I've been Appleseeding for about 2 years now. I've worked about 15 events or so... I don't have an exact count.
One thing that jumped out at me after the first 4-5 events is that Wolf/Brown Bear ammo is A-OK just fine in combloc rifles, chambered in combloc cartridges. 7.62x39, 5.45x39, 7.62x54R.
These cartridge designs have strong sloping walls from the head to just before the shoulder, and taper inwards even before the bottleneck. My guess is this helps stop the chamber and case from galling together.
However: When you start taking a predominantly straight-walled bottleneck cartridge such as .223 or .308 and using steel for the case material, you have dramatically increased potential for galling or friction.
NATO cartridge designs (5.56x45 and 7.62x51) assume the case is to be made from brass and that in the grand tug-o-war of extraction, the brass case loses the friction battle with the chamber walls before the extractor loses the tugging battle against the extraction groove.
This is how you get that light powdering of brass in a rifle's receiver: bits of brass getting ground off the walls of the case during extraction due to friction with the chamber.
To make a long story, short:
EVERY shooter I've seen with steel cased .223 or .308 ammunition has suffered numerous stuck cases and rifle failures on an Appleseed line.
Another way of phrasing that:
I've NEVER seen an AR or M14 or FAL complete an Appleseed with a 100% up-time when using steel-cased ammunition.
That's in about a year of paying close attention to the issue.
I've gotten to the point that I note shooters on the line who are shooting steel cased ammo and I now plan on locating a cleaning rod behind them on the line.... I just bought a cheap one expressly for this purpose... knocking out stuck steel cases.
Just to be fair: I have seen plenty of Saigas, SKS's, Mini-30's and AK's complete a weekend with no stuck case failures, using steel ammo in x39 chambers.
Are my observations merely coincidence, or are they grounded in something resembling reasonable deduction?
Never had a problem with steel 308 in a Saiga (commie) or a NATO Cetme. Well, I assume the Cetme is NATO, but since when does a Cetme have extraction problems?
Only shot steel 223 in my saiga.
There may be a difference between lacquered cases and non-lacquered, though.
J
I shot a lot of brown bear through my DPMS LR-308C when I had it, and never had an issue. However, I never shot a whole appleseed's worth of ammo through it without a cleaning in between. When the chamber gets hot, a little bit of lacquer actually melts off the case of that lacquered-case ammo and stays in there. That could make the chamber tolerances too tight and cause extraction problems if it builds up. I'd say if you're going to shoot lacquered case stuff, make sure you have a chamber brush, and use it frequently. If you want to be really prepared for shooters having this issue on the line, you might buy a .308 chamber brush and one of those AR chamber brushes that has the extra long wires for the star grooves. Then you can cure the shooter's problem, not just fix the symptom!
The combloc rifles with their lower tolerances have no problem with the stuff, like you said. My AK may not shoot the prettiest groups of any of my rifles -- 500 yards is about its outer limit -- but it will shoot anything you feed it, and you never have to clean it, ever.
Interesting. My observations have been the opposite, in that the steel causes no problems attributable to the ammo. Have lots of folks shoot .223 wolf in AR/Mini14 this region.
I have also used .223 wolf in my rifles with no issues though usually don't shoot as much at one time as attendees at an Appleseed. (I also tend to almost never clean my rifles and so have gone for MANY times an Appleseed "normal" round count without cleaning. No ammo-related problems.)
The only exception to the above has been wolf .308. Saw one that had no flash hole in the primer pocket ;D and one squib. Otherwise functioned nominally.
Perhaps this is climate related. I am in the SE where it is humid and not so dusty. Perhaps the lacquer coating stays at an acceptable moisture content and remains marginally softer here...
SoM
A gunsmith friend advised me not to use steel-case ammo in anything but com-bloc firearms: he noted the same case-sticking problems AZRedhawk commented on. These problems manifested themselves as poor chambering (firearms wouldn't go into battery) as well as poor extraction. He had four non-combloc pistols in the shop waiting on new extractors; the old ones had been battered by steel case ammo. Czech light ball 7.62x54R is famous for case-lacquer related sticking; but acetone or lacquer thinner takes it off quickly. I believe Wolf modified their steel case coating a couple of years ago (now a polymer?). BTW - an HK-91/CETME with steel case ammo needs to be on the far right of any line; the brass can be ejected between 80-110 degrees from the line of sight and ejection is 'vigorous' (read screaming).
I have fired about 30K of steel cased stuff but it was all USGI Evansville Arsenal 45 ACP.
Never had a hitch. Even reamed the primer pockets to handle LP primers and reloaded a lot of it.
They said it was hard on extractors but I never had any problems with it at all.
