As Appleseed forges headlong into the winter months, I'm looking for suggestions on how to keep rifles running under severe conditions. Assume that there is no way to avoid it. Covering rifles only works to a point. I do know that for cold temps high quality lube applied sparingly will do the trick. I'm more interested in a checklist of precautions and maintenance for ICE.
Graphite is the lube of choice for frigid temps. Prevent condensation by avoiding bringing cold rifles into warm moist places. Case them in the cold. then bring them inside and allow them to warm up before uncasing them for cleaning. Taking a warm rifle into a cold environment should not cause a condensation problem.
I second graphite. On .22s I use a pencil and cover any wear points with a nice layer of graphite. On the thunderchukers I use a tube of graphite I buy at walmart. You can find it where they make keys.
The problem is that in cold temperatures things tend to shrink. Whether it is metal, oil, grease whatever it will shrink. Oils and greases will become more viscous as a result of the temperature. Graphite will do better due to the fact it doesn't become more viscous (Well, at least not to any significant amount... I guess it might?) in the cold.
Now other than that I think the only other REAL issues are snow in the chamber/barrel and maybe fogging of a scope, but I think you should do fine just by covering it with a towel if it's blowing snow.
Quote from: Devnull on December 22, 2009, 01:08:01 PM
I second graphite. On .22s I use a pencil and cover any wear points with a nice layer of graphite. On the thunderchukers I use a tube of graphite I buy at walmart. You can find it where they make keys.
The problem is that in cold temperatures things tend to shrink. Whether it is metal, oil, grease whatever it will shrink. Oils and greases will become more viscous as a result of the temperature. Graphite will do better due to the fact it doesn't become more viscous (Well, at least not to any significant amount... I guess it might?) in the cold.
Now other than that I think the only other REAL issues are snow in the chamber/barrel and maybe fogging of a scope, but I think you should do fine just by covering it with a towel if it's blowing snow.
Devnull,
The viscosity of the graphite won't change but the liquid used, if any, will probably change its viscosity. I would think that dry graphite lubricants would be the best bet in frigid conditions.
Like I've mentioned, cold isn't the issue. I'm more concerned with water freezing in every mechanism of the rifle causing any number of malfunctions.
What to do? Hose it down with deicer before each string?
Maybe some specifics will get the suggestions coming.....
As I recall, some of the ice related malfunctions we experienced last weekend at Manheim while we had 1" of snow falling per hour & a 20mph wind included the following:
Ice forming in the firing pin channel of .22's
Ice forming on the springs of the trigger group of an AR15 keeping the trigger from moving
Ice forming on the rings and the bolt of the AR15 keeping the rifle from going into battery
Ice forming in the chamber of rifles keeping rifles from going into battery
Ice forming on the rails for the bolt of .22's keeping the rifle from going into battery
Ice forming in the mag well keeping the magazine from seating properly
and usually more of one of these at a time on several of the rifles :wb:
When the snow hit the hot rifles it melted, flowed and then froze
Several shooters got pretty proficient in chiseling out ice from the action & just working the actions repeatedly during the prep periods to get things moving
If you can get some LAW (Lubricant, Arctic Weather) it works well, designed it will have satisfactory viscosity down to -70 or so. Powdered lubricants do not deal well with "pressure" and you may get some galling in parts that are in contact with aluminum.
If you are in the surplus store it'as 9150-00-664-0038 for a 4 oz. can
9150-00-292-9689 1 Qt.
9150-00-292-9687 1 Gal.
If none of those are available Dexron is the approved suitable substitute for M-16/M-4/M60/M240/M134 use
There is no ss for aircraft applications
Quote from: willorith on December 22, 2009, 12:50:57 PM
Graphite is the lube of choice for frigid temps. Prevent condensation by avoiding bringing cold rifles into warm moist places. Case them in the cold. then bring them inside and allow them to warm up before uncasing them for cleaning. Taking a warm rifle into a cold environment should not cause a condensation problem.
... says the expert, shown napping against a palm tree in a picture, with another picture right above, showing an ice-encrusted AR-15. I love it.
