Being a new Instructor in Training I still will figure out several issues over the next year or so but one thing became very apparrent to me this last weekend in Laramie. Loaner rifles may be at the top of the Instructor in Training list. The young man with the 2 single highest and 3 of the 5 highest scores this weekend did it with a rifle I loaned him when I and the Shoot Boss decided his front sight was seriously canted. One of the new Riflemen did it with a rifle Risky loaned him and some of the folks knocking on the door did it with rifles Clodhopper loaned them. ++)
As instructors we tend to collect 10/22
Is it insider trading if I buy stock now ;)
G.B.
I did not even own a 10/22 when I started all this. I do not even like them. Now I have 3. Ruger should do a story on the durability of these. I wonder who has the most lent out 10/22 out there with out a malfunction. Since the AS last weekend, all 3 are broken. One the trigger wont reset, the other has a loose barrel and one has a hoque stock that just wont let the mags drop. I see instructors lend theirs out and they never mess up.
As Mr R senior is now deceased, we may have a chance at getting somewhere with the company. They should be passing out fliers with every rifle for what we have done for them!
Indeed.
I had never considered buying a 10/22 until Appleseed. Actually, even after my first 3 'seeds, I hadn't considered it. Then my trusty SKS started giving me fits, had to send out the trigger group for work, and needed a rifle for 'seed #4. Borrowed a loaner rifle, and the rest is history... Now have two 10/22's, one scoped, one with Tech-Sights.
As an Appleseed Instructor (IIT to Red Hat), it is always a good idea to bring whatever spares you've got, for use by attendees; this could mean shooting mats, loaner rifles, magazines, slings, an extra bulk-pack of .22, hearing protection, eye protection, etc. You'll be amazed at what people DON'T show up with, that is clearly required for participating in a Rifle Marksmanship class.
When you loan something out, (a sling, for example) it is a good idea to write down who you loaned it to; not for fear of them not returning it on purpose, but because there is usually so much for them to take in, that returning borrowed items can easily slip their mind, especially at the end of the weekend when everyone is packing up to drive home. Not to mention the possibility of *YOU* forgetting who you loaned it to. I am notorious for this, hence the notepad with loaned equipment on it.
Making a note is a very good idea. We are considering hanging colored streamers off the slings!!! We also make announcements at the end of every night before we cut them loose..."If you borrowed something from an instructor or anyone else please get it back to them."
Oh yeah 2 10/22's both have earned rifleman a couple times...one scoped one tech....although at one time they both had tech sights...(my eyes just don't do tech sights very well :-[)
NorCal22Gal
I also did not own a 10-22 until AS. Now there are 4. My favorite has some where in the neighborhood of 20000 rds through it and I think 7 notches that new RM's have carved into the stock. As to things breaking,no problems. I do have some reservations about lending these out before the shoot, but when at the shoot there is always someone deserving of a loaner. So they get used.
Quote from: jacques on February 09, 2010, 08:09:22 PM
I did not even own a 10/22 when I started all this. I do not even like them. Now I have 3. Ruger should do a story on the durability of these. I wonder who has the most lent out 10/22 out there with out a malfunction. Since the AS last weekend, all 3 are broken. One the trigger wont reset, the other has a loose barrel and one has a hoque stock that just wont let the mags drop. I see instructors lend theirs out and they never mess up.
The rifle I loaned was a Sako Armory 91/30 Mosin Nagant, albeit the single most beautiful one on the planet(it still had the hang tag on it when I bought it)with the arctic birch stock and the Finnish sling swivels. :D I'm not about to let anyone carve on the stock but I did have him autograph the case. You can bet I'll bring several of my 10/22s to the next one!!! &)
Along with a half dozen slings, I think that every instructor would be well served to have at least two 10/22. One with Tech sights and one scoped. Every AS I've been too, I've loaned out both rifles, and all out slings. It can make the difference between someone having a frustrating time at AS, and having a great experience.
AS Instructors, and 10/22 loaner fans,
Be advised Ruger has repeated/recycled their 2009 Instructor Purchase Program for 2010. For ALL of 2010
(till end of December) there's an Instructor Purchase price list, appx 1/3 off MSRP. Bought 2 loaner 10/22s for AS last year: Stainless/syn stock model appx $196, and Compact CRR model appx $191...saved more than enough to pay for Tech sights, swivels, and slings...
Receive the discount as am NRA Instr and Coach; someone needs to contact Ruger (and other companies having similar programs, like Henry) and have Appleseed Instructor added to qualified group...a further incentive for IITs to attain their RH...33% off suggested list on ANY Ruger made is one powerful incentive.
