor can hold onto a case rim. These are just my observations based on a pair of ARs. One which eats Wolf all day long and one which I keep well away from Wolf ammo.
As has been pointed out by several others, tapered cases (like 7.62x39) will feed & fire quite happily when made out of steel. Straighter cases need to be made out of brass to work as reliably.
Mudcat, excessive oil may cause excessive pressures and blown primers; but blown primers may also be a sign of the bolt unlocking too quickly (a common problem with the AR family, and exacerbated with the 16" barrels on carbine-length gas systems intended for 14.5" barrels).
For lubrication questions, this is a fantastic article:
http://www.ar15.com/content/swat/keepitrunning.pdf
Another article that anyone owning an AR or advising AR shooters should read is this:
http://www.ar15barrels.com/prod/operation.shtml
It lays out in great detail (yet is easy to read) exactly how the AR gas system works and how it can go wrong. (Hint, the extractor is rarely the problem, it's usually the gas system timing that causes extraction problems).
franklinfarmer, without looking at your rifle's failures it occurs to me that it may be short-stroking. What weight of buffer do you have in it? (carbine, H, H2, H3) I'd normally suggest a heavier buffer for Wolf ammo to slow bolt unlocking and let the case unstick from the chamber; but if it's unlocking too slowly you may want to go to a lighter buffer. (If you have a sticky chamber tho, this won't help and you're still screwed for other reasons).
Quote from: Redchrome on July 06, 2010, 08:01:57 AM
Straighter cases need to be made out of brass to work as reliably.
Says what part of physics? #)
Brass is softer than steel (in most cases) and tends to break loose from the chamber walls more easily.
To ease extraction, a heavy taper on the case means that the case walls tend to come 'off' the chamber walls rather than slide across them. (The reverse is true; a heavy taper eases feeding).
Consider the Morse taper on a lathe tailstock. Tapered so that you can easily pop the tool loose from the tailstock even after it's been there under heavy pressure for a while.
Consider that cases for blowback-operated autoloading pistols (.32 ACP, .380 Auto, 9mm Makarov) tend to be straight-walled so they stick in the chamber a bit longer.
My firsthand evidence of hard extraction with steel cases was when I was shooting Wolf ammo in a .45ACP revolver; and the steel-cased ammo would be really hard to extract sometimes. Maybe some of this can be attributed to the coating on the case; but at any rate; steel-cased ammo was obviously harder to extract than brass-cased ammo.
I've seen similar things to others at Appleseeds and other shooting events, where steel-cased ammo will eventually give feeding and extraction problems in calibers like .223 and .308. My AK and SKS however will feed & fire until the end of days with it. (The ammunition and magazine design are some of the biggest but most overlooked reasons for the AK's legendary reliability).
The reason why I bring it up is pretty simple - just because something is made out of steel or brass does NOT mean that it will or will not stick, or should or shouldn't be ran in XYZ rifle.
Quite simply, chamber dimensions and coatings matter MORE (much more) than the material the case is made out of. Annealed steel, especially the current polymer coated offerings, is sized through a die to function properly in a .223 chamber during feeding and extraction. Brass is done the same, but due to the large amount of springback steel has it's sized to a slightly different dimension to prevent said sticking.
The problem doesn't come up until somebody shoots steel case ammo quite a bit, and then starts to shoot brass without a good chamber cleaning - the chamber dimension is now smaller due to the springback of the steel case allowing firing residue to coat the chamber, and when you toss in brass and fire it, it will expand fully and more or less stay in that dimension - and stick.
A rifle made to spec and ammo made to spec will always be happy together. Don't be so quick to blame the ammo, since there's so few manufacturers of the steel cased ammo. Look instead to the myriad of rifle builders these days of AR's who have drastically different chamber specs, heat treatments, and coating specs (very similar to 1911's).
Just wanted to get you to think a bit deeper about it - I know exactly what you're trying to convey, but that's really not the reason why it happens - at least from the perspective of mechanical engineering.
I appreciate people who make me think more about things. :)
I am learning more and more about the differences in chamber dimensions/tolerances. Here's a good comparison:
http://www.ar15barrels.com/data/223-556.pdf
Here's a brief synopsis of real-world experience:
http://www.defense-training.com/quips/28May10.html
Yes, chamber dimensions will affect reliability with ammo. It still irritates me that .223 is so much more sensitive to such things than 7.62x39 tho. :) (Fundamentally, smaller parts have smaller tolerances, so even a cursory examination of the numbers would indicate some issues.).
We're getting pretty far OT here tho.
Quote from: Redchrome on July 06, 2010, 09:39:18 AM
(Fundamentally, smaller parts have smaller tolerances, so even a cursory examination of the numbers would indicate some issues.).
Now you're gettin' there ;)
Long story short, as long as you clean your chamber out with a chamber brush, and hopefully use a mop/q tips/etc. to get the cleaning gunk out, and lube the bolt well the AR will run. This is assuming there isn't a tolerance stack up issue between the rifle's chamber and the ammunition chosen, and that the action spring, buffer, and gas system are all in spec.
Many, many, many good points on here. Good theories, good examples, good thoughts. But, they may or may not be good for you, franklinfarmer!
The thing with the AR is it's a finicky rifle. I won't go down the road of this one's better than that one, you need this part, that part, etc. However, you do need to learn the intricacies of your personal rifle. They're all a little different. Some will shoot Wolf no problem. Some will shoot Bear but not Wolf. Some will shoot Lake City but not Bear. Regardless of what your rifle will shoot or won't shoot, it can probably be coaxed into shooting all of it if you find the right "trick." There have been plenty listed on here so I won't get into that either but suffice to say, you can spend some time at the range and figure out what it takes to run what you're shooting.
Personally, I've had problems with Wolf or Bear when it's lacquer coated and I've rapidly fired a whole bunch of rounds and made the rifle really hot. It literally melts the stuff and gums it all up. Polymer coated does a whole lot better but still gums a little with rapid fire or on really hot days. If you're going to shoot Wolf, make sure it's polymer coated and try to give the rifle time to cool. That'll take care of most of your problems right there. As Dwayne said, don't stack this stuff for SHTF, but use it for practice. As others have noted, the Barnaul stuff (Bears) works pretty well.
I'd have to agree with NEWGUY556 that the problems you described sounded like lacquer coating (possibly polymer) melting and gumming up and then if that wasn't it, the magazines. Sometimes when we shoot Appleseed style we either push on the mag with our forearm or even set it on the ground (I know, I know... but it does happen.) or do something else to mess with the flush fit. Some mags will mess up even with the slightest pressure on them.
You can test this and correct it by inserting an empty mag, slinging up, and plopping down into prone at home on your living room floor. (Make sure company is over so you can 7th step them!) Check to see if you're putting any weight on the mag. If you are, reposition until you aren't. Some folks use 20 rd. mags so they're not resting on their shooting mat or the ground with the magazine. If you're doing any of those things, repostion until you're not.
Some mags just won't work in your rifle. I've literally seen a dude throw down his rifle in disgust because it wouldn't feed. I popped in one of my mags and started blasting away. Then, other times, I've had mags that didn't work well in my rifle. I swapped 'em out. All that goes back to your personal rifle being finicky about what it will and won't work with.
Head to the range, have some fun, and test it all out. Eventually, you'll find the right combination. You'll also become better at running your rifle. My AR seemed to run better after I ran several thousand rounds through it. Like you said above, maybe it was the rifle.... maybe it was me. It was probably a little of both!
Extractor upgrade :
Five coil chrome/silcon spring & a donut = cheap & simple.
Also keep it lubed.