Sam
Hello ALL; This past summer we had a couple with Mini 14`s and steel cased ammo. Two instructors were hit by EJECTED casings and needed a patch as they were bleeding one on the arm one on the lip.. The Mini`s should be on the far right also, if just to save the bandaids!!!!!! :--- :--- :--- :--- :--- ..:.. ..:.. O0 Watch out.Pappy
I have seen issues in AR's, more so in the cold. I have had FTE issues myself so generally do not use it.
I was talking to a guy at the gun show while buying a ruptured case extractor for my M1A1 and he said he sold a lot of them to people shooting the lacquered steel cases in AKs. He said when the AKs got hot the laquer was building up in the chamber and then it would rip the case into. Hard to clear that problem in a tight situation, you know like shooting an AQT.
JG
NATO and COMBLOC rounds are different. ComBloc rounds have tapered cases. They extract easier.
The jams with steel case I have seen tend to be when lacquer and polymer coated rounds are mixed and shot out of the same rifle. But I don't know why.
IMHO, most folks don't know how to properly clean and maintain their rifle. That's a far larger issue. I've seen lots of folks on the range who have no clue how to break down their Garand or AR...much less clean it.
I shoot steel out of my AR...It's dirty, not match grade and I haven't really had a problem that I haven't experienced with brass.
I also have heard that the melting lacquer jam issue is more myth than truth. That little thin metal case gets very hot when fired...if melting was an issue then it would show up almost immediately. Many blamed the sticky bolt issues with Mosins on lacquer instead of cosmoline build up in the bolt.
I've only shot it in two AR's. Both brand new. Broke them in on Wolf. Mine ate it like candy, round after boring round with no issue. My son's rifle would shoot a round or two and then fail to eject or fail to load the next round. Swapped parts around between mine and his (my bolt/carrier into his rifle and his bolt/carrier into my rifle) and mine continued eating the Wolf while his slowly got better. Took about 80 rounds and his rifle was shooting it with no problems.
Lot's of lube (Mobil 1) on/in both rifles.
I need to buy more.
Oh, my S&W M&P 15 eats the 5.45X39 Russian surplus like candy, too. One dud round in several hundred, no other issues.
My AR (DCM setup, stainless 1/8x20" HBAR, .223 chamber) ripped the rim off a round of Wolf in the first magazine. After clearing that I tried it once more and had similar results. Tight chambers in particular will cause issues.
I sold ALL my steel-cased ammo (Wolf, Bear, Barnaul) with my Mini-14 shortly thereafter. Only brass now in the AR.
My AKlone ate Wolf constantly and with no issues whatsoever.
Quote from: Old Dog on February 02, 2010, 11:21:48 PM
Oh, my S&W M&P 15 eats the 5.45X39 Russian surplus like candy, too. One dud round in several hundred, no other issues.
I have a 5.45 upper coming very soon, and 4k rounds of Russian surplus awaiting. I dare say this theory will be tested... 8)
I have been shooting Silver Bear in my new custom-built AR - 500 rounds without a hitch. However, a friends DPMS Panther AR jammed on the second shot when he tried it- couldn't extract the case at all. His works fine on anything brass. My mini-14 has handled Wolf classic and Silver Bear ok - maybe 500 rds through that too..
So, it seems that the tighter your chamber is, the worse the performance is for steel cased ammo.
Those of you with 5.45 uppers on AR's... remember, you're still dealing with a combloc chamber and cartridge design: tapering body and less friction on extraction. Same as an AK-74 in that regard.
Interesting how general humidity could have something to do with it, though my initial assumption would be to guess that higher humidity would give less reliability rather than more reliability. I wonder what SOM's rifle is headspaced at... sloppy and functional, or tight and meticulous?
I shot my first Riflemen score while using steel cased Russian Barnaul 55gr FMJ.
The Rifle was a 100 percent Colt AR-15A2 16" barrel with a 1x9 twist.
After that boot camp I got a deal on some brass cased ammo. Later, I read on the Internet (so it's gotta be true) that steel case ammo was excessively hard on the extractor so I didn't use it anymore. Heck, I don't even shoot my AR anymore...because I loves my Garand ;D
Hope you get the info you are looking for.
Hard on the extractor? Maybe. I have shot 2-3 thousand Wolf and Brn Bear thru my Bushy AR. 5.56 chamber No problems.
