I've not been reloading all that long.. A year and a half or so. Mostly 223 for an AR and some .30 cal for bolt rifles. I just started venturing into .308 for an autoloader and have run into something I haven't encountered before. (Brand new to .308 and haven't reloaded this caliber for anything yet.) I'm using Lee dies, to full-length resize some LC brass, and I'm not able to get them to chamber and lock down.
Following the instructions on the die set, I put my shell holder in place, raise the ram and twist the die down to where is touches the shellholder. Then lower the ram and add another 1/4 to 1/3 turn to the die and lock it in place. But the dang thing won't chamber.
I bought the hornady headspace gauge kit to measure against several flavors of stock ammo and sure enough, I'm not pushing the shoulder back far enough. So I crank the die down, another half turn, resize and measure... a little better. I keep repeating this thinking I'm eventually get it the should where it needs to be, but even after 3 or more full turn on the die it's still longer by .008 out from stock ammo cases, and I've stopped gaining ground.
Looking at the process, even when I'm basically standing on the handle and jumping up and down the die just won't go down to meet the shell holder anymore. It's like it's bottomed out, and I can see daylight between the shellholder and the bottom of the die.
I'm thinking that I have a die that is out of spec. Anyone else have any ideas?
Quote from: spitstickler on April 09, 2010, 12:12:42 AM
Following the instructions on the die set, I put my shell holder in place, raise the ram and twist the die down to where is touches the shellholder. Then lower the ram and add another 1/4 to 1/3 turn to the die and lock it in place. But the dang thing won't chamber.
I bought the hornady headspace gauge kit to measure against several flavors of stock ammo and sure enough, I'm not pushing the shoulder back far enough. So I crank the die down, another half turn, resize and measure... a little better. I keep repeating this thinking I'm eventually get it the should where it needs to be, but even after 3 or more full turn on the die it's still longer by .008 out from stock ammo cases, and I've stopped gaining ground.
When the die hits the shell holder and you turn it down another 1/4 turn, that's all you can do. Screwing the die down more will do nothing. Think about it. How could it? When you hit bottom it can go not more.
QuoteLooking at the process, even when I'm basically standing on the handle and jumping up and down the die just won't go down to meet the shell holder anymore. It's like it's bottomed out, and I can see daylight between the shellholder and the bottom of the die.
I'm thinking that I have a die that is out of spec. Anyone else have any ideas?
Back your die out till it just touches the shell holder then screw it back down 1/4 turn. Do you still see daylight between the die and shell holder?
Was the brass fired in the rifle in question?
I have had similar issues with lee dies. I made the mistake of buying them when I first got into reloading because of the price. Go order some RCBS dies and I bet your problem will be solved.
TK
Quote from: douglas34474 on April 09, 2010, 12:52:07 AM
Quote from: spitstickler on April 09, 2010, 12:12:42 AM
Following the instructions on the die set, I put my shell holder in place, raise the ram and twist the die down to where is touches the shellholder. Then lower the ram and add another 1/4 to 1/3 turn to the die and lock it in place. But the dang thing won't chamber.
I bought the hornady headspace gauge kit to measure against several flavors of stock ammo and sure enough, I'm not pushing the shoulder back far enough. So I crank the die down, another half turn, resize and measure... a little better. I keep repeating this thinking I'm eventually get it the should where it needs to be, but even after 3 or more full turn on the die it's still longer by .008 out from stock ammo cases, and I've stopped gaining ground.
When the die hits the shell holder and you turn it down another 1/4 turn, that's all you can do. Screwing the die down more will do nothing. Think about it. How could it? When you hit bottom it can go not more.
QuoteLooking at the process, even when I'm basically standing on the handle and jumping up and down the die just won't go down to meet the shell holder anymore. It's like it's bottomed out, and I can see daylight between the shellholder and the bottom of the die.
I'm thinking that I have a die that is out of spec. Anyone else have any ideas?
Back your die out till it just touches the shell holder then screw it back down 1/4 turn. Do you still see daylight between the die and shell holder?
Was the brass fired in the rifle in question?
I can get it to touch if I back it out like it's supposed to be, no daylight then, but it doesn't push the shoulder back far enough. And no, it's once fired brass, not from this rifle.
I've had good luck with Lee so far, but I guess it was just a matter of time. I'll order a set of RCBS dies with my next Midway order. So hopefully that will take care of the problem.
Save your money. LEE has a good warranty. Call them and they will make it right.
You don't need SB dies unless you have a match chamber. 7.62 and 308 have the same dimensions, the difference is in the chambers themselves, not the size of the cartridge. All a SB die set does is over work your brass.
I have partial resized for the M1 Garand for over 30 years with out issue one. I set my die 1/4 turn UP after the die touches the shell holder. This works great if you're reloading for one rifle. It does not set the shoulder back and reforms the case within 0.0001 of where it should be. After your brass is fire formed to your chamber this method work great. You get a lot longer life on your brass.
FYI, the '06 is 0.005" longer than the chamber you put it in. :o
Quote from: The Kid on April 09, 2010, 01:53:52 AM
I have had similar issues with lee dies. I made the mistake of buying them when I first got into reloading because of the price. Go order some RCBS dies and I bet your problem will be solved.
TK
I wasn't the only one that did that? ;D. All my equipment was Lee, now it's RCBS & Dillon. Trying to load .308 on a Lee Turret was so hard I didn't do it for over a year. With my Dillon 650, I'm back to to it.
Quote from: douglas34474 on April 09, 2010, 10:32:20 AM
Save your money. LEE has a good warranty. Call them and they will make it right.
You don't need SB dies unless you have a match chamber. 7.62 and 308 have the same dimensions, the difference is in the chambers themselves, not the size of the cartridge. All a SB die set does is over work your brass.
I have partial resized for the M1 Garand for over 30 years with out issue one. I set my die 1/4 turn UP after the die touches the shell holder. This works great if you're reloading for one rifle. It does not set the shoulder back and reforms the case within 0.0001 of where it should be. After your brass is fire formed to your chamber this method work great. You get a lot longer life on your brass.
FYI, the '06 is 0.005" longer than the chamber you put it in. :o
True, but I got tired of waiting for new parts and not loading.
Results may vary. ;D
I have two or three sets of LEE dies. Never had a problem.
Did buy a mold for 170 grain flat nose for my 30-30s and it was cut off center. LEE replace it, no questions.
Did you check the case trim length?????
Quote from: douglas34474 on April 09, 2010, 10:44:07 AM
Results may vary. ;D
I have two or three sets of LEE dies. Never had a problem.
Did buy a mold for 170 grain flat nose for my 30-30s and it was cut off center. LEE replace it, no questions.
Did you check the case trim length?????
In all honesty, I didn't have a problem the first 2 years loading lots of 9mm, .45ACP at a little 30-'06. It just started falling apart about 18 months ago. I was new to loading and everything I read said not to start with a progressive, the Lee looked good. No regrets, it's packed up in my garage, just in case I need it some day.