Willorith, you know I'm just having fun, right? I know your info and your work in AS is good. I just couldn't resist pointing out the contrast. :)
-FM
Hello Group; After the line is cleared!!! how about covering the rifle/ action / sights/ with any thing that is handy, as long as the shoot boss approves. How was the wind ??? Those can be real tough conditions to learn in... Pappy
This thread has some good info on cold weather:
Project Appleseed - National Headquarters - Volunteers Welcome > Instructor Info > Instructor Online Manual Discussion board > Special Training Issues > COLD WEATHER SHOOTS
http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=4796.0
Quote from: willorith on December 22, 2009, 12:50:57 PM
Graphite is the lube of choice for frigid temps.
Warning: according to fepowered in http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=4796.0
Quote from: fepowered on December 10, 2008, 12:16:25 AM
I am not a fan of graphite and aluminum firearm components. 10/22, AR15, Beretta handgun, etc.. Aluminum recievers and graphite combined with any moisture can end up with galvanic corrosion..
Armalite and Colt warn against it. It can cause stuff from cracking of accessory rails to receiver failure.
Graphite can be used on all STEEL firearms.
Aluminum magazines are not subject to the stress that a receiver is.....
5w-30 motor oil is pretty stiff in the cold. I shoot year round in WI and I use synthetic gun lubes applied lightly with excellent results.
There may be several different methods which work well for different people, but I stand by my suggestion of synthetic lubes. After bringing the rifle from a warm area, once my rifle cools down, I will pull the bolt(group), wipe any condensate off and give it a fresh light coat. I do this whether in my deer stand or on the firing line at the range.
I haven't tried this stuff myself, but for those wanting to run their rifles as dry as possible, militec-1 looks promising. You clean, lube and shoot with this stuff for a couple of cycles and you can supposedly run it dry.... http://www.militec-1.com/techoverview1.html (http://www.militec-1.com/techoverview1.html)
IF you google it, you will read alot of chatter from guys who swear by it. The pour point is -45 degrees.
I must admit that the issue of snow melting and then freezing in the rifle action is not something we deal with very often in Florida.
Two approaches can work. One - keep the water out of the rifle. Two - keep the water from freezing when it is in the rifle. Raincoats or heaters.
I think that we are trying to treat the symptoms and not the disease!
The answer seems obvious to me; propane space heaters! The big suckers used to heat large areas!
The above was a joke.
You're talking about two different issues here. The type of lubrication used won't matter if snow/ice freeze inside and lock it up. After the proper lube is used you have to look at ways to keep the weather out.
The rifles are laid down in the weather (rain, snow, mud) with the action open, the magazine removed and the bolt back - asking for rain/snow to get in and freeze up.
Either check/clear and wrap it up with a water proof wrap or maybe try one of those chemical heat packets placed inside the mag. well once its' cleared and placed on the mat (and then maybe still cover it up).
A covered firing line (as long as the rain/sleet/snow isn't blowing at near horizontal) should help, too.
There are two firearms ideally suited to block out the weather from the action (both John Browning designs ;)) but neither are Appleseed friendly/usable.
All in all, the folks up north will be the best ones to answer this or figure out how to compensate for the way rifles are treated at Appleseeds (I would never lay my rifle down action open/up and magazine out in the rain or snow if I was out in the woods - who would?? - so this is something best experimented with/solved at northern Appleseeds.)
That AR got that bad even covered between AQTs? Looks like somebody gave up covering it.
Looks like it needed a garbage bag. The white kitchen sized ones. Take it out during prep, fire, dust off, then back in the bag. Bag needs something to weigh it down when empty so it doesn't blow around or open up. Don't know how you guys run preps and AQTs but the way we run them up here with one prep per AQT would cut down on unnecessary exposure. Figuring running 20 AQTs and a one minute prep per AQT the rifles are only out of the bag for 100 minutes after the usual Saturday stuff. ;D
Our rifles in Colebrook were getting clobbered from below too, so a towel was ok on top but the snow accumulating on the mat while firing was still there. Some guys started putting gloves over the muzzles and that was a good idea. We were mostly concerned with the muzzles because the danger is snow melting and refreezing in the barrel. You guys got more snow, but the freezing rain could've been doing the same or worse to us.
The size small AS shirts came in real handy as cover ups at Colebrook. Also, the shooters were reminded to cover up their actions and muzzels at the end of each AQT which really helped cut down on uncovered rifles.
