In a recent post the subject of Berdan vs Boxer primers came up. Why we don't use Berdan primers in the US? It is an interesting question as was noted in that post Berdan primers are an American invention. The obvious answer is we reload and that is one of the primary reasons. I was not aware however, until reading General Hatcher's book, "Hatcher's Notebook," that the Army had tried Berdan primers. Here's the story.
In WW1 Western Cartridge Company had a contract to produce 8mm Lebel for the French using Berdan primers of course. In the post war period du Pont lobbied Frankfort to adopt the Berdan primer. Except that the Berdan does not lend its self to reloading it is superior to Boxer in performance. In the Boxer primer the fire must turn corners to reach the flash hole whereas the fire has a direct path through two holes in the Berdan. Anyway in 1930 ammo using Berdan primers was selected to be used in the National Matches at Camp Perry. These primers were also non-corrosive by the way. It was very hot that year and evidence of excessive pressure was noted fearing the primers were the cause the Army pulled the Berdan primed ammo. Hatcher was out of the country in Europe with the International Rifle Team during the Perry matches and regrets the decision to pull the ammo believing an opportunity was missed.
The information presented here and much more is in Hatcher's book. I highly recommend it if your are like me and can't get enough "gun talk." General Hatcher served in the US Army Ordnance Corps for 41 years seeing first hand the development of US arms during the 20 th century.
Wildman, is the Berdan primers the ones with the two holes in the brass?
since wildman isn't on line and you and I are:
Yes. Berdan primed brass has two small holes 180 degrees apart in the primer pocket. Berdan primers do not have an "anvil" as the "anvil" is part of the brass case itself. The anvil is the piece the primer "cup" contacts when the firing pin hits it. This crushes the priming mixture between the "anvil" and the "cup" to ignite it and fire the powder. Berdan primers are also slightly larger in diameter than boxer primers so you can't remove the anvil in the berdan primer pocket somehow and then use boxer primers.
Quote from: M1A4ME on November 20, 2007, 09:02:13 PM
since wildman isn't on line and you and I are:
Yes. Berdan primed brass has two small holes 180 degrees apart in the primer pocket. Berdan primers do not have an "anvil" as the "anvil" is part of the brass case itself. The anvil is the piece the primer "cup" contacts when the firing pin hits it. This crushes the priming mixture between the "anvil" and the "cup" to ignite it and fire the powder. Berdan primers are also slightly larger in diameter than boxer primers so you can't remove the anvil in the berdan primer pocket somehow and then use boxer primers.
You know, if some company like CCI/Speer/RCBS that made BOTH reloading tools AND primers was to come up with a Boxer primer that had Berdan dimensions PLUS an end-mill plus ctg holder that would allow removal of the Berdan post, I think they might sell a few.
The primers could be made for approximately the cost of Boxer primers (depending on number produced, of course) and the end-mill contraption need not be an expensive item if it was designed to interface with current case trimmers or a home drill press.
M1A4ME gave a great rundown on Berdan. There is a quick
but messey way to decap them without damage to the center
post with water pressure. I think oversize may be part of not
wanting you to reload. I'm fairly certain the twin flash holes
will give a hotter ignition that may be a good thing with slow
burn powder, and unknown with other types. Then there is the
seating depth of the primer and a larger diameter primer punch.
It has the feeling of a bunch of varibles that I don't feel comfort-
able with to save a few cents. It certainly is more time con-
summing should you decide to go there. I know the primers
were available, but most likely a speciality item.
Also the berdan primed cartridges are imported with the exception
of Blazer aluminum case pistol ammo loaded with Berdan SO YOU
DO NOT ATTEMPT TO RELOAD THEM ! You hear all sorts of com-
ments on foreign ammo failures, so there must be some troublesome
imports with not up to our standards stuff. Don't know, but I would
rather not take a chance with the unknown having lived this long
with a few doing stupids!!! ;D Yes, they are more expensive if you
can find them.
of Blazer aluminum cased pistol
raf, a depriming tool is made for berden primers (check under decapping dies at Midway), however, I have never seen any primers for berden cases. Even if I did, I would probably be leary of using them.
smle
Well, I've reloaded with Berdan primers. We quit doing them at the shop, as the reliability is severely reduced. It also is more time intensive, and that comes into play as well.
