Project Appleseed

Does any one have any opinions on the dedicated 22 AR's out there? It seems as if the big guys want to get in to the 22 (Colt, S&W) market.

In my opinion -- worth exactly what you paid for it -- a .22 AR is a great training tool.  However, I'd recommend a dedicated rimfire upper mated to a normal AR lower, rather than a mere .22 AR look-alike.  The ones I've seen are OK but lower quality than a real AR, not enough to justify the price in my mind.

There are also .22 conversion kits for AR's.  I've seen three or four at Appleseeds and they've performed pretty well, though the owners said accuracy was mediocre.  The happiest .22 AR shooter I've talked to had a dedicated upper and simply swapped it with his 5.56 upper.  Same stock and cheekweld, same trigger, good performance.

Your mileage may vary. 

QuoteDoes any one have any opinions on the dedicated 22 AR's out there? It seems as if the big guys want to get in to the 22 (Colt, S&W) market.

My Dad and I have S&W M&P 15-22s.  They are dedicated .22s and work exactly like a standard AR but have no forward assist.  They are not gas-operated (recoil from shell ejection operates the bolt) and have no spring/buffer in the buttstock.

Both have been used at ASs in pouring rain (laying on the firing line which became a sandy river), 0 degree temps, and 15 mph wind with dust (coating te gun inside & out).  FTFire issues were due to ammunition and there were not a lot.  FTFeed issues seem to occur wih hollow points (catches on feed ramp I think).  You must also follow the procedure for loading mags so read the owner's booklet if you buy one (improper loading and remington ammo main reaso for FTFeed).  I use CCI round nose (the most reliable I have used so far), anything except Remington seems to work well though.  A Remington misfeed dinged the feed ramp.  I sent it to S&W and had it back repaired within 10 days, no charge except to ship it to them.

I have approx 3,000 rounds through mine and it has never failed me at an Appleseed (400+ rounds/weekend).  That alone would make me buy another.  I have seen quite a few rifles come off the line due to malfunctions of some sort.
I have seen 3 M&P 15-22s so far (6 ASs) none of which have had issues requiring back-ups.

Is it the most accurate rifle out there?  No.  It will be more difficult to shoot a rifleman's score with it than a centerfire.  Centerfires are more accurate, but cost a lot more to shoot.  For $390 to $480 depending on model (difference is no flash supressor vs flash supressor) I feel these are a bargain.  Stock sites are suitable and no other mods are required.

I recommend them.  I could have more to say but need to go.  If you have further questions re the M&P PM me and I will get in contact with you.  Have fun with whatever you buy.

I went to my local gun store today and got to play with a Colt. It was sad. I wouldn't pay half of what they were asking but the S&W seem to have a much better reputation. But I have not had a chance to play with one.

I started thinking about this when I was in Eureka. I dropped into the Marine Recruiting office to do some seeding. The two recruiters there were excited about the idea until I said 10/22. They seemed dismissive of it as being viable learning experience for the pulleys.

I am thinking this would be the way to go for someone who is going into the military to learn with and save some money; they would learn marksmanship as well as the Manuel of Arms for the M-16/M4 family at a discount price. Or this could be an option for instructors to have one along just in case.

Thanks for the opinions and info.

Gents,
   1)  Gun Tests magazine (accepts no advertising) tested both Smith .22 AR15 clone and the Ruger SR22 (10/22 configured to be similar to AR15).  Ought to be able to find article @ GT's site...
   2)  Ruger's msrp is $625...with the Ruger NRA/State Instructor Training Purchase Program, generally appx 1/3 off msrp, cost ought to be somewhere in the $410 neighborhood.  Ruger also offers new "tactical" 10/22VLEH w. 16" tgt bbl and bipod for $344.10 w. purchase program.
   3)  Also FYI Texas outfit, CDNN Sports has Ruger stainless/synthetic stock 10/22 with scope and rings for $239.
Heck of a deal.
Excelsior,
nyrasgt (mad)

The ones that I have fired are fully capable of Appleseed accuracy and are reliable enough to run AQT's.

