I don't doubt these are accurate rifles - they are.
But are they reliable enough for an Appleseed weekend?
- the ones I've seen haven't made it through a weekend, but I haven't seen enough to draw a conclusion
Beyond that, are they durable enough for LTR duty?
- which would entail running multiple weekends flawlessly, being simple enough to maintain and easy enough to clean, and have available/cheap magazines.
any peculiarities?
(I'm aware of the law-dept design on the trigger.)
I have two that I own, will lend during AS but don't feel they have had enough use to evaluate well. I haven't had much problem with them beyond the operator. I like the design but they aren't works of art. I put a search in on this forum for Remington 597 and got a lot of comments from users and non supporters.
Had one. Sold it.
Admittedly, mine was one of the earlier-production ones, but it was a jam-o-matic. Lots of stovepiping. Tightening down the set screws that hold the rails in place too much will bow the rails and slow the bolt enough to cause issues.
Had one out-of-battery shot, that destroyed the extractor assembly... $20 and a couple weeks at the 'smith later and it was still a very unreliable rifle. Finally sent it on down the road with all the magazines and such and a clear description of the issues I had with it.
TheBlonde now has a 10/22 and I've got a 795 and a Savage boltie, and I'm MUCH happier.
I've got one of the tech rifles that Remington makes for Dicks Sporting goods. The only time it's had a problem is with the operator or the guy maintaining it. The bolt hold open spring is very fragile and can be snagged while putting the action in the stock. I put a replacement hammer in it and the trigger is great. Was very dissappointed at first due to the inaccuracy of the thing. It shot pretty consistant groups of 2.5 inchs at 25 yards with the different ammo I was able to try. In a last ditch effort I stuck a magazine of Thunderbolts in it. Bingo, 3/8 groups off the bench at 25 yards.
It's been through 5 Appleseeds and made 3 riflemen.
bulkhead
One of our instructors in Raton has one that has been to a gunsmith who works on these. They require a bit of specific mods to run good without malfs.
It got a trigger job, i.e. new hammer and a couple of other minor things done. It was used by a young person who had never even touched a rifle before.
It ran like a champ.
1 - I've seen two on the line at various shoots. Both of them barfed their extractors over the grass. 2 rifles out of commission, two unhappy shooters.
2 - I worked for 4 months at Lew Horton Distributors selling guns. I had a VERY hard time selling the 597s. NONE of my customers (we're talking gunshops here) wanted them. They asked me for, in order, 10/22s (which we didn't carry - Lew hates Ruger), M&P 15-22s, Marlins and CZs. I had one gun shop owner in LI tell me flat out he won't carry them. "They suck" were his exact words.
While I sold probably 30-40 15-22s, I don't recall ever selling ANY 597s. And I did try.
Given that we shoot between 700-1200 rounds in an AS up here in New England, you will not ever hear me recommend one.
Thanks all - good feedback.
I know DAD and Hotbrass up in Kansas have several that are used as their LTRs, and they love them. Oldgrunt has one as an LTR. It was used on Patriots' Day weekend in the mud and rain, half submerged in water on the firing line, and worked fine. Another one of my friends has one, and likes it. Its only been through one Appleseed, but it did fine.
DAD made a good point when we were discussing the merits of various LTRs... the 597s don't have that annoying bolt hold-open feature, which is so troublesome on Rugers (especially for people who aren't familiar with them, which will mostly be the case with a loaner rifle). Newer Rugers also have the most horrible triggers -- I think mine is about 16 lbs. or so. Remington triggers are much nicer, in my experience. Plus, Rugers are quite a bit more expensive to begin with. The 597 also is more the size and feel of a center fire (I think their stock shape mimics the Remington 700), unlike the Marlin 795. I have heard somewhere on this forum that Marlin Tech Sights will install on a Remington if you use a longer screw on the front sight. Has anyone tried this?
Anyhow, my next LTR will be a Remington 597.
There were 3 on my side of the line Apr 18th at College Station. By early afternoon the mud had them malfing on just about every stage of every AQT. I felt really bad for one guy, he'd shot a 207 while it was working & couldn't ever get back to that level because of malfs (misfires, stovepipes & a couple of times when I saw him pull back the bolt and 2 rds would eject). The rugers on the line were having some FTfire issues, but far fewer.
Guy
I started this thread because last weekend I shot two 597's. One was the Dick's entry model the other was an elk foundation edition all dolled up; a real looker. Both shot accurate and the standard model seemed a good weight.
But both had nasty little "legal department" triggers - long and even a little gritty. (The other shooters liked my 10/22 trigger - all ruger parts but the hammer is stoned according the rimfirecentral.com instructions.)
Anyway, I've been wanting to pick up an LTR loaner and wanted to see 597 if this was a possible, especially since they are quite a bit less than the 10/22.
The reports on the 597 are obviously contradictory, and I figure I'll err on the safe side.
I could go with a Marlin 795, but I'd have to take back all the things I said about them. ::)
Quote from: gunville on April 27, 2010, 11:48:02 PM
I started this thread because last weekend I shot two 597's. One was the Dick's entry model the other was an elk foundation edition all dolled up; a real looker. Both shot accurate and the standard model seemed a good weight.