Results may vary, indeed.
If you are going to be reloading for one rifle in the caliber, using only brass fired through that rifle originally then a standard die will do fine. If you are going to be shooting range pickup brass and/or loading for multiple rifles in the caliber then a small base die is in order. I have all Lee gear except the dies, Lee doesn't make small base dies. Got recommendations for RCBS and went with that. I also hate trimming, so got the X-die and am glad I did.
So, if one rifle/same brass deal then an RCBS X-die is the ticket.
If random brass/multiple rifles then an RCBS Small Base X-die is a good idea.
In theory the small base dies don't give as long a case life, but that is probably only true with one rifle/same brass situation. I am on the 6th loading of some 7.62x51mm and 7.62x63mm ;) all fired through autoloaders with no end of life indicators.
SoM
It's definitely not a match chamber and it's 7.62 x 51. All the brass is long but I've always trimmed after I resized. I am sure that a lot of this brass has been fired through mg. Some resize with a normal amount of pressure, but a lot of them are really tight. It makes a lot of noise during the resizing process which I'm not used to hearing. I'm pushing down so hard I'm worried I'll break something on the press (from the Lee kit)
I'm going to borrow a RCBS die this weekend and see if that makes a difference. If that doesn't allow me to resize, maybe I need a press with more leverage? (or a cheater bar... :D jk)
SOM are you using the small base die, or the x-die? (or both)
Hello Group; The Tools that are sold by LEE are not worth the money. They are CRAP. You will spend more time being frustrated with the JUNK they call tools. Send the stuff back and demand a REFUND. They need to know YOU are not happy and have no intention on settling for the garbage they sell. I have two Lee tools, they work OK, they are a case trimmer in .30 carbine, and the hand priming unit that I have retired since RCBS came out with the one that does not need a shell holder for each size..
Stick with any company OTHER than LEE, I wonder why they are still around :wall: :wb: :wall: :wb: :wall: :wb:
This is my opinion, I am at the loading bench more than I am any where else, you make your own mind up, I have!!!
Pappy
I have the RCBS small base, X-die for 5.56, 7.62x54 and .30/06. I believe I ordered them from Midway. Prior to using them I had similar problems with sizing and reliability (I am in the range pickup/multiple rifle situation), and had a myriad of suggestions blaming both dies and presses. Went to SB X-dies and no more problems (not had to do any more trimming yet either 8)). I use Lee O-frame and turret presses for rifles, Pro1000 for pistols.
SoM
On the small base dies, isn't that even going to make them harder to resize the first time?
SOM, I think I understand the thought behind it.. Small base sizes them down a little bit more, making them more flexible for multiple rifles. ...just thinking if it's darn near impossible with a regular sized die, trying to size it down more may be a chore. ...or maybe the dies are different enough in quality that resizing in general is easier?
Are you using a lee shellholder with the lee dies? Sometimes a mis-matched shellholder can cause problems. FWIW I would take a fired case from your rifle, measure it and then size that case. This will at least tell you where you stand with your rifle, ammo and equipment. You don't want the variable of someone elses fired cases influencing things.
It is my understanding that SB dies only squeeze the base a little more and dont have anything to do with the headspace. If the case is too "fat" then a SB die may solve the problem. If you are not bumping the shoulder back far enough, SB dies may not fix that.
I will also bring a Wilson and MO gauge this weekend.
As far as ease of sizing: get some Imperial sizing die wax--wonderful stuff! This will help a great deal in the first sizing of MG brass.
On my range pickups, the first time through is sometimes noticeably harder to resize, once it's done it's done.
The SB dies squeeze the case just in front of the extractor a bit more, AFAICT they don't help with setting the shoulder back.
SoM
I have had similar problems with the Lee dies. Good dies, but for a few dollars more, one can get VERY good dies. Try a set of RCBS dies. Lee may try to make it right, but they may also send you a new out of spec die too. I actually spoke to one of the Lee boys about 3-4 months ago. He told me that my die was not out of spec I had set it up wrong. Somewhere in Lee's literature it actually says that their dies size on the large size of "within spec".
Had the same issue when sizing for my M1. The chamber in the M1 is generous and brass that would not chamber in my Savage 110 (same shoulder issue you are having) would chamber in the M1. But the Lee die sized on average about 5-9 thou over what my new RCBS die sized to. May not seem like a whole lot but it made a friggin huge difference on inserting the loaded clip into the magazine well.
Also, the lee die had a hard time sizing Remington brass consistantly. About every other one would not chamber. The RCBS die works with every piece of brass I throw at it. I don't know if the problem is from internal die flex due to lesser quality steel, tolerances being larger, or just plain ol' "get what you pay for". Either way, the RCBS has produced consistant sizing from day one.
I guess the difference in the cost between dies and good dies is the cost of QC skill. Either that or Lee gets their money's worth out of their die cutters.
SB dies not only squeeze the case down an extra bit (something like 0.002"), but it also bumps the shoulder of the case back. This is important for match chambers as I understand it. My wife's match AR upper would NOT chamber FL-resized brass, even if it was once fired brass through her chamber. In my standard AR, no problems with FL most of the time.
Spit - Sounds like you need the SB die for whatever reason. I assume you're making sure you aren't exceeding max trim length and overall length for the caliber. That can also cause chambering issues.
We can talk about our wonderful reloading experiences this weekend at the IBC!
OK, folks, so you all know, I do this for money, as in Type 06 FFL (ammo manufacturer).
The dies could be the problem, but likely not. Small base dies sometimes help, but, I wouldn't use them unless absolutely necessary. They aren't just for "match chambers", either. They're for returning the base of brass used in machine guns (primarily ,but some semi-autos also cause issues) to return them to the diameter to fit semi-auto rifles (bolt guns usually have enough leverage to not need it, but not always).
The press certainly could cause this. If it's not a O type press (like an RCBS Rockchucker), it could be springing. Once you get to a certain point, you're done.
Now, go back and try it again, and pay close attention to see if the shell holder hits the bottom of the die, while you're sizing a case (you may have already done this, if so, then you already have this info). If it isn't, ans screwing the die in more won't get you there, the problem is your press. Could also be the lube, as this affects the press, by a lack of lube requiring more leverage.
A tidbit of info for all of you.
You get what you pay for. You pay for what you get.
If you're scrimping on money, buy your stuff on eBay (except powder measures and scales, always buy those NEW).
RCBS is good stuff, Redding is even better. Dillon is comparable to them.
Lee makes few tools worth buying. Their decapping die is great stuff, as it usually doesn't break in a Berdan primed case. (AMHIK) The rest of their dies are generally junk. Their presses ARE junk.
Quote from: Nickle on April 09, 2010, 02:16:45 PM
OK, folks, so you all know, I do this for money, as in Type 06 FFL (ammo manufacturer).