There are differences in the polymer models to some extent that make one nicer than another (i.e. the M&P allows for AR match triggers whereas the Colt does not IIRC - do your research before buying), but overall they are fine.  These also have a great weight advantage in the standing stages but the potential downside is having a polymer receiver in the case of a catastrophic failure (I know of two via a non-Appleseed trainer and they were "impressive" - these DID NOT happen at an Appleseed FYI).

The dedicated upper AR's have the advantage of using a .22 barrel with twists based on .22 accuracy.  Tactical Solutions and Spikes are both nice but can take some breaking in.  The main issue with them is price ($400-600 just for the upper assembly and bolt carrier group).  That is salty for most.

The conversion kits work well enough as well even though the 1/7-1/9 twist rates are not optimal.  I have seen these on the line and some do superbly and some do fine.  They also can be ammo picky, but that is true of many 22 rifles.

A large portion of these three solutions come railed but do not have sling mounts and so more and more shooters are going to need front end weaver mound sling attachments which is a bummer as they are a bigger investment than $10 sling mounts for the 10/22.

The only other issue is to try and get the shooters to have the shorter magazines rather than the long ones that normally come with the .22 AR's.  Those longer mags present the same monopod issues as 30 round ar mags do.  If the 22 AR's continue to grow on the line I will likely get a handful of the shorter mags to have on hand.  

Personally, I welcome them all and am expect to see more and more of them.  It is a good thing too.  They make a great training platform for the cost conscious.

Check out the March Gun Tests "Firing Line".  A reader wrote in with safety concerns about the M&P firing out of battery (same issue applies to the Ruger).  Long story short...keep it clean.  Dirty chambers are hazardous in a blowback action.  Seems obvious, but...        ???

I have a S&W M&P 15 in 22lr I bought this winter, so far I have had no problems with it.  It shoots good, one of the gun mags reported 1/2 moa at 50 yds with CCI mini mags.  The reciever is built off enough so you cannot change the upper.  it is about $100.00 cheaper than Colt and Colt is reported to have problems with the recievers cracking which I'm sure they would make good but who needs the hassel.
   Everything on the M&P operates just like the AR's as it was designed for the military and police for cheaper training.  Mine hasn't got the grueling AS test yet but it will.  I'm going to loan it to a new shooter and see if they can create a problem with it, if it passes AS shoot, it is good.

JG

 George you hit it on the head the S&W works just like the AR. The charging handle-charges the bolt, Bolt hold open holds the bolt open, and they are in the place they should be.  You can build muscle memory with it, which will work just as well as the real one. At almost a third the price. You can do remedial action drills. Can you do that with a 10/22? Not ones that are worth the time, at least that is what the recruiters are thinking.

I have a very specific application in mind with the AR 22's guys. That is to be able to go to MARINE/ARMY recruiting office and say tell your pulleys to come to this Appleseed and they will learn how to run an AR/M4 and all it will cost them is $20 in 22 ammo. As well as being given the History  ++)  Bring the rifle with you so they can see what you are talking about. This is like waving crack at a crack head. They will eat it up. Just make sure they are cool with it first.

HM, can't say I'd blame them now days if you walked in unanounced with a rifle that looks like an M4 if they shot you. I wish these military posts would have more armed carry than they do.  They are not safe at home anymore!!

JG

 I have not had a chance to shoot the Colt or S&W M&P .22.  I have a dedicated upper AR 15/.22 and it works really well. I have put mine in 4 Appleseed weekends and a week long RBC and it has not failed on me yet.  

You have to keep it clean, after I shoot an Appleseed I have to clean the rifle (which you should do with every rifle).

The 27 round mags are to long. I have some of the 15 round and I like them for prone.

Over all it is a really good set up for Appleseed. You can take just one lower receiver and 2 uppers, one in .22LR and one in a center fire caliber of your choice in case there is a long range available.