But both had nasty little "legal department" triggers - long and even a little gritty. (The other shooters liked my 10/22 trigger - all ruger parts but the hammer is stoned according the rimfirecentral.com instructions.)
Anyway, I've been wanting to pick up an LTR loaner and wanted to see 597 if this was a possible, especially since they are quite a bit less than the 10/22.
The reports on the 597 are obviously contradictory, and I figure I'll err on the safe side.
I could go with a Marlin 795, but I'd have to take back all the things I said about them. ::)
Hey, I LIKE the 795!
I have a Remington 597, a marlin 795, and a ruger 10/22. I like all three to be honest, the marlin is wicked accurate for a super cheap 22, especially with the tech sights. The only problem with the marlin is it feels like a childs rifle. The remington feels good to shoot, thats why I bought it, but I have had a ton of trouble finding a decent mag. The rem 10 rounders never take 10, and the 30 rounders are so poorly made that they have to be forced into the mag well. The Ruger is what I took to my first Appleseed, and it got me Rifleman. My wife shot the marlin and almost got rifleman, but I really want to make this remington work. I hope that remington fixes their mag problems or that some other company makes some reliable mags.
It's apparent many of these inexpensive mass produced rifles have quirks no matter what brand and is even a draw of the cards in the same brands. Without getting into an equipment race, many of these quirks can be sorted out with a bit of mechanical skills, slight mods, and plain ol' stubborness! :).....O.L.
I picked up my first 10/22, My Baby, for $185 OTD at a pawn shop. My second, going to be an LTR loaner, I pick up through a forum for $190. I'm just pointing out that the "more expensive" 10/22 can still be had for fairly cheap.
Also, after doing some DIY stuff that I found at RimFire Central, My Baby is practically malf proof. I will get a FTF on cheaper bulk ammo, Winchesters in this case, and every once in a blue moon I will have a stovepipe/FTE. I have also done the same mods to to my newer one but I have yet to shoot it. Hopefully it will end up as good as My Baby.
I don't have a dog in this fight, as I don't own one, so can only post my experiences... I've had two 597's on the line over the last year... 1 self destructed it's innards with an out of battery discharge, and the other was a jam-o-matic... My observations have not been a big confidence builder.. BeSwift
I have 4 597's and 1 795 no mods made to any of them but I did buy them used so can't be sure they are 100% stock.
2 of the 597's and been through Appleseeds without serious malfs, 1 of them went through 3 'seeds with only minor issues and is what I just used while making my rifleman.
My 597 is Well balanced with enough weight without being heavy, and is very accurate. Mag release is way better then 10/22 being on the side just forward of the trigger guard and the mag extends a little below the stock where if it does not just drop free (happened to me about 30% of the time, but a little work on mag well and mags should fix this) you can hold release with thumb and use fingers to extract mag without the same type of fight you would have with a 10/22 in same situation. Good factory sights much better then the 795's. I does have a heavy trigger, but short pull. Once you put enough pressure on it it breaks with basically no travel ( I am guessing about 6lb). I like the 795's trigger better. My 795 I think is to light and it's barrel is 1 1/2 inches shorter then my 597's (length of pull is 1/2inch shorter as well). For me the 795 is just to small and light to take serious and the factory sights are terrible. My biggest issues with my 597 are with the magazines. In the cold the springs just stop working creating failure to feed. I even had one instance where when trying to get the rounds to feed I had a round rotate inside the mag so that is was in backwards and I could not strip it out by hand so I could put the mag back in the rifle.
I like my Marlin but its not a rifle I am going to use often and I personally have not seen anything to change my very high opinion of the 597
I hate the Remington factory mags and I thought that they were all you could get, but I just found these.
http://www.ordertree.com/cms/magazines/12176.html
I think I may have to order one and see how it works. I like 10 rounders though, so I hope they produce some aftermarket 10's as well.
Have not had a chance to run my 597 at an Appleseed yet. Sighting it in, we did have some mag issues. At first only 7 or 8 rounds would go in a mag. After a few mags had been run they started holding 10. I still need to find its favorite "food". My marlin out shot it easily with Federal Walmart bulk. So many rifles, so little range time. As I learn more I will post.
"... I have an odd question -- I have one, and I inadvertently completely disassembled the trigger assembly while cleaning it. I'm not sure how the silly thing goes back together now -- would you be willing to snap a few photos looking down into the trigger assembly so that I could see where all of the springs go?"
of course I can, I could do a video but then I might have trouble putting it back together recorded for all to see. Funny thing, I have a great little camera, and until I cropped the pictures I took I hadn't realized all that dust was there. What was the first thing to go? I forgot.
Anyway, I did try to get the right angles and lightened the product a couple times for some clarity. If you had bought two you could have kept one together until you reassembled the second. Watch out for those springs on the bolt return.
Seen two at two different shoots. The first had trouble extracting but held together. The second was brand new and shucked the extractor on the very first shot. After it was rebuilt by the SB it ran well all weekend. i thought it odd that both had extractor issues while being new, which made me suspect design but, that I know of, both have operated well after that initial gaff.