Thank god. I don't know how many useless contradictory forum posts on various sites I've waded through. Most of my knowledge has been from trial and error. Doesn't seem to be any really good "Reloading for Dummies" kinda literature out there; that or I wasn't looking hard enough.
Quote
The press certainly could cause this. If it's not a O type press (like an RCBS Rockchucker), it could be springing. Once you get to a certain point, you're done.
What do you mean by springing? I have the cheap-o Lee C-clamp style die. Great for pistol reloading. From what I could tell when I was having issues with FL resizing with Lee dies, the shell holder was hitting the bottom of the die when sizing a round.
Quote
RCBS is good stuff, Redding is even better. Dillon is comparable to them.
Lee makes few tools worth buying. Their decapping die is great stuff, as it usually doesn't break in a Berdan primed case. (AMHIK) The rest of their dies are generally junk. Their presses ARE junk.
I've got the Lee press working fine with the RCBS SB dies. Is there some downside/risk to using the SB when not fully necessary? I guess they work the brass more, reducing the amount of reloads?
Why do folks think just because it says M1, or Lee, or Colt every one is exactly the same? They are not. Similar, within some limits, but very little is the same one example to the next. Same for the reloading tools. There's good and bad in everything. My Pacific (Hornady) 38/357 dies would not put a good crimp on .38 special brass so I had to "grind" a little off the bottom and then they worked great.
My M1A has a match barrel (therefore a "match" chamber) and yet I do not fully resize brass for it and it has always chambered fine. I'll bet other match barreled/chambered M1A's won't chamber my brass (and that's okay by me 'cause it's for my M1A ;))
I have Pacific, RCBS and Lee dies in 30.06, .308 and .223 and so far no issues from any of them.
I have been having some issues with a Lee shell holder (or two) for the .223 Remington (brass doesn't want to go in or out of it.)
I'm not into pretty, I'm into what works for me - so if I had a sizer die that did not fully resize (due to internal length issues) the brass I'd put the bottom of it on a grinder (after removing the decapping pin) and remove a little from the bottom of the die so the shoulder/neck resizing part of the die would be a little closer to the shell holder - if length was the issue.
I'm going to try to get to the range this weekend to try some of my .223 reloads in my newest rifle.
As for presses, I'd recommend the O-type for rifles and the C-type for handguns. Not having that post in the front sure makes it easy to move your hands and brass in/around the shell holder.
I'm going to be disagreeable with the tide of anti-Lee sentiment here.
Blame it on Lee instead of figuring out whats happening on isn't going to help.
I have 4 sets of Lee rifle dies and 1 pistol and haven't run into such problems with them. The exception being the 6.5 carcano shell holder that doesn't correctly fit Prvi brass (replaced with an Hornady shell holder) but at least the Lee die comes with a .268 expander.
My 30-06 FLSZ is the largest Lee die I own; like any 30-06 die it can run into some resistance but sizes them on either the RCBS press or even the small Lee C press. I have FL sized over a 1000 30-06 cases with this set, all range pick-ups, about half military and half commercial.
The low cost (aluminum) "starter" C press is a terrific supplemental press (and portable for the range) so i would never throw it away, but for large rifle I agree with Old Dog - you really want a cast iron O press. (BTW: the Lee Classic Cast suites fine here - I know a SB that uses one to load 50 BMG.)
So, you can blame it all on Lee or attempt to figure out whats going on:
By "not chambering" do you mean not fitting the die or not fitting the rifle chamber?
- If it's the rifle, are you sure your chambering problems are not bullet seating OAL?
If it's the die, it has to be stopping on something:
- Check your trim length before sizing. If they are too long already the neck is stopped on the top of the die, keeping the rest of the brass from entering.
- Check how deep you have the expander/decapper. If it's set in too deep (or shallow) your blocking on the expander ball. Even if you think it's fine try to size a round with the expander assembly removed from the die and see if that goes in all the way.
- Lube, lube, lube. its not a pistol round, and it's not .223. If the stopping contact is on the body of the brass, only lube is going to help.
- The likelyhood of an incorrectly cut die is slim (remember this is CNC controlled.) Disassemble a factory round and see if it fits. If not, call Lee, and they will make good on it.
BTW: where did the brass come from? Could it be pick-ups from someone with trashed headspace or wildcat? (probably not wildcat, because those guys pick up EVERY piece of their brass.)
The Lee bashing seems to be a hobby for some. Someone in castboolit thread pointed out that folks that spend a lot more on gear simply want put down the less expensive alternatives.
Quote from: gunville on April 09, 2010, 07:47:51 PM
My 30-06 FLSZ is the largest Lee die I own; like any 30-06 die it can run into some resistance but sizes them on either the RCBS press or even the small Lee C press. I have FL sized over a 1000 30-06 cases with this set, all range pick-ups, about half military and half commercial. Now that I read your post it reminds me that I often run into civilian brass that is harder to resize than military brass.
The low cost (aluminum) "starter" C press is a terrific supplemental press (and portable for the range) so i would never throw it away, but for large rifle I agree with Old Dog - you really want a cast iron O press. I use my Lee aluminum press for setting up the primer pocket swager. When I run into a case with a really tight pocket I pop it on/in the Lee press w/swager and fix it right up. I also use it to set up the case mouth expander die for pistol cases and I've used it to seat bullets, too. Having two presses on the bench sometimes makes it nice when you don't have to tear down your set up to take care of a problem piece of brass.
So, you can blame it all on Lee or attempt to figure out whats going on:
By "not chambering" do you mean not fitting the die or not fitting the rifle chamber?
- If it's the rifle, are you sure your chambering problems are not bullet seating OAL? One of us "old guys" should have already mentioned this. Good add.
If it's the die, it has to be stopping on something:
- Check your trim length before sizing. If they are too long already the neck is stopped on the top of the die, keeping the rest of the brass from entering. I didn't think of this one either, never saw it before.
- Check how deep you have the expander/decapper. If it's set in too deep (or shallow) your blocking on the expander ball. Even if you think it's fine try to size a round with the expander assembly removed from the die and see if that goes in all the way. another one I didn't think of before and I have seen this one.
- Lube, lube, lube. its not a pistol round, and it's not .223. If the stopping contact is on the body of the brass, only lube is going to help. Yeah, I use lots of lube, lots and a tube of RCBS lube still lasts thousands of rounds. You want to know what enough lube will do for you? I actually have less trouble resizing most .308 or 30.06 brass than I do resizing 9mm brass with a carbide die (I thought I was going to break the press of the table a few times when I was working through my first batch of 9mm brass).
- The likelyhood of an incorrectly cut die is slim (remember this is CNC controlled.) Disassemble a factory round and see if it fits. If not, call Lee, and they will make good on it.
BTW: where did the brass come from? Could it be pick-ups from someone with trashed headspace or wildcat? (probably not wildcat, because those guys pick up EVERY piece of their brass.)
The Lee bashing seems to be a hobby for some. Someone in castboolit thread pointed out that folks that spend a lot more on gear simply want put down the less expensive alternatives.