One word of caution:
If you do not have a chrome bore and chrome chamber.....you will, in all likelyhood, end up with stuck cases in the chamber. The coating melts off the case and stays in the chamber. Then when it cools............you have a problem :-[
Any and all ARs should have a chrome bore & chamber. That's how it was designed. The "Whiz Kids" thought it was an un-necessary add on and eliminated it. I'm sure you are familiar with how well that worked overseas. :'(
EEL
Well, I have owned several copies of both types. None ever had match anything on them, and I treat a rifle more like a hammer than a garden (tools, not projects). Odds are good that none of my rifles ever had particularly tight chambers. Having said that, they didn't often have CLEAN chambers either, so add a thou or two back... **).
But let's try to stay on track guys--the original question was about NATO calibers with steel cased ammo. We all agree that the commie stuff works fine.
OP said that he had NEVER seen a rifle firing that combination make it through an Appleseed without problems. That is almost certainly due to ammo, but is it normal or particular to something about the OP?
I said earlier that I had not seen any ammo-related problems. To clarify, I have seen two samples where people had problems and were firing wolf-ish stuff in ARs (I think). They did have problems, but I don't recall if they found a resolution. I am hesitant to call this an ammo issue--indeed, if a rifle won't function with a particular type of ammo that meets specs I tend to think of that as a RIFLE issue. (This assumes that the ammo is in spec. I have never tested any wolf to see, or read of anyone who has.) I have reloaded for quite a while, and have a good idea of what variations a rifle should tolerate. You can actually stray fairly far from the ideal in your ammo and still have it work.
Would be interesting to see if this is climate-related in some way, probably in combination with chambering. Not going to have a definitive answer based on anecdotal evidence though.
SoM
Here in Illinois, I can 1st hand attest to the build up of the coating causing cases to stick. Mid summer day, temps in the 80's, humidity 85 ish.
The rifle starts short stroking, then proceeds to a FTE, then as it worsens, to a stuck case. I had to slam the buttstock on the ground while yanking back the charging handle.
I agree, a 5.56 chamber is the way to go as it is a tad more forgiving (sloppier) than a .223 chamber. My rifle is a stock build up. Run of the mill AR. The upper was a pre assembled 5.56 chambered flat top I picked up at Knob Creek. In a weak moment, I forgot to demand a chrome chamber / bore. It went down the road 1st chance I got. Now each AR has chrome. Don't compromise there.
My 2 cents.
EEL
So does the polymer coated ammo instead of the lacquer coated ammo solve some of the build up problems?
To kill a myth, the major difference between .223 and 5.56 mm chambers is the throat, not the actual chamber. There's also the Wylde chamber, which is another throat variation.
The throat differences impacts the bullets used, espeically the weight.
5.56 mm throat for 62 gr, including tracers.
.223 throat for 55 gr.
Wylde throat I'm not so sure what it was optomized for. Undoubtedly 62 gr FMJ or 69-77 gr match bullets, but not sure which.
And, I'll add that the issue here is case taper, coupled with the weak extractor on the AR platform. I'll wager you'll find steel cased .30-06 ammo runs just fine through an M1 Garand or FN-49, just like steel cased 7.92x57 runs fine through a Hakim or G-43.
Quote(This assumes that the ammo is in spec. I have never tested any wolf to see, or read of anyone who has.)
This is interesting, right here.
Nickle: You've been involved in the ammo makin' business before... Does the SAAMI/NATO spec for 5.56x45 or .223 Remington specify case material? Is there any "circle-cross" NATO-approved ammo in steel cases?
Quote from: EEL on February 03, 2010, 02:11:56 PM
a 5.56 chamber is the way to go as it is a tad more forgiving (sloppier) than a .223 chamber. ...In a weak moment, I forgot to demand a chrome chamber / bore.
Another angle to examine and gather more data: 5.56, .223 Rem or .223 Wylde chamber. Also, chrome versus not-chromed. I'll keep that in mind in the future. Good ideas.
Well, that helps with the AR .223 platform. Thanks, guys.
I've seen a couple Springer M1A's taken off the line, too. To my knowledge, all springer barrels are not chrome lined. Just plain steel. One had its extractor snapped on a stuck steel case, and the other had a case stuck and the extractor ripped over the groove, requiring the cleaning-rod-whacking procedure.
Are there models from Springfield Armory that come with chrome lined barrels and chambers? My custom M14 has a chrome lined barrel, but it's a Kreiger-Criterion barrel and not from Springfield.
Steve, can't say for sure. All I CAN say is that with the chromed bore / chamber.................shooting steel cased Nato ammo doesn't seem to be a problem.
Buy a 200 rnd pack and give it a whirl. Run it thru the paces. Shoot a couple rapid fire AQTs. After firing 6-8 rounds, let one sit in the chamber till the rifle cools a bit. Play with it. Test YOUR rifle / ammo combination. What works for you might not work for every other AR out there......and Vice-Versa.