If you're thinking of reloading Berdan primed cases to save yourself some money, get that right out of your head. Berdan primers, when you can find them, are going to be more expensive than Boxer primers. Better to bite the bullet, and hold out for Boxer primed brass, and stick to reloading that.
Thanks for the good info all.
check this out the brass is tiawan with a boxer flash hole. the primer on the left is a standard win l/r primer. the primer on the right is the primer out of the tiawan brass. the tiawan primer is made with 2 flash holes and is larger dia. than win primers, like a berdan primer. although I have reloaded for years I have never used a berdan primer. I don't know what type of primer this is but I thought it was interesting the way it was made. I hope the pics show up.
Quote from: jpf on November 22, 2007, 04:53:02 PM
check this out the brass is tiawan with a boxer flash hole. the primer on the left is a standard win l/r primer. the primer on the right is the primer out of the tiawan brass. the tiawan primer is made with 2 flash holes and is larger dia. than win primers, like a berdan primer. although I have reloaded for years I have never used a berdan primer. I don't know what type of primer this is but I thought it was interesting the way it was made. I hope the pics show up.
That's just an odd sized Boxer primer. Yes, some Boxer primers have 2 sided anvils instead of 3 sided.
Ok now that I have started looking into this subject I'm starting to find out how deep it goes. Any one have any good sites on primer history? I have checked the norm " Win, ICC, Fed" etc. I'm going to start digging. Need to find info that will brake down the pro's and con's of each type of primer.
I recommend to anyone interested in military small arms that they read Maj. Gen Julian S. Hatchers,"Hatchers Notebook." Hatch's career in army ordnance spanned 41 years. His knowledge of small arms is legendary.
Hatch served as OIC Experimental Dept. Springfield Armory, Chief Machine Gun and Small Arms Section Engineering Div. Ordnance Washington, Director National Rifle Association 1922 to 1946, Editor, "The Dope Bag," Pistol Section, Arms and the Man and the American Rifleman, 1922 to 1933 and on and on and on. The NRA once had a much closer relationship with the services for the development of small arms and ammunition. My the world has changed.
The book had been recommended to me and when I finally got my copy I couldn't put it down. I still use it as reference book. It tells the history of most of the small arms developed in the 20th century. Want to know about primers its there. How about corrosive ammo? Yep that too. How about a some really fun stuff; like what happens when you shoot your rifle straight up? How far does a bullet really go? What happens to your ammo when the temperature changes. It's impossible to list everything here but if there is something you want to know it is probably there.
The book is still available at Amazon.com.
redwolf
http://www.dave-cushman.net/shot/berdanprimers.html
http://www.dave-cushman.net/shot/boxerprimers.html
Be sure to check out the other links to additional info on the pages above.
Thanks M1A4ME good sites.
I found some good info on the sites below too.
http://www.chuckhawks.com/primers.htm
http://members.shaw.ca/cartridge-corner/wrahelp.htm
http://www.jamescalhoon.com/primers_and_pressure.php
http://www.madehow.com/Volume-2/Ammunition.html
Quote from: wildman on November 24, 2007, 10:29:49 PM
I recommend to anyone interested in military small arms that they read Maj. Gen Julian S. Hatchers,"Hatchers Notebook." Hatch's career in army ordnance spanned 41 years. His knowledge of small arms is legendary.
The book is still available at Amazon.com.
Just so everybody knows, this book should be on the bookshelf of EVERY advanced reloader. Nonte's books are another good addition.
If you get these books, many of your questions will get answered.