Like I said, some things here I'd never seen before but good to keep in mind. Good post gunville.
The Lee bashing seems to be a hobby for some. Someone in castboolit thread pointed out that folks that spend a lot more on gear simply want put down the less expensive alternatives.
[/quote]
Hello All; Facts are facts, its not a hobby, it is a statement. Do not take it personal. Those who do not care for the Lee brand and the lack of quality, quality control, have learned that good tooling gives accurate results time after time...These tools are a joy to use, Some of the company`s who have made High Quality precision loading tools are no longer with us, like the Star progressive. These company's have been replaced by cheap imitations, (Learn to know the Difference, its a skill to be learned)..
My Passion is shooting, and reloading. Quality and Accuracy, There is nothing else.... We are after the same thing.
Pappy
There are quality problems with not just Lee, but RCBS, Lyman, etc.
Maybe Redding alone shines here.
When I take apart a Lee sizing die, the thing is mirror polished, made of high quality steel, and the cases it produces are to SAMMI specs. These are CNC produced - the likelyhood of having one out of spec is slim.
Some of the features are even neat - the decapping/expander setup for one. I've only ever had to replace one decapping pin. (Wish I could say that for my RCBS dies.) And that was replaced free by Lee.
Now I decap with the universal decapper so I don't have to worry about decapping pins in my other dies.
The Lee dies are not perfect - I'm replacing the "lock" rings with HDNY versions because I don't trust them to stay put.
The Lee dies are not compeition dies, but they don't claim to be. They are not for ammo manufacturing, but they don't claim to be.
But for the reloader/hunter/shooter - these dies get the job done, and leave a lot of coin for components.
This thread has had me thinking and noticing things in the old reloading shed the last couple of days. Yesterday I realized my Pacific dies have no rust on them (the shed is unheated and can be pretty damp at times based on the weather/humitidy). That industrial chrome finish on the Pacific (Hornady) dies must be working. My Lee dies rust (on the outside only so far). I spray them with rem-oil after scrubbing the rust off with 3n1 oil and steel wool but they tend to rust some anyway. They don't seem to be rusting inside, just on the outside. I need to dig my RCBS X-dies out and take a look at them today.
The amount and type of lube can have an effect upon how much resizing you obtain with one fixed die position.
Adequate lube yields more brass displacement than inadequate lube. The more resistance the case wall and dies generate, the more effort is wasted in flexure of the press frame, pins, etcetera. The phenomenon you describe is consistent with a lube problem; it shouldn't be that hard to resize the brass. If you're hearing 'squeeking' noises, the lube is inadequate; switch to a different brand or try a bit more of the lube you're using.
(Edit to add: Lube all the way down to the case head; experiment with different amounts and locations of lube. Try a method and see if the results will chamber, stick with the application scheme that works.)
Too much lube, however, will dent the shoulder.
The neck expander may squeek when you remove the case and expand the neck; that's fairly insignificant with respect to case sizing.
A stout press frame, adequate lube, and properly cut dies and shell holders (and a properly cut rifle chamber!) are needed. You can try some of those solutions without spending money. If your rifle has no problem chambering factory ammunition, that would indicate that the chamber is likely OK, but it'd be worthwhile to check your chamber headspace when able and confirm that it's in spec.
Lee will repair or replace your sizing die if you sent it to them.
Quote from: spitstickler on April 09, 2010, 12:21:55 PM
It's definitely not a match chamber and it's 7.62 x 51. All the brass is long but I've always trimmed after I resized. I am sure that a lot of this brass has been fired through mg. Some resize with a normal amount of pressure, but a lot of them are really tight. It makes a lot of noise during the resizing process which I'm not used to hearing. I'm pushing down so hard I'm worried I'll break something on the press (from the Lee kit)
I'm going to borrow a RCBS die this weekend and see if that makes a difference. If that doesn't allow me to resize, maybe I need a press with more leverage? (or a cheater bar... :D jk)
SOM are you using the small base die, or the x-die? (or both)
Just back from IBC... The rifle hasn't had any problems with any factory ammo that I've run through it, so the chamber seems okay. Aromatic has lent me a few gauges, another set of dies, and some of the imperial sizing wax. What I'm experiencing isn't a length issue with the brass keeping it from fully resizing. I've tried resizing some brass that I've already trimmed, but it's still the same.
I haven't had a chance to really get back to it yet with Patriot's day weekend coming up but taking my die apart and giving it a good look inside it looks a little on the rough side to me. If I hold it at the right light like in this photo, I can see the machining marks.
Those dies shouldn't be that rough. Like I said before, invest the 30 dollars on some RCBS dies.
TK
In case the .223 reloading post I type in the other day wasn't seen...
I'd never thought about doing this before but I'm having issues with .223 (now that I have a couple new/different ARs).
I spread lube on my lube pad (RCBS green standard one), Lee lube, smeared it as usual with my finger, laid (counted first) 30 pieces of .223 brass on the pad side by side and rolled them back and forth. I put the Lee .223 resizing die in and ran 10 pieces of brass through it. Not hard to resize, wiped them off and set them aside. I took the Lee die out and put the Pacific .223 resizing die in and ran 10 pieces of brass through it. Man were they hard to resize. I thought I was going to twist that big RCBS press off the top of the bench. I wiped them off and put them aside. The I took the Pacific die out and screwed the RCBS X die .223 resizing die into the press. Ran 10 more pieces of brass through it and it took about the same effort as with the Lee die. I wiped the lube off them and ran each one through the new carbine. No problem, in/out. The cases run through the Pacific die chambered but 3 or 4 of them were a little sticky coming out. The cases run through the Lee die were a mess. Only about 3 or 4 of them were easy to extract and some wouldn't completely chamber.
I didn't think I'd see that much difference from die to die. The Pacific die (by the way) was used for years to reload ammo for my Rem. M700 varmint special and my Ruger mini14 with no issues. The Lee dies had worked for my brothers Savage varmint rifle and my vARmint rifle.
The dies can make a big difference - this isn't saying any of the dies are "bad" just that rifle chambers are different and the resizing die you have may not work for that rifle.
Good luck with yours.
Again, most chambering problems are OAL, or maybe primers not seated correctly (you removed the crimp from the LC's?)
Generally autoloaders have generous chambers. Military designs even more so. There is a difference between 308 SAAMI and 7.62Nato: surplusrifle says "The .308 go-gauge is 1.6300, the .308 no go-gauge is 1.6340[I Think This Should Read 1.6400.] The 7.62 go-gauge is 1.6350, the 7.62 no go-gauge is 1.6405." The 308 SAAMI drawing states chamber headspace at 1.630/1.640 min/max. I'm not sure what you are actually measuring with the Hornady gauge, but it's possible you're in spec.
Can you chamber the sized brass without a projectile? (Sized using the Lee directions)
BTW: What shellholder are you using?
What is the rifle?