Exscelsior,
mad
nyrasgt
Also, let us not forget the lowly Marlin 795. At $139 each (and a $25 rebate for the first one) this will help an Appleseed IIT with a tight budget. For those not familiar with the features, they include swivel studs, 10-round box magazine, auto bolt hold-back, (RHS) trigger finger bolt release, and one can be field stripped with a flat bladed screwdriver in about one minute. Tech sights (with both windage and yardage 'click' stops on the rear sight) can be had for them for $75 including shipping.
Here's a quote from a post on The Firing Line forum (http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36578 (http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36578)):
QuoteI cant even add up how much I have in my 10/22. Last year I bought a 795SS for my wife because she liked how light it felt. Well I have to say I hate that gun. Spent $175 for it and right out of the box it outshoots my 10/22, 20 pound trigger and all. I'm afraid to do any trigger work on it because then my wife might actually outshoot me. Lord have mercy, I would never hear the end of it then.
'Nuff said...
I know a man from West VA that writes "Stolen from Atticus" on all of his loaner slings. &)
In my opinion, the Remington 597 is the best LTR you can get.
The Rugers have that annoying bolt hold-open feature that causes a lot of confusion with shooters who are unfamiliar with the rifle. I don't know how much time on the line I've used up demonstrating how to lock back and release the bolt on a Ruger. I think its an unnecessary distraction when we're already throwing so much new knowledge at the shooters. Also, the triggers are atrocious on the newer Rugers. All these things can be fixed, but I just don't think you should have to buy a new hammer/sear and bolt hold-open just to make a rifle adequate, especially when it already costs $200.
The Marlin 795 is too little and light for my liking! It doesn't simulate a center fire rifle well, which is what an LTR is supposed to do IMO. The mags aren't flush with the stock, and they don't drop free. Those 2 are minor considerations, but still... I'd rather shell out the extra 30 bucks or so it takes to get a Remington.
The Remingtons have a good trigger, mags drop free, easy bolt hold-open, they feel more like a center fire, and the Marlin Tech Sights work on them if you use a longer screw on the front sight. Sometimes you see them in a package deal with a scope for $150 or so.
I have seen fewer malfunctions with these Marlins. That may just be because there are not as many of them though. They almost seem a better option.
Quote from: Another D.O.M. on February 10, 2010, 08:56:19 AM
Also, let us not forget the lowly Marlin 795. At $139 each (and a $25 rebate for the first one) this will help an Appleseed IIT with a tight budget. For those not familiar with the features, they include swivel studs, 10-round box magazine, auto bolt hold-back, (RHS) trigger finger bolt release, and one can be field stripped with a flat bladed screwdriver in about one minute. Tech sights (with both windage and yardage 'click' stops on the rear sight) can be had for them for $75 including shipping.
Here's a quote from a post on The Firing Line forum (http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36578 (http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36578)): QuoteI cant even add up how much I have in my 10/22. Last year I bought a 795SS for my wife because she liked how light it felt. Well I have to say I hate that gun. Spent $175 for it and right out of the box it outshoots my 10/22, 20 pound trigger and all. I'm afraid to do any trigger work on it because then my wife might actually outshoot me. Lord have mercy, I would never hear the end of it then.
'Nuff said...
Quote from: henschman on February 10, 2010, 12:40:58 PMIn my opinion, the Remington 597 is the best LTR you can get.
The Rugers have that annoying bolt hold-open feature that causes a lot of confusion with shooters who are unfamiliar with the rifle. I don't know how much time on the line I've used up demonstrating how to lock back and release the bolt on a Ruger. I think its an unnecessary distraction when we're already throwing so much new knowledge at the shooters. Also, the triggers are atrocious on the newer Rugers. All these things can be fixed, but I just don't think you should have to buy a new hammer/sear and bolt hold-open just to make a rifle adequate, especially when it already costs $200.
The Marlin 795 is too little and light for my liking! It doesn't simulate a center fire rifle well, which is what an LTR is supposed to do IMO. The mags aren't flush with the stock, and they don't drop free. Those 2 are minor considerations, but still... I'd rather shell out the extra 30 bucks or so it takes to get a Remington.
The Remingtons have a good trigger, mags drop free, easy bolt hold-open, they feel more like a center fire, and the Marlin Tech Sights work on them if you use a longer screw on the front sight. Sometimes you see them in a package deal with a scope for $150 or so.
I'll take your word on this as I have no personal experience w/ the Remy. Of course, that means I have to go buy one now for comparison and loaning out. FWIW, the Marlin 'fits' me well, but I am of below average size.