     I have the Colt and the S&W.  I use them as cheap trainers for the centerfire they mimick.  The Colt has gotten a bad rap. (Cracked receivers, unreliable, inaccurate) Yes you can crack the receiver if you try to disassemble it without reading the owner's manual first.  (its a tensioned system with the rear receiver pin being the anchor point)  Yes its unreliable if you try to feed it Remington bulk pack.  However, mine now has in excess of 12,000 rounds with no breakage (mostly Federal, but its pretty omnivorous) through it and I haven't disassembled it to clean it yet. (I wanted to see how long it would go before it demands cleaning.)  It will keep 5 rounds on a 1" square at 25 meters all day long with Federal lightnings or Winchester bulk pack.  I can shoot the Appleseed Quick and Dirty AQT and score low 240's consistently.  I have an old Colt 4X scope on the carry handle.  The trigger is heavy, just like a real M4.  The bolt release is non-functional.  The safety rotates 180 degrees to fire.  But, when slung up, it feels just like its 5.56 brother.

     I've not had the S&W for as long as the Colt, but my impressions are that it is equally accurate, just as reliable, cheaper, and the controls more closely mimick the real thing than the Colt. I've left it open sighted,
and can consistently shoot 220's - 230's on the AQT with Federal Lightning.  No breakage or problems yet.  My only criticism is the lack of a front sling attachment point.

     I also have an old Colt .22 conversion kit i've used in a 1/7 twist HBAR Upper.  Worked okay, but accuracy
is mediocre with most brands of ammo.  (probably due to optimal .22 twist is 1/16).

     If you are looking for a trainer for the M4 with the best combo of cost, accuracy, and similarity of controls
I can recommend the Smith.

From something I posted on another site (partly to cover the rifle, partly to generate Appleseed chatter on the site):


Mission: Test M&P 15-22 Rifle for use as AR Trainer and Appleseed LTR
Ammo Tested: .22lr Federal Bulk, .22lr CCI MiniMag, .22lr CCI Standard, .22lr Remington Subsonic
Range: 25 Yards (On reduced side 25 meter Targets)
Testers: Me & The Boy
Shooting Position: Prone with Loop Sling (zip tied on)
Weather Conditions: Beautiful Sunny Day, Some Wind

(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2718/4447793207_996825d4b6_b.jpg)

The LTR Standard to be Measured By:

The basic idea of the Liberty Training Rifle is one that is able to be used for training to a 4 MOA standard and to do so cheaply with .22lr ammo.  The rifle needs to be reliable and accurate to 4 Minutes of Angle (1" @ 25 yards).  Sling mounts are a plus, but plastic ties can suffice.  Any form of sighting system is fine, but peep iron sights are a great way to start.  In this case I will be using a scope which is also common.

10/22's, 597's, Plinksters, and many other rifles fit the bill and do very, very well at events.  They are also great choices due to the fact that you can build 2 of them for the price of one of these M&P's.  This is what my other LTR looks like:

(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2720/4448191897_ca039bcc93_o.jpg)

At the same time, the M&P useful as an AR training tool beyond the LTR standard.

Initial Observations:

The rifle is very light and well balanced.  Since the caliber is .22lr there is no penalty in recoil and the weight will give a real advantage to youth shooters as will the collapsable stock (my 10/22 LTR is too long for The Boy).  Actually, it has just enough recoil to make it "feel" more real than heavier .22lr's.  The controls match an AR well and have well done detail.  One example is the safety markings on the right side which aid Appleseed instructors see that the rifle is on safe when grounded:

(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4068/4447801183_789d9ee170_b.jpg)

And there is an advantage to having round visibility:

(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2716/4447729585_6a0972d3cd_b.jpg)

Each new ammo was used to re-zero the rifle and then a 5 square target was hit with 25 rounds (5 rounds per square) and results recorded.  Results as follows...

1. Federal Bulk .22lr:

Federal is reliable and accurate.  It is super cheap.  It makes a great choice and one that I really hoped would work well.

(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2761/4448564532_2accb06f06_b.jpg)

Result: The rifle zeroed easily and fired without a failure.  The best grouping was 3 MOA and the average was sub 4.  The feel of the shots and the firing was great.  Very comfortable.


2. CCI MiniMag .22lr

(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2715/4448531514_7d30f36fe2_b.jpg)

Result: The minimag outperforms the federal by roughly 1 moa, with the best being 2MOA.  The results are slight and given the cost difference, I would probably use the Federal over the CCI minimag.


3. CCI Standard .22lr

(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2698/4447798675_236401d133_b.jpg)


Result: Wow!  These are my favorite CCI rounds for accuracy and reliability.  Yet again they did me well.  There were no failures and the performance over the Federal was enough to offset the costs.  The ~1.25 MOA group was shot just as the others, from the ground with a sling.  It made me happy even if it was off to the right.


4. Remington Subsonic .22lr

(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4014/4447794801_c6970b4872_b.jpg)

Results: I was unsure whether this ammo would run or not.  It performed accurately, but it did jam more than once.  I hoped that the ammo would run well because I wanted to use it with a suppressor, and perhaps it will run well with a suppressor due to greater blow back.  In this configuration, I would not use the subsonics again.

Conclusions:

1. Reliability: The rifle was plenty reliable for the training it is needed for.  The subsonics were problematic, and unless they improve with a suppressor, I would just leave them in the closet.

2. Accuracy: The ammo was all 4MOA accurate (last group in graph is the average):

(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4063/4448275115_2cc3df6276_o.png)

The CCI standard is still the best I have, but the Federal bulk is also fine and will be bought in great volume now that I know it works well.  I ran a quick AQT before leaving and the rifle passed the test.

3. Overall Use: The rifle is a lot of fun and will make a great training rifle.  Not only will this make a great Appleseed rifle, but it will make a great black rifle trainer for my children, and a great action rifle trainer for me. 

4. Needed Improvements: The main fix I need is a shorter magazine for getting lower in prone.  There is promise of one coming out, but nothing is ready now.  This thread has some great mods that people are doing to shorten them up: (http://smith-wessonforum.com/smith-wesson-m-p-15-22/118174-m-p-15-22-short-magazine-4.html)

(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4041/4449084760_47a37930f2_o.jpg)

I need to do this ASAP.  The rifle comes with 1 mag, I will need to get 3 more and mod two of them.  AIMsurplus also had a sling mount that I ordered which will be in monday.  They sold it with free shipping I might add.

5. Concerns: This thing is plastic.  My main concern is the weaver rail which is hard, but can shave off with harsh treatment.  I had to slide the scope forward during the testing and this became an evident concern.  Easily enough, I will just be careful with it. 

That about covers it.

Techres

I have the Colt.  I consistently shoot ragged hole 5 rd groups with it and have shot some 225+ AQT's and a 232.  I would have got the S&W, but they do not make 10 rd mags for them.  Not good for us CA folks, I've heard they are, but we'll see.  Armscor and CCI mini mags are good, but the bulk stuff was not accurate at all.

Other than it doesn't function exactly like an AR, I like it alot.

Quote from: DesertDog on April 07, 2010, 07:08:12 PMI would have got the S&W, but they do not make 10 rd mags for them.  Not good for us CA folks, I've heard they are, but we'll see. 

DesertDog, that is not correct; there IS a California version of the M&P15-22. It comes with a collapsible stock and a 10 round magazine. They also make a 5 state version to sell in MA, NY, NJ, MD and CT, which also comes with a 10 round mag (and a pinned stock, as these states don't have CA's .22 exemption).