The rifle is a Saiga 308 (ak action made in the Izhmash factory in Russia) Nato chamber.
Crimp removed & primers seated just below flush. It's definitely not OAL, it's the shoulder for sure. Using a #2 Lee shell holder that came with my original dies. I double checked and it's the correct one.
Aromatic has lent me a set of of Forster dies and some imperial sizing wax and that has helped a lot. Plus a Wilson Gauge and a modified Wilson Gauge that has a spin down component that reads in thousands. Still experimenting, but so far 2 of 3 that I've resized have fit in the gauge correctly. This is all military brass and I'm pretty sure a good portion of it was fired from a MG. Some of it is still really difficult to resize. I'm getting some flex in my table so I'm going to move my press to a heavier duty table top and try again.
-=-=-=- update -=-=-=-
A little more lube and different table top makes things even easier. No problems resizing the rest of a test batch, other than I'm still getting .009 variance after resizing 29 pieces of brass.
8 won't chamber, (either .006 or greater over. A few of them measure ok on the shoulder but have a dinked rim that won't let them fit in the regular Wilson gauge)
13 chamber easily (.000 to .003 over. 2 of which are .002 too short and the rim falls below the 2nd edge on the gauge)
8 are tight/borderline (.004 to .005 over)
My Lee press is an O-frame, but maybe there is enough slop in the double threaded top piece that holds the die or something.
All of the factory ammo I have measured +002 on the modified gauge I have borrowed. Should I be getting this much variance? Just guessing I would think between a couple of thousands would be the norm, but I'm fairly new at this.
Shoulder measurements
-002 -001 0 +001 +002 +003 +004 +005 +006 +007
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1 1 2 3 5 3 5 4 3 1
Should not be that much variance in shoulder length. I use lots of Lee products but I don't have a Lee press. It seems something is moving during the resizing process. The die itself is a solid compact piece of hardened steel that shouldn't vary in size under pressure. Your press on the other hand might be flexing diagonally while the shell is being pressed into the die. Try your dies and lube on a friends press and measure the results then compare. When you get the sizing problem figured out let me know how your Siaga does with reloads. I'm a big fan of the AK and I am considering getting one myself. Hope this helps...wolfman
Last time I prepped 556 brass I got several hundred within -0.002 to -0.004. My last suggestion is to leave the brass in the shell holder and size the brass twice while pausing at the end of the stroke.
I've actually ran some of these through two or three times. Some of them it helped, and some it didn't. I may try to anneal a small batch of case necks and see if that makes any difference. I'm almost betting that it's down on the bottom end of the brass where it's thicker that is causing the problem though, so annealing the top probably won't make a difference.
Other than buying another set of dies... maybe the small base RCBS or trying on a different press, I'm about out of ideas too.
---update----
ok.. maybe I'm starting to get it down. I went really slow on a batch of 20 and was able to get them within .004 thousands, with only a few of them having to be run through more than once. It seems narrowed down to a lube issue now. Using the imperial sizing wax with my fingers, I think I wasn't getting a consistent amount on each piece of brass. I made triple sure this time i lubed heavily all the way down on each piece and held down the press arm for a good 5 count on each one. I wonder if I used my lube pad if that would help me get the lube consistent? May have to try that tomorrow.
I recently discovered Frankford Arsenal case lube from Midway. It is an alcohol based wax in a pump spray bottle. I just dump my brass in an old sugar cookie tin and give them a few good squirts then roll them around a bit. While they are still wet take them out of the tin and place them neck up in a reloading tray so air can get around them and evaporate the alcohol. As I am picking them up I make sure the neck has some lube on it. I don't work for Midway or Frankford Arsenal, I just really like this stuff. The small base die might also solve your problem, I have to size with a RCBS X-die when loading for my M1A. That thing is brutal on brass. Keep plugging away and you will get it figured out...wolfman
Not sure but I wouldn't think the Saiga (even in 308) is chambered that tight as to want an SB die.
The saiga 308 is brutal itself on brass - the saiga-12 forum guys line the rcvr cover with rubber door guard.
spitstickler - are you able to get the contact between the die and the shell holder (are you using the Lee or the borrowed forster dies?)
I thought I read someplace about the 1-1/4 bushing having too much play in the challenger O press - maybe that is what's giving you issues. I think the fix was permanently securing the bushing (giving up on the quick change ever using LARGE dies with that press.)
Hi Spit,
Just out of curiosity, what are the cases gaging before you size them?
First, put it all through a full length sizing die.
next put it all through a small base sizing die.
Lotsa lube!!!
Patience!!
Look at it carefully ina case length gage'
That Lake City brass is tougher than woodpecker lips! Ya gotta be patient with it but it's worth the work.
RCBS is made in China. Take a close look at the Dillon and Lee stuff.
Good luck. O0
Quote from: gunville on April 25, 2010, 02:48:57 AM
Not sure but I wouldn't think the Saiga (even in 308) is chambered that tight as to want an SB die.
The saiga 308 is brutal itself on brass - the saiga-12 forum guys line the rcvr cover with rubber door guard.
spitstickler - are you able to get the contact between the die and the shell holder (are you using the Lee or the borrowed forster dies?)
I thought I read someplace about the 1-1/4 bushing having too much play in the challenger O press - maybe that is what's giving you issues. I think the fix was permanently securing the bushing (giving up on the quick change ever using LARGE dies with that press.)
I'm using the Lee O press that comes with the anniversary kit with Aromatic's Forster dies.
I'm betting your right about the bushing. JB weld might fix it, but I think I may just buy a better press and use this one for decapping, etc.
Quote from: Aromatic on April 25, 2010, 10:29:42 AM
Hi Spit,
Just out of curiosity, what are the cases gaging before you size them?
i just measured about 20 cases. The vast majority of them were .016 -.021. I found one that measured .010, and a couple at .013 & .014.
I've refined my lube and sizing "technique" enough now that I'm able to get most of them within three thousands now. From .001 to .003 for the majority and some go easier than the rest down to .000 on the gauge. I think this press just has too much slop in it. I moved my setup on on the back porch this weekend in the shade and with the bright sunlight shining on the back fence I could definitely see a really small sliver daylight on the the ones that were .002 and .003 out. I guess I just couldn't see it inside the house. However, at this point the press didn't have anything else left in it. Running each piece of brass 2 or 3 times, I could shrink it by another thousandth or so, but it sure is tedious. Lube, size, wipe down, measure, re-lube, size, wipe down, measure, etc.
Based on the ones that aren't as far out to begin with and size easy, I'm sure the die is set at .000. However, I just can't get it to go down all the way on the majority of them. And, I am using a ton of lube now also. I have to take the die apart every 30 or so when I start getting lube dents, and I'm careful not to get any on the shoulder, but there's so much on the case it finds it way up there.
That sounds like its more work and lube than its worth, and you're working the brass quite a bit.