Quote from: jacques on February 10, 2010, 12:43:29 PMI have seen fewer malfunctions with these Marlins. That may just be because there are not as many of them though. They almost seem a better option.
I've only seen one or two Marlins on the line at the Appleseeds I've attended, compared to maybe two dozen Rugers. Certainly it makes sense we will encounter more issues with the rifles we see more of.
The only problem I've found w/ the Marlin is the magazine and release. The fit in the well is tight - mainly, I think, for positioning purposes. Fewer fail-to-feed problems, but you literally have to fight that mag out of the well on changes. With practice it would probably improve - but if it's a loaner, the user won't have the advantage of that practice.
I've shot tricked up 10/22 and missed rifleman because of a malfunction. I never had a problem with the 795. Ever. I like them. If only they mad a T-6 stock for it...l
Quote
Quote
Great, now I have to get a Remington to go with my Marlin and Ruger. When I found Appleseed I already had Rem 550, Marlin 39A, old Win .22 short, and Mossberg 44us(a). I DID NOT NEED ANOTHER .22 ;D. Out of the box the $200. Ruger 10/22 sucked. After replacing the bolt release and mag release and extractor it would go bang every time with most ammo. I polished the trigger parts and got an acceptable pull. Bought a Marlin 795 for around $100 and only had to replace the hammer strut bridge because I launched it to outerspace when taking the trigger group apart to polish. Easy to operate and no fte/ftf with any ammo I use right out of the box. And it shoots tighter groups. Trigger acceptable after polish. Both are loaners, Tech Sights on the Ruger, scope on the Marlin. I see another Remington in my future.
I beveled the front of my extractors and the extractor notch in the barrel, replaced the entire trigger group with the Valquartson and put Hogue stocks on them. Zero problems. Bang. bang, bang, bang, bang, bang!
Coly's 10-22 is really nice.
I saw a 10-22 at a gun show that was modified to look like an M1-Garand! It was so realistic I thought is was an M1 until I went to look at it. You can really go all out if you have the cash.
It makes sense to build up a LTR as close to the rifle you use.
I prefer the AR-15 with the .22 conversion. It is nice because you have the exact same rifle, same sights, etc. Black Dog machine will give you the non bolt hold open follower for free if you call or order them under the Uzi section. They also have very inexpensive .22 dummy rounds. I like to teach students to retract the bolt when empty for with the .22 and 5.56 (rather than the bolt release button) as this makes the operation the same.
Of course, you have to like the AR first! ;D
Oh, I agree that the Rem. is very good. Mage drops free which is nice.
QuoteAlong with a half dozen slings, I think that every instructor would be well served to have at least two 10/22
I agree, especially if you are involved in AS as an Instructor. I recently bought one as a loaner rifle as I believe that not having a "rigged out" rifle is a major, if not the biggest, reason why people do not come to AS shoots in the first place. What I mean by "rigged out" is a rifle with studs, QR swivels, a sling, scope or aperture sights, and several mags. Having 10/22's as loaners is a great idea!
QuoteI prefer the AR-15 with the .22 conversion.
Do those really work? I've heard conflicting reports on .22 conversion kits for AR-15's, and planning on buying and AR this year I would like to have feedback from a fellow Appleseeder that has one. Thanks!!! :)
---GFG
GF,
I have seen them work and I have seen them fail. All of the "kits" that are designed to go into an existing AR are best served by them that "have the knowing and the doing of many things" - handy types with a working knowledge of firesticks and metal in general. Not for the newbie and some of the kits work better than others.
And then there is the bore diameter mis-match - the .556 round is larger than the 22LR and as such, the converted Ar will never be as accurate as a proprietary unit (IE: Spikes Tactical).
The obvious advantage is that you get to shoot cheap, but still hold yer favorite rifle. I have seen 10/22s in Tapco stocks with the AR style collapsible rear stock - they are pretty close ergonomically to an AR and work like a 1022.
I would think that an AR conversion would be best suited to personal use, as that is a rather pricey loaner set up, but hey, Appleseeders are the most generous people in America. @)
PH
Thanks for that info on .22 kits. O0 Now I have another question. If I'm planning on buying a gas piston driven AR, which I am, would I still be able to attach a .22 conversion to the lower? I would think that it would work as long as the lowers are the same as just plain gas driven AR's, but am still not quite sure. ???
---GF
This thread was on track for awhile and then began to be yet further debate about "This rifle versus that rifle" It got moved from the intended forum and my own insight was moved from the tips and techniques for instructors. Please do return to the original intent and encourage Administration to return it to the original forum. Thanks guys. :bow:
Quote from: jacques on February 09, 2010, 08:09:22 PM
I did not even own a 10/22 when I started all this. ... Now I have 3. Since the AS last weekend, all 3 are broken. ... one has a hoque stock that just wont let the mags drop.