Finally got some range time with my 597. Ran about 150 rounds down range. Seemed to have about 1.5-2 MOA accuracy. Ran quite reliably with stock mag and extended. This thing looks quite capable of an Appleseed. The stock has quite a nice feel to it. It can pick up the duty to join our Marlin 795 and our Mossberg 702.
My 597 shoots fine...installed a Volquartsen extractor right out of the box....
Was at Lacrosse, WI Appleseed last June. Early on Saturday I observed a 597 that had an out-of-battery round and sent parts flying. No one was hurt, but you could tell by the sound that something had gone wrong. The shooter had to use a loaner for the rest of the weekend.
Mags seem to have issues. pot metal or plastic.
I had bought a pair (1 new, 1 used) based on the accuracy claims, was not satisfied. I will be trading in my 2 at the local pawn shop towards a pair of Marlin 795 loaners.
As always, YMMV
A good friend was looking for a rifle specifically to attend Appleseed. I gave him my standard pep talk about the Marlin 795 and Ruger 10-22. He is rather tall +/- 6'5" with armrs that go forever. Even though I personally prefer the 795 I recomeneded that he look for one of the "full size" 10-22s (22" barrel, full size walnut stock). He found a "full size" used Rem. 597 that he liked and bought it. The first time out with it he tried several brands of ammo with mixed results. He had a couple of ftf, fte issues but the rifle shot ok. I gave him all the pros and cons I found here on the forum along with an 1.25" loop sling and swivels and the advice to practice with it. I believe he checked on one of the rimfire forums and got advice on changing the extractor. Other than that he showed up at the April Appleseed in Waco, GA ready to go. On Sat. he had a couple of FTF issues which he discovered were due to his not seating the magizine fully on stages 2 & 3. After that no functioning issues at all. Sunday his first AQT was a 230. We shot four more AQTs before moving the line back to 100 yds. His lowest score was a 217. His rifle shot under 4 MOA at 100 yds. Total round count for the weekend was over 500 rounds based on the targets shot. I'm not saying that his experience is typical for the 597 but based on it I would not have a problem recomending the 597 especially for someone who needs a "full size rifle".
csw
As per reliability, they're rather hit and miss.... Most are rather finnacky with the ammo.
I really like the style/controls, excepting that the bolt-lock must be engaged through the mag-well.
Picked one up for my sister a couple years ago, with a good utility wood stock even... Only one I've ever seen.
But she's had reliability issues with it... Real frustrating for her.
As per a recomendation.
It would be near the bottom of my list, on account of reliability/consistancy. It may be you get a good one, in that case great! And they're probably just fine for the experienced shooter who can deal with malf's and fix them. Or the determined shooter, who would like to learn to deal with malf's and fix them. Unless the rifle's a complete lemon; I see no reason why a Rifleman couldn't deal with any of its short-comings.
But for the purpose of a loaner. I'd have personally ensure that specific rifle's run several thousand rounds without a hick-up, before I handed it to a shooter at a Seed. Chances are they need it because their rifle was having issues.
Maybe I'll see if I can't experiment with my sister's and have a report by the end of the summer....
Quote from: 4bfox on April 27, 2011, 05:35:01 PM
My 597 shoots fine...installed a Volquartsen extractor right out of the box....
Probably the smartest thing to do with that gun.
Quote from: cswhitfield on April 27, 2011, 08:49:38 PM
A good friend was looking for a rifle specifically to attend Appleseed. I gave him my standard pep talk about the Marlin 795 and Ruger 10-22. He is rather tall +/- 6'5" with armrs that go forever.
<snip>
Total round count for the weekend was over 500 rounds based on the targets shot. I'm not saying that his experience is typical for the 597 but based on it I would not have a problem recomending the 597 especially for someone who needs a "full size rifle".
csw
My only experiences with 597s has all been bad. Not a real reliable rifle in my opinion. Putting the extractor back in is not something I want to do again on the tailgate of a truck. I am CERTAIN that some will disagree. I know Bill 3 loves his.
For a full sized shooter I would recommend the Savage 64F. I have seen them for as little as $140. They look full sized, they feel full sized. I have a Stevens 60, same rifle, and it is almost as accurate as my beloved 795. Mine has run fine for three shooters now, I bought it used and have not cleaned it yet.
YHJ
Not sure about the love part. I recognize some of the deficiencies. The mags leave a lot to be desired and the action gums up as quick if not quicker than the marlins depending on ammo being used.
I have never had a problem with my extractor and mine is as accurate as my marlin. Biggest benefit for me is the size. I'm 6'7" and the full sized stock fits me well. I have also loaned it out without issue. The horror stories I've heard but never experienced...
The reason I'm partial to mine is that it was the first rifle I shot Rifleman with. I like that reason.... that score was a 230 as well......hmmmm maybe there are good ones out there.
My only comment on this (don't own one but have handled a few and seen em' on the line) is that the mag release is a bit funky, especially for those used to 10/22s and ARs.
Is this rifle also called Viper?
JA
Viper is something different. I believe viper is the one with the funky ejection port. Someone at our recent IBC had one, can't remember who.
The Vipers Model number is 522, very different rifle from the 597