EEL
Quote from: AZRedhawk44 on February 03, 2010, 02:44:03 PM
Nickle: You've been involved in the ammo makin' business before... Does the SAAMI/NATO spec for 5.56x45 or .223 Remington specify case material? Is there any "circle-cross" NATO-approved ammo in steel cases?
Still am involved, much more than before. Currently in the process of changing ownership of that business from my father to me.
I'm sure there's a NATO (or US Mil-Spec) specification for the case material. Willing to bet it calls for brass.
I'm also willing to wager there is no known NATO steel case 5.56 out there. Yes, the cross in the circle means NATO. Just bear in mind that there is NO NATO approved M193. Calling the cartridge 5.56 NATO in the first place is a total misnomer (and wishful thinking). NATO didn't go along with it until the 1980's.
Hello Group; EEL has it right, GO with the chrome chamber and bore when ever you can, its like insurance against malfunctions. Pappy
Quote from: AZRedhawk44 on February 03, 2010, 02:44:03 PM
I've seen a couple Springer M1A's taken off the line, too. To my knowledge, all springer barrels are not chrome lined. Just plain steel. One had its extractor snapped on a stuck steel case, and the other had a case stuck and the extractor ripped over the groove, requiring the cleaning-rod-whacking procedure.
If the latter one was at Reno, NV last May, (when you & AZGromit were co-SB's) then I remember it.
My father in law's M1A had it happen around lunch on Sunday. I gave him about 200 rounds of SA ammo to finish the day with, as he didn't trust his Wolf ammo supply.
Chris
I only have one such experience, and it was negative. We had an inexperienced, unconfident female shooter with one of those Kel-Tec .223 carbines. I'm pretty sure those have plain steel, not chromed or stainless, chambers. And maybe not the smoothest in the world. It looked plenty clean enough to me, but gave her fits all day with misfeeds and/or FTE's with steel-cased Wolf FMJ. It seemed to get worse through the day, but mabe it was just her fatigue and frustration increasing. Her fella had just bought that batch of ammo to save a few bucks on the big pile they expected to burn that weekend. He shot an AK variant (7.62 x 39mm) himself, and had never had any trouble with any brand of cheap steel-case ammo in that, so it didn't even cross his mind to test the little Kel-Tec with steel-case .223's. He said that the rifle had run flawlessly up to then, with several brands of brass-case stuff. He never suspected that the different ammo could cause a problem.
Lessons learned/reinforced:
1. Ops check any rifle with the intended ammo before an important event (or trusting it to defend home, hearth, and family!).
2. Newbies should be started with .22LR's until they are comfortable and confident, both with their basic shooting skills and "making the rifle run." Less noise and recoil help the newbie concentrate on the many things to learn, and also to gain confidence faster along the way.
3. Even high-cost .22 LR's are cheaper than low-end centerfires.
Quote from: Chris_H on February 03, 2010, 11:54:16 PM
Quote from: AZRedhawk44 on February 03, 2010, 02:44:03 PM
I've seen a couple Springer M1A's taken off the line, too. To my knowledge, all springer barrels are not chrome lined. Just plain steel. One had its extractor snapped on a stuck steel case, and the other had a case stuck and the extractor ripped over the groove, requiring the cleaning-rod-whacking procedure.
If the latter one was at Reno, NV last May, (when you & AZGromit were co-SB's) then I remember it.
My father in law's M1A had it happen around lunch on Sunday. I gave him about 200 rounds of SA ammo to finish the day with, as he didn't trust his Wolf ammo supply.
Chris
You got it, Chris. Reno was that one... and then TreadCarefully might remember the other one as Tonopah, AZ with an M1A that snapped its extractor on some steel wolf. I think CycleTrash was the shooter (haven't heard from him in awhile...)
Another vote for no-go with steel cased ammo.
My AR chokes and dies on it, sticking cases after about 50 rounds down the pipe. This is with the 'new' Wolf Polyperformance ammunition, which is polymer coated, rather than lacquered.
Strangely enough, I ran about 200 rounds of Wolf through it when I first built the rifle, and experienced zero malfunctions. Take the rifle to an Appleseed, and the rifle fails in every way imaginable.
FYI: 5.56 chamber, 1:9 twist, nitride coated. (no chrome)
Now, the commie rifles that I own don't care one way or the other, lacquer, polymer, copper-washed, or brass; all feed and function just fine. (Mosin 91/30 being the exception, with it having *massive* trouble with the lacquered steel case ammo)
No problem with steel/poly (Wolf) or steel/lacquer (brownbear) in my Ar15 (5.56 chamber/.223 rounds); close to 1K rounds of this.