That's the "Challenger" press. I took a look after posting and found the reference in the reviews for the press on midway. The guy said he tightened the bushing another half-turn. Its probably worth a call to Lee.
There's a lot of food for thought in this thread. I'd never considered that a press could be part of a resizing issue. My first (and oldest) press is an old Pacific "C" type press. I used it for everything and never had an issue (I even resized 30.06 cases with split/torn necks into .308 brass a few times). My second press was a used RCBS "O" type press. Both are cast iron, not aluminum (yeah, I'm one of those "steel and wood" guys for the most part).
I can see an aluminum press flexing more than a cast iron press but wonder if it would also be more likely to stretch and/or crack with less rounds through it.
Those case checker things might be okay (I bought one for 30.06, I think) but don't really use it. Until this last little .223/AR15 issue I'd never had a problem with a piece of resized brass not chambering in a rifle. A lot of reloading is really about fitting the reload to YOUR rifle, as each rifle can be very different from another one of the same type.
I don't know if a set of headspace gauges would help in determining whether the issue was chamber length or diameter in one or more parts of the chamber. Remember that stuff you could melt and pour into the chamber to check the dimensions of your rifle's chamber? I wonder if a cast from that stuff would fit into the case checking "die" or if it would tell you anything useful? Hey, was that stuff called "cerro safe" or something like that?? I can't quite rememeber.
Yeah, OD, the stuff you are thinking of is indeed called Cerrosafe. It comes in 1/2lb or 1lb ingots, melts at an extremely low temperature, and gives an excellent representation of the chamber of your rifle. The cheapest I have found it is $25/lb, from http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/4,1143.html
Any semi-competent gunsmith should have a chamber gauge for .308, and they aren't exactly hard to use.. This will at least tell you if your chamber is within spec.
Once you have ruled out the chamber as being the culprit, which, IMO, is the least likely of all possible causes, you can start looking at your reloading setup.
A case gauge is a reloaders friend, as it allows you to manufacture ammo that meets SAAMI specifications, and will allow your ammo to chamber in any rifle chambered for that cartridge. If you only have one rifle of that size ammunition, then it is not as significant, and not sharing your ammo with friends also mitigates these potential issues.
Doing this (making ammo to SAAMI specs) does negate some of the benefit to reloading- you are no longer making ammo that is tailor-made to your rifle, but instead sizing the brass to fit some middle-of-the-road chamber, which will end up having loose tolerances.
YOU need to decide which is more important for you- having ammo that is 100% reliable in any rifle chambered for it, or having ammo that is tailor-made for your rifle, but may or may not function in other rifles.
I have chosen to make ammo that will fit in any rifle chambered for it, thus alleviating the "which rifle did I make this lot for" question years down the road.
Well, I got a set of RCBS small base dies in the mail today and gave them a whirl. Same deal... closest I could get was around .004 in variance. I tried it without all the guts inside the die as well. Same thing again. I'm thinking t's gotta be the press.
I had this problem back in the 70's when I first started loading. I was using a lyman C press and it was flexing enough that the very bottom of the case, close to the rim and was being sized unevenly. You said you have an O press it may be flexing to one side, watch it as you reach the bottom of the stroke and see if it is even all the way around, your die has to touch the shell holder when resizing. if that isn't it I would say your chamber is too tight.
JG
Just to follow up on this, as many of you indicated, the press was indeed the culprit in this situation.
A new Forster co-ax solved all the problems for me and is very consistently resizing my brass now.
Thanks to all who helped me through this. Always something new to learn. O0
I got started reading this thread and couldn't wait to find out how this mystery was resolved. A real page turner, so to speak.
Going from a Lee to a Forster press is a big jump. I guess the lesson learned is that it can be less expensive to buy quality tools from the outset. It's just hard to know whether you're paying more than necessary to accomplish the task at hand.
I'm a new reloader too, and have bought twice more times than I care to admit. Now I find myself defaulting to the more expensive option to avoid buying twice - at least that's how I justify it when my wife questions the price tag.
I found a great resource for reloading that includes advice regarding the various equipment options - Handloading for Competition by Glen Zediker. I wish I had found it before I started gearing-up.
Hey, Spit...
Glad to hear you got things sorted out. I'm been reading along and holding back comment, waiting to see what turned up.
was a little concerned, since I'm fairly sure that's the brass you got from me. More so because I have yet to start processing the portion of that brass that I held back for myself. Now I know what not to do.... O0
BTW, could you shoot me a PM regarding that really sweet brochure POP was waving around at WSMR?
Regards,
Longshot
Glad you got it figured out Spit. Sometimes you just have to have the right tools for the job ;)
Quotei just measured about 20 cases. The vast majority of them were .016 -.021. I found one that measured .010, and a couple at .013 & .014.
Are the numbers you give from cases shot from your rifle?
I don't like buying twice either but no regrets in this situation. As far as Lee equipment goes, I'm very thankful that they offer a low-cost alternative to get started with reloading. If the initial cost would have been much higher and without a mentor to guide me when I was starting out, I probably would have never started reloading. LEE doesn't make the best stuff, but with their kit, a set of dies, components, and reloading manual, I was able to try reloading for under $300.
The kit served me well and has reloaded some extremely accurate .223 ammo for my AR. However, I know now that with the inexpensive price there are limitations in capability. Once I get to a point where I have replaced everything in the LEE kit, I will probably give it to someone else who wants to give reloading a try.
Quote from: douglas34474 on June 04, 2010, 09:24:09 AM
Quotei just measured about 20 cases. The vast majority of them were .016 -.021. I found one that measured .010, and a couple at .013 & .014.
Are the numbers you give from cases shot from your rifle?
No, those numbers are from what I received it... Once fired.
Quote from: Longshot on June 04, 2010, 12:50:13 AM
Hey, Spit...
Glad to hear you got things sorted out. I'm been reading along and holding back comment, waiting to see what turned up.
was a little concerned, since I'm fairly sure that's the brass you got from me. More so because I have yet to start processing the portion of that brass that I held back for myself. Now I know what not to do.... O0
BTW, could you shoot me a PM regarding that really sweet brochure POP was waving around at WSMR?
Regards,
Longshot
Hey Longshot! Yes, it is that batch of brass that I'm finally getting around to messing with. No worries here. I'm still working on finding "the" load for my rifle, but I imagine this batch of brass is going to last me a loooong time.
Quote from: Aromatic on June 04, 2010, 09:00:22 AM
Glad you got it figured out Spit. Sometimes you just have to have the right tools for the job ;)
Special thanks to you, Aromatic for lending me dies, tools, etc. The Mo's gauge is awesome! (I still need to catch that guy that makes them and get one for 30.06, .223 and for .308.) Much easier to use than than the Hornady headspace kit that attaches to your calipers, and more consistent on the readings as well.
I've attached a couple of pics of the different gauges used throughout the process. I'd never heard of the Mo's gauge until Aromatic hooked me up. A super handy tool, that's easy to use and gives you a specific number in thousands to measure cartridge headspace.
good to hear you got it figured out.