Also, don't forget the mags, I believe one of mine had a chunk of ice in it as the 8th round of 10 wouldn't rise to be caught by the bolt? Really not positive as to what happened, but not just the rifles need covered and protected but magazines as well.
Crak
that was about 10 mins of exposure for the rifle. We were getting 1" snow/hr in 20mph winds. This is an uncovered line.
I like the trash bag idea. Would there be a potential plastic melting issue with the trash bags?
Quote from: crak on December 24, 2009, 04:05:07 AM
That AR got that bad even covered between AQTs? Looks like somebody gave up covering it.
Looks like it needed a garbage bag. The white kitchen sized ones. Take it out during prep, fire, dust off, then back in the bag. Bag needs something to weigh it down when empty so it doesn't blow around or open up. Don't know how you guys run preps and AQTs but the way we run them up here with one prep per AQT would cut down on unnecessary exposure. Figuring running 20 AQTs and a one minute prep per AQT the rifles are only out of the bag for 100 minutes after the usual Saturday stuff. ;D
Our rifles in Colebrook were getting clobbered from below too, so a towel was ok on top but the snow accumulating on the mat while firing was still there. Some guys started putting gloves over the muzzles and that was a good idea. We were mostly concerned with the muzzles because the danger is snow melting and refreezing in the barrel. You guys got more snow, but the freezing rain could've been doing the same or worse to us.
This is what you poor northerners need when conducting a winter Appleseed!
10 Minutes shooting time or 10 minutes laying there time? With no snow on top of the eotech or the sights I'm guessing laying there time.
We didn't have that kind of wind. That must've been killer. Was the wind enough to make the snow stick to the side of the rifle?
If I had to guess I'd think the barrel wouldn't get hot enough at Appleseed firing pace to melt the bag, but that's just a hunch.
Quote from: lprgcfrank on December 24, 2009, 01:01:56 PM
Crak
that was about 10 mins of exposure for the rifle. We were getting 1" snow/hr in 20mph winds. This is an uncovered line.
I like the trash bag idea. Would there be a potential plastic melting issue with the trash bags?
Quote from: crak on December 24, 2009, 04:05:07 AM
That AR got that bad even covered between AQTs? Looks like somebody gave up covering it.
Looks like it needed a garbage bag. The white kitchen sized ones. Take it out during prep, fire, dust off, then back in the bag. Bag needs something to weigh it down when empty so it doesn't blow around or open up. Don't know how you guys run preps and AQTs but the way we run them up here with one prep per AQT would cut down on unnecessary exposure. Figuring running 20 AQTs and a one minute prep per AQT the rifles are only out of the bag for 100 minutes after the usual Saturday stuff. ;D
Our rifles in Colebrook were getting clobbered from below too, so a towel was ok on top but the snow accumulating on the mat while firing was still there. Some guys started putting gloves over the muzzles and that was a good idea. We were mostly concerned with the muzzles because the danger is snow melting and refreezing in the barrel. You guys got more snow, but the freezing rain could've been doing the same or worse to us.
In my experience, I haven't had any problems with malfunctions in the snow or cold with the M1 or M1A using my normal grease (red auto grease).
I don't have much experience yet with ARs in the cold, but it sounds like SamD knows what he is talking about. I have been using synthetic 10/20 in my ARs, I would think that would work in the cold, too.
.22s may be more of a problem, especially semi auto.
If you cover the rifles with towels or raincoats, or stuff them in garbage bags, how do you clear the line?
I would suggest clear plastic only.
Up here, we get snow and freezing rain during hunting season. But the longarm is generally cold until fired, then generally only fired once, so I don't see melting/freezing issues that would be inherent in repeated AQT's.
Perhaps we issue AS condoms to place on the barrel to keep the snow out? (extra small for those .22's?)
You clear it the same way you do with a towel or any other cover.
One thing for sure, AS will show you if you have any issues with your rifle. G96 is good down to 50 below zero, but that isn't going to cure water freezing in the action. During the Korean war GI's pissed on the actions to get them working till they got hot, that wouldn't be good at AS but when you have hundreds of Chinese trying to kill you, you do what ever works.
JG