One piece of advice I was given I'll pass on - if you use one kind, stick with it for the duration of your shooting, and clean the rifle if you are going to switch types.
These days, I can buy the steel for about what it costs me to hand-load .223. Which is nice - it allows me to spend my reloading time on other calibers - esp ones I save a lot of money reloading. (I'm still living under the delusion I save money reloading ::))
Quote from: AZRedhawk44 on February 02, 2010, 04:31:22 PM
EVERY shooter I've seen with steel cased .223 or .308 ammunition has suffered numerous stuck cases and rifle failures on an Appleseed line.
Another way of phrasing that:
I've NEVER seen an AR or M14 or FAL complete an Appleseed with a 100% up-time when using steel-cased ammunition.
Are my observations merely coincidence, or are they grounded in something resembling reasonable deduction?
The only time I have seen problems is with dirty rifles. I personally shot 2 Appleseeds using only Wolf in my AR15. I shot the Sunday KD portion of one with an AR10 eating Wolf .308. A common problem is rifle hygeine at an Appleseed. Many of the attendees come with rifles which are already dirty and then try to shoot hundreds of rounds with no TLC. I have shot Wolf in semi and full autos including belt fed with zero issues of stuck cases. It may be less forgiving with a dirty rifle, but I can't speak regarding that because I do not allow my rifles to get nasty.
The steel used is very soft and is definitely softer than your bolt components. I have seen extractors break at Appleseeds on brass ammo.
Quote from: Pappy on February 03, 2010, 08:47:05 PM
Hello Group; EEL has it right, GO with the chrome chamber and bore when ever you can, its like insurance against malfunctions. Pappy
What he said. OG's rifle, that Pappy built has as of now 500 rds though it, all steel. She has only cleaned the bore, nothing else. No Problems. Sorry Pappy, she is not interested much in rifle cleaning. !@#)
Quote from: Pappy on February 02, 2010, 07:31:38 PM
Hello ALL; This past summer we had a couple with Mini 14`s and steel cased ammo. Two instructors were hit by EJECTED casings and needed a patch as they were bleeding one on the arm one on the lip.. The Mini`s should be on the far right also, if just to save the bandaids!!!!!! :--- :--- :--- :--- :--- ..:.. ..:.. O0 Watch out.Pappy
OUCH You had to remind me Pappy. :'( :'( :'( :--- :--- :--- :--- :--- and I didn't even have time to bleed. ;)
D-fly @)
We had a shooter at Elk River MN with a brand new Mini/30 shooting steel case, alot of miss fire's. Firing pin not hitting the primer hard enough, or to hard of primers in the wolf. Thought it was the ammo. It was, kind of. I saw him at another shoot and he said the ammo worked fine in his SKS. That is the only problem I have seen, besides keeping your chamber clean. You get what you pay for $$$$$$$$$$$$$$. I only shoot it in my SKS, But that's just me.
D-fly
Quote from: dragonfly on February 09, 2010, 11:37:20 AM
We had a shooter at Elk River MN with a brand new Mini/30 shooting steel case, alot of miss fire's. Firing pin not hitting the primer hard enough, or to hard of primers in the wolf. Thought it was the ammo. It was, kind of.
That is an issue with Mini-30s, not an ammo issue.. ;) The same thing can happen if you are using surplus military 7.62x51 ammo.
The harder "military" style primers are the issue as some rifles are engineered on the conservative side to fire the softer primer commercial ammo and not get slam fire. I have heard of this issue with some AR10s and lighter than factory hammer springs.
I have had a very good experience using steel cased ammo. I have found Barnaul to be the best. One thing to keep in mind is that if you switch from steel cased ammo to brass ammo, you will have malfunctions. The steel case does not expand as well as brass. Some back blast occurs, and melts the lacquer. This has the effect of forming your chamber to your ammo. When you switch to brass, the brass expands much more, and the cartridges get stuck.
Barnaul is very accurate. For the price, it is hard to beat.
I shoot lots of the steel Wolf in my M1A as hot cases disappear quick in the snow and I've yet to have a problem. I do keep my rifle very clean &)
I have a Standard (Chrome Lined Barrel) Springfield M1A I purchased new in May of 2009. I've put 1500 rounds of Laquered Brown Bear thru it. I've had two malfunctions both "failure to fire". The first round I put thru it did not go off. The second occurred when I failed to let the recoil spring freely drive the cartridge into the chamber (somewhere between 1400 and 1500 rounds). I ejected the cartridge reloaded it later in the day and fired it. I clean it around 350 rounds but have run it in excess of 450 with no trouble.
The purists frown - a lot.