Its funny how some "stuff" works great for some rifles but not for others. Who do you blame, the "stuff" or the rifle?
Quote
I don't like buying twice either but no regrets in this situation. As far as Lee equipment goes, I'm very thankful that they offer a low-cost alternative to get started with reloading. If the initial cost would have been much higher and without a mentor to guide me when I was starting out, I probably would have never started reloading. LEE doesn't make the best stuff, but with their kit, a set of dies, components, and reloading manual, I was able to try reloading for under $300.
The kit served me well and has reloaded some extremely accurate .223 ammo for my AR. However, I know now that with the inexpensive price there are limitations in capability. Once I get to a point where I have replaced everything in the LEE kit, I will probably give it to someone else who wants to give reloading a try.
I stand by Lee's products for the novice reloader. I think their C presses are probably fine for pistol rounds (at least it has so far in my .38 cowboy reloading). Great cheap way to get the handle on the process of reloading. Given your problems and my own with Lauren's match AR, I would say that rifle reloading (at least for bottlenecked cartridges) requires higher end presses.
Quote
Special thanks to you, Aromatic for lending me dies, tools, etc. The Mo's gauge is awesome! (I still need to catch that guy that makes them and get one for 30.06, .223 and for .308.) Much easier to use than than the Hornady headspace kit that attaches to your calipers, and more consistent on the readings as well.
I've attached a couple of pics of the different gauges used throughout the process. I'd never heard of the Mo's gauge until Aromatic hooked me up. A super handy tool, that's easy to use and gives you a specific number in thousands to measure cartridge headspace.
I would be interested in ordering some of those too for .223 and 30.06.
Quote from: spitstickler on June 04, 2010, 12:23:33 PM
I don't like buying twice either but no regrets in this situation. As far as Lee equipment goes, I'm very thankful that they offer a low-cost alternative to get started with reloading. If the initial cost would have been much higher and without a mentor to guide me when I was starting out, I probably would have never started reloading. LEE doesn't make the best stuff, but with their kit, a set of dies, components, and reloading manual, I was able to try reloading for under $300.
Yeah, same here. If it wasn't for some old farts (mentors) in my area I won't know about much. Still a baby when it comes to reloading. But I'll say heck yeah as to making some accurate ammo. Got some reloads now that are better than even Black Hill's so called match grade. We had done some .223 jacketed but with soft nose and it fed with no problems. Good expansion, even better than hollow point, and talk about accurate, sheesh. Great stuff.
Now if I could only get enough 308 brass dangit.
Oh, and no offense to old farts, I'm one myself.
Hi spitstickler,
I have been following this thread with much interest as well. I'll be loading 7.62x51 for my M1A as soon as I get my hands on some brass. Like you were in the beginning, I am using mostly Lee equipment. Currently loading only .303 right now and as others have said, producing some real nice rounds with it!
So if your problems have been largely solved, may I shamelessly hijack your thread!?
Questions;
I'm looking at the Forster Redding small base die, any experience with this die?
What about Machine gun once fired LC '05 brass? I know where some is available for a reasonable price.
Like the rest of us, I'm just trying to get the most for my $$ ^-^
(if this thread hijack is not acceptable, I'll move it or start over!)
Thanks
Andy
If I may...
I use the SB die for .223 AR reloading and find it to be most excellent. (After using a regular .223 sizing die that after sizing brass they would not chamber in my rifle.)
MG brass is okay to use...BUT a SB die is recommended for resizing as the MG brass expands because the chamber on them is larger than a rifle. This is what I read, I have no firsthand experience with it. Nor with a MG...durn it. Too expensive for this working mans wallet. Tho' I did get to shoot a WW1 water cooled MG at the range once. Waaaaaaaaay too much fun. Winter time and the guy filled it with H2O and anti-freeze. Trouble was the seals leaked, so as it fired pink spray flew everywhere.
not every chamber is the same. My M1A has a match barrel (and therefor most likely a "match" chamber) and standard dies have always worked for it. I've picked up machine gun brass and resized it for my rifle in my Pacific (Hornady) dies.
If you need small base dies then you need them but not all rifles do need them. I have no experience with them but some folks say if you don't need them you are shortening the life of your brass because they size smaller than necessary for your chamber. Who knows for sure, just what I read.
Folks also say you won't get the life out of machine gun brass you will out of rifle brass but I've not had that problem. After my recent experience with the new AR I'm going to start using my RCBS X dies. The brass resized with them chambers in the new AR when the brass resized in the Pacific and Lee dies has several failures to chamber out of every batch. Many folks are also reporting increased case life when using the X-dies.
Many of us older reloaders learned the hard way as I said I started out with a lyman C press and it did okay till I got to the 7.62. I used small base dies in my M1A for several years and then tried regular dies and they did okay. The smaller you size the brass the less times you will load them. If you use a 30 cal necking die on cases fired in your rifle they will last much longer, but they will not work in any other rifle unless it's chamber is the same as yours or smaller. I have a 300 Win Mag. 700 Remington that is what I do to it.
Your not hijacking info here, us old timers are passing it on so you don't make the same mistakes we did. We have been to the school of hard knocks, learned the hard way. They didn't have internet when I was young ( I know Gasp!!) reloaders were few and far between, so you had to read or figure out the hard way. So we pass this on to others to save you time and money, I too have learned a lot here on the forum. The internet is good stuff a lot better than smoke signals.
JG
Thanks guys for the replies.
I think I'm going to throw $15 on the roulette wheel and start with the Lee die. If it doesn't work, I'll only be out that much, and after case length and headspace gauges it shouldn't hurt too bad...hopefully... ???
As spitstickler did, I'll post my progress and mistakes here (not that spit made any mistakes, but I'm bound to!)
Andy
Don't stop if the cases don't fit the gauge....try them in your rifle anyway. They might work whether they fit the gauge or not.
I already know that in my M1A and my son's M14S reloads done with the Lee dies set we have work just fine - but I went out and bought one of the little gauges anyway just to see what I learn from it - will the rounds fit? I don't know yet, gotta go try some.
I use a lot of Lee dies and they work well for me.
JG
Personally, I had bad experiences with the 7.62 machine gun brass - lots of case separations - about one in fifty on the first reload. I found some once fired Lake City "sniper" brass online and it has worked great, but a bit more expensive. I think I paid $180 for 500 cases. The fellow said it had been fired from M14's, which of course have tighter chambers than the MG's. Problem solved. I should have bought more at the time, because now he's out of stock.
Regarding the Lee dies - I can get a Redding two die set for $35, so why not? To me, the extra $20 is well worth it. Even though I enjoy putzing around with handloading, I don't consider the savings worth the time and frustration.