If the mags stick to the sides of the mag well of the Hogue stock:
Unload and clear the Ruger 10/22. Turn it upside down. You should be able to insert a business card on either side between the mag and the mag well. Take out the takedown screw and remove the Hogue stock from the receiver and barrel, turn the stock upside down and look at where the mag is binding as you bring it in and out of the mag well. Cautiously apply sandpaper or file or Dremel (very gently) to the sides of the mag well and keep checking for clearance. Don't take out too much- just enough so the mags drop free.
That's good stuff Big H. After running through $400 worth of .223 ammo at our first AS, we put a sling on a 10-22 we had and bought another. The bolt release and mags hanging up drove me nuts so I made the modification to the bolt release where all you have to do is pull the bolt back and it releases. The mags, one had a loose allen screw causing it to hang up worse then the others and all of them had mold flashing that I smoothed out with an emery board. Those 2 mods alone made them much more user friendly. Of course these 2 guns will be loaners now with an eyeball out for more as we learn/grow in the AS world. I have a bag of wood screw sling attachments and extra slings in my AS box to give away as need be.
I understand and am in full agreement of using off the shelf "stock" rifles and learning to reach rifleman status with them but the guns have to function otherwise it throws a frustration factor in that in most cases easily fixed with a tiny bit of effort. I'm playing with a couple of other easy to do mods to 10-22's and once I have more concrete info I'll post them....O.L.
Quote from: oladcock on February 28, 2010, 01:23:33 PM
I understand and am in full agreement of using off the shelf "stock" rifles and learning to reach rifleman status with them but the guns have to function otherwise it throws a frustration factor in that in most cases easily fixed with a tiny bit of effort.
I believe the goal is to be able to make Rifleman with a stock 'service grade' rifle.
A Ruger 10-22, as it comes new in the box, is far from a service grade rifle in terms of reliability.
I have two 10-22s that will run through a brick of ammo in a weekend without a single hiccup. Other than time and a new extended mag release they are all stock parts. They have been 'massaged' a little, but no real costs involved.
I concur with Douglas - the 1022s I see having probs are the tricked out versions. The chambers on the bull barrels are notorious for being too tight.
All I did was add tech sights and I put one in a Tapco stock for the adjustable LOP. They have been thru an obscene amount of ammo and abuse and show no signs of stopping.
Quote from: Another D.O.M. on February 10, 2010, 08:56:19 AM
Also, let us not forget the lowly Marlin 795. At $139 each (and a $25 rebate for the first one) this will help an Appleseed IIT with a tight budget. For those not familiar with the features, they include swivel studs, 10-round box magazine, auto bolt hold-back, (RHS) trigger finger bolt release, and one can be field stripped with a flat bladed screwdriver in about one minute. Tech sights (with both windage and yardage 'click' stops on the rear sight) can be had for them for $75 including shipping.
Here's a quote from a post on The Firing Line forum (http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36578 (http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36578)): QuoteI cant even add up how much I have in my 10/22. Last year I bought a 795SS for my wife because she liked how light it felt. Well I have to say I hate that gun. Spent $175 for it and right out of the box it outshoots my 10/22, 20 pound trigger and all. I'm afraid to do any trigger work on it because then my wife might actually outshoot me. Lord have mercy, I would never hear the end of it then.
Dick's has 795's on sale for $119.
'Nuff said...
On Dart's reco, I'm picking up a 795 for loaner LTR duty. I'll try to put 500 rds down it before April 17-18 and give a back to back comparison on it.
I have a modified 10/22 that shoots great (have $200 in mods) and a 597 that has maybe $50 in mods (extractor and hammer).
The 597 shoots way better out of the box in my experience. The aftermarket extractor eliminates stovepipes, which was the only problem I ever had with it. Didn't have to have the lighter hammer, supposed to decrease lock time.
Doesn't have the mag jams like the 10/22 does, just a good rifle. FWIW....for $119, a HECK of a deal!
My .22 has a preferance of Ammo. The Federals jam, and it hates them. It loves Eley Sport. But go figure, it also likes Remington 525 Golden Bullet. I need a Rifle Whisperer.
Jules
"Doesn't have the mag jams like the 10/22 does, just a good rifle."
I don't know if it's been covered before but if you take the 10-22 mags and make sure the allen screw on the end is tight, then take an emery board and clean up the rough edges and smooth out the mold flashings, they fall out and go in like a champ....O.L.