This is geared more to our Instructors, but any fellow Appleseed is welcome to chime in.
I am looking to get an RBC scheduled here in FL, most likely at the Bradford Sportsmen's Farm. It may be a bit of a drive for most of us, but it is currently the ONLY range that we have access to here in FL with >200m.
In preparation for for holding an RBC in Florida, *all* of our staff needs to be up to speed on how to shoot Known Distance, and more importantly, how to instruct it.
I would like to have a day, probably in January,(Looking at March now) that we could all meet at said range, and practice our KD shooting and instruction.
What say you? Anyone in for doing some shooting at 400, 500 or 600yds?
Want to build a come-up chart for your rifles? This is your chance!
How many instructors have gone through an RBC, or are familiar with the protocol for instructing KD? If you aren't, you NEED to be at this event, as we will be focusing more and more on ranges that offer distances greater than the 25m we typically use.
Post a response to this thread if you would be interested, as well as what weekend in January March you would be willing to do this on. Once we have 3-4 other people, I'll try to get an MI or SI to do the actual instruction. PHenry, you reading this? :P
-ItsanSKS
UPDATE: 12/26/2009
Still no set date for this event, though I am considering some weekend in March. Those of you who have said you want to attend need provide your availability. Simply saying "I want to go" doesn't give me anything to work with. GIVE ME DATES!
Cost for us to rent this range for the weekend is not cheap ($580) but can easily be divided amongst a group of folks. We'll have exclusive use of their 600 yard line, which has room for about 15 shooters. We'll be able to camp on-range at little-to-no cost. The more the (cheaper) merrier. Don't miss this opportunity to REALLY practice your known distance skills.
I'm there. Name the day. Brownbess and Hopalong will come also.
I'm in. Just pick a date.
Looking at the 2010 schedule of events for Florida (the one that doesn't exist, apparently) it looks like we have two events already scheduled. As we all will most likely be working both events, it stands to reason that those weekends are out of the question.
This leaves us with the following weekends in January:
January 2,3; 9,10; 23,24.
As folks (I) will likely still be recovering from an excellent new years eve celebration, I would have to say that 2,3 is out, which leaves us with the 9th & 10th, or the 23rd and 24th.
Pick a weekend, and lets get it scheduled!
I'm open. Guys, pick a date. This range is close (almost) to me so its harder on you guys.
I am skipping the first day this wknd at Myakka to hit the Long Range for just such a shoot.
Will be at A51 on Sunday and hope I'll cinch my rifleman's patch. :)
A full distance AS would be awesome!
Parramore Gang will be there
Is this something a rifleman wannabe could come do with my new M1 or would I just be in the way?
I would also like to attend if there is room on the line. I have every intention of becoming an IIT and volunteering where I am needed.
To all who are interested:
ItsanSKS and I spoke about this today and I stand ready to instruct. The minimum requirements for participating in this "soiree" would be current instructors, or anyone who is seriously working toward becoming an instructor who can group five rounds within 1" at 25M.
I would follow the fourth and fifth days of an RBC - modified for our purposes. All who attend will be exposed to advanced Rifleman info - target detection, range estimation, and windage. We will cover the "verticle" and the "horizontal" components of long range marksmanship. I also have some PMS out to other instructors of greater experience - so who knows? We might git someone "famous" to come down and help out! O0
I will work up a POI that allows what we call the FDAQT, or full distance AQT. We will place (assuming we can get them in time) Army "D" targets at 100, 200, 300, and 400 yards. A score of 200 or higher will earn a Rifleman patch - a FD Rifleman patch (same patch - larger bragging rights).
We would begin at 25M, just like an event to attain a good zero, and then .30 shooters would move to 200M to verify. .223 shooters would move to 300M for same reason. This would give all a chance to get real-world come ups for their rifle. Understand that shooting past 100M requires a high power rifle and good ammo (also good grasp of basics for sure).
AR shooters must have high twist rate (1:9 minimum) and 20 barrel, with full sight radius or solid, good qual scope and mount, as well as the right load for their rifle (1:7 twist likes 68gr HPBT Match to 77gr HPBT Match for shooting past 300M - 1:9 will likely max out at 68gr).
.308 will want 168gr HP match or very good surplus ball ammo.
Don't be too concerned about reaching out to 600 yards, as we would be shooting everything in between as well.
To make this work, we will need ten paid shooters. The range is going to be ours for two full days. It is also going to be $$$. If we can get ten shooters - it will run each person under $60 for both days. Every penny of that would go to range.
As this would involve significant effort for ItsanSKS, please let us know ASAP, so that we can get prepped. :~ :~ :~ :~ :~
Thanks,
PH
What