Pretty much everything discussed on this thread has been happening to me over the past couple of weeks. (All but the pink spray from a machine gun) I have been resizing once fired LC brass from Wideners ( I am guessing MG brass) with standard full length dies from RCBS. All of this was being done without a case gauge, which I ordered yesterday along with a set of RCBS small base dies. I am very new to reloading for the M1A and the rifle I have has a Criterion NM barrel and the chamber was finished and headspaced to the bolt during assembly by LRB. So pretty much after a crap load of FTE and short stroking and second guessing the gas system and op rod alignment............it looks like user/reloading error has come into play. It has been a learning experience which oddly enough I have enjoyed. The LC brass sounds like it is prone to memory retention and from what I understand machine gun chambers are huge compared to what I have so I may need to be resizing the brass a couple of times before it will accept the new dimensions, which I will now be checking with a LE Wilson cause gauge. I hope that this will remedy the problem. Thanks to all who have passed on the knowledge to rookies like myself.
I'm no expert, but I read everything I could find when troubleshooting my issues. One resource I found to be helpful was Zediker's Reloading for the Match M14 - http://www.zediker.com/downloads/14_loading.pdf
Read the section on "Powder and Port Pressure." Zediker has some definite opinions about which powders are suitable for the M14. For example, though I've heard people recommending Varget, Zediker believes it burns too slow to work well with in the M14.
Lots of other good information in there as well...
Roger on the Zediker's manual, I downloaded that one a couple of weeks ago from TFL. Lot's of great info in that one. Thanks for the input. O0
+1 to those who recommend Small Base RCBS dies for semi-automatic rifles. Regular RCBS or Lee dies work fine for me if I am reloading for bolt, lever, or single shot rifles. However, when I am reloading .223 for my Mini-14 or 30-06 for a Garand, I found out early on that reliable function was occuring only when I used Small Based dies.
Case gauge and dies showed up Friday. I gauged the remainder of the loaded lot and found more than half had the heads stick out beyond the top step! Ouch, good thing I didn't get a big boom on some of them. It must of been close to the danger zone of the bolt not locking in place. The bright side is my bullet puller will see some good use tonight and I will be running ALL my sized brass through a case gauge from here on out. Only takes a second and is well worth it to me. Thanks, Reveille.
Progress as promised;
Got my tools and brass (Lee dies, Lyman case gauge and LC '05 MG brass). While sizing, I wipe clean and run through the gauge about every 3rd or 4th piece of brass, finish the lot then wash and tumble. When clean, I check every piece in the Lyman gauge then move on to trimming. After chamfering and de-burring, every piece goes through the gauge again for trim length (the pilot on my trimmer leaves the brass at about 2.010", right between the two steps on the Lyman gauge).
I should be getting some 147 gr pills this week, so I'll build a few dummy rounds to check in my rifle and report back. So far...so good!
I believe you were promised some problems? Well here goes; I was down at my local range just hanging around and 7th stepping, and I found a few LC '90 cases. I didn't have my brass yet so I took them home to "experiment" with my new tools. I de capped them, cleaned them up, lubed them and sized them (once each). Wiped the lube off of the first one, popped it in the gauge and ...too long. I promptly ran it up into the sizing die again when I remembered that I had wiped the lube off of it! :o STUCK!
I got the die out (case still inside) and beat the expander/decapper to dislodge the case. Got it out but bent the expander in the process :-[. A call to Lee, $10 and 4 days later (I had my brass by then) I was back in business!
Thanks again for all the advice in this thread, I'll post more when it happens.
Andy
Quote from: artkat2 on June 30, 2010, 03:05:42 AM
I promptly ran it up into the sizing die again when I remembered that I had wiped the lube off of it! :o STUCK!
I got the die out (case still inside) and beat the expander/decapper to dislodge the case. Got it out but bent the expander in the process :-[
Andy
I had one stuck so bad in my Lee die, that I pulled the rim off it trying to pry it out. I finally got it out by putting the die (with the stuck case in it) in the freezer for a couple of hours. When it was good and cold, I stuck it back in the press, and just a tap or two with the hammer on the decapping pin and it popped right out of there. I'd read about this elsewhere and they were saying that brass shrinks a little more than steel when it's frozen.
The only die I would recommend if your using a std chamber is the Dillon dies. When a case gets stuck you simple take the die apart and drive out the case. AND Dillon has a No BS replacement guarantee. Anytime you brake something, call them and they will ship it free and it only ever took them 3 or four days to get it to me. BTW...the last 308 case that stuck in my Lee die is still stuck in that die. That's when I bought the Dillon dies and then an RL550 press. I took this advise from Jerry Micilik.
Update: It is official, resizing and verifying with the case gauge not only remedied the problem but also increased the accuracy. Newbie reloaders, what can you do with em? **) Thanks for all of your tips. O0
Here's a hint: Always use the same brand of case holder and die. They do vary from brand to brand, but using the same brand holder and die will minimize problems. Not sure who made your case holder? Get a case holder with the same brand as your dies. Then you'll know for sure.
I use only RCBS so I don't have the problem, but I have seen loaders grab unknown brand case holders out of a box and wonder why they have erratic groups or worse.
Reading thru all 4 pages of this thread sure makes me miss my reloading bench which I had to dismantle in June because we moved and have not been able to reconstruct due to temporary lack of space. But to make a short story long...I too started out on the Lee Anniversary kit with my first reloading efforts, a sporterized .30/40 Krag. Eventually got Lee dies for all I shoot, largest being .44 Mag HG and .300 Wby rifle. Eventually acquired a Lee Classic Cast single stage which I have used for all rifle reloading (two .250 Sav, two .300 Sav, .30/40 Krag, multiple .30/06 bolts, .30/06 M-1, .45/70, .35 Rem, .308 for a BAR carbine which in a weak moment I gave to my son-in-law, and the aforementioned .300Wby which has put several elk and moose in the freezer) and a Lee Classic Cast Turret Press for various and sundry handguns (.38s, .357s, .44mags, .45ACPs), again using all Lee dies. Never had die issues but decided to migrate away from the Classic Cast Turret press when a PLASTIC wear part cratered after a 1,000 round .45 ACP marathon. Saw a lot of the negative Lee comments too and didn't think too much of them until this experience which opened my eyes to the amount of pot metal and plastic in a lot of Lee's products. Sold the Turret Press and bought a Hornady Lock-Load-AP which still sits in the box awaiting completion of the new shop building which will house the reloading bench. Looking forward to loading more .30/06 for the M-1 along with getting started on .308 for an M-1A and R-25 using small base RCBS X-Dies also. Looked very hard at the Dillons but being an accountant by trade, I couldn't make the numbers work. Please feel free to let me know I messed up or pass along any Hornady Lock-N-Load tips. Still have the Classic Cast Single Stage which I have no issues with. My last reloading project before moving was assembling 600 rounds for my CMP M-1 which thus far have functioned flawlessly but after researching I did upgrade to RCBS small base X dies but still using a Lee factory crimp die to apply a very mild crimp. Sorry for taking up so much space describing my Lee experiences but it felt good talking reloading which I cannot wait to get back into.