The part number for the CA version is 811032 (http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10001&storeId=10001&productId=760538&langId=-1&isFirearm=Y). (click on the number for the S&W product page)

Quote from: dwarven1 on April 07, 2010, 11:05:13 PM

Quote from: DesertDog on April 07, 2010, 07:08:12 PMI would have got the S&W, but they do not make 10 rd mags for them.  Not good for us CA folks, I've heard they are, but we'll see. 

DesertDog, that is not correct; there IS a California version of the M&P15-22. It comes with a collapsible stock and a 10 round magazine. They also make a 5 state version to sell in MA, NY, NJ, MD and CT, which also comes with a 10 round mag (and a pinned stock, as these states don't have CA's .22 exemption).

The part number for the CA version is 811032 (http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10001&storeId=10001&productId=760538&langId=-1&isFirearm=Y). (click on the number for the S&W product page)

I should have clarifired that you can't get extra 10 rd mags for them, why I don't know.  My local gun shop owner has looked everywhere.

Looks like you can order them directly from S&W for $20 each.

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10001&storeId=10001&productId=763556&langId=-1&parent_category_rn=751003&training=

Quote from: dwarven1 on April 12, 2010, 05:04:28 PM
Looks like you can order them directly from S&W for $20 each.

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10001&storeId=10001&productId=763556&langId=-1&parent_category_rn=751003&training=

Must be new.  Thanks for the link.  My Colt is my most accurate .22, so It'll be a tough decision.

Does anybody know anything about the (new) Ruger SR-22 .22 LR?

Hello,
I'm new to the forum, and only recently took on an orange hat at my last appleseed a week ago.
Just wanted to relay my experience with a dedicated 22lr AR that I've used for all three appleseed weekends I've done since last fall.

My LTR is a dedicated complete Spike's 22lr upper.  Though pricey compared to these new crop of airsoft based ARs like the Umarex built guns/Colts/S&Ws, my upper has performed flawlessly and 100% reliably.  I started buying Spikes uppers since their inception a few years ago when I was disappointed in the function of a drop in Ciener kit. True, some of the earlier uppers were problematic, but they've been quite reliable as of late.  And their customer service is top notch.  And with the availablility of the shorter 10 or 15 round BDM mags, they don't get in the way for prone shooting.
The specs:
-16" Lothar Walther barrel.
-freefloat midlength handguard
-A3 flattop upper with MI BUIS front and rear.  I extended the front sight over the gas block and moved it closer to the muzzle.
-4x ACOG clone
-I dropped a 3# Timney trigger into the lower.

This gun shoots AQTs all day long scoring in the mid 230's. Benched, it shoots sub 1/2MOA with CCI greentag, Eley,  and Wolf german match. 1MOA with federal bulkpack.

So if you have the scratch, don't hesitate to check out the Spikes uppers.

I ordered a couple of the shorty 10-round mags for my M&P 15-22 direct from S & W the last week of April, got an immediate acknowledgement and order number.   O0

Nothing showed up,  :(  so I got concerned and called the customer service line, and gave them my order number.   :sos:

"None have arrived," the man said.  "They're still showing on backorder, expected to arrive before the end of May."  Hmm.

The good news is, they're not lost in the mail.   8)  The bad news is, that's less than stellar service from S & W.  No hint, when I ordered, that there would be any delay in completing the transaction.   !@#) &)  Nor any promise that if they were further delayed, I'd be notified.   !@#) !@#)

But I guess the news for everybody else is, that there is no longer any mystery about why no one can find them in a store or in any of the catalogs.  Whichever subcontractor (I'm assuming it's a sub) is making them, is behind on deliveries.  We all hope that this will be resolved, like William F Buckley Jr. used to say, in due course.

My credit card bill is due any day, and we'll see if they've billed that yet ... .

I've got the S&W 15-22, and I really like it. I've not had any problems with mine. My brother had a couple problems with his. I think it fired out of battery, and had one other failure. I think it shredded the .22 case. He sent it back and they fixed it, and he hasn't had more problems since. Make sure you're wearing eye protection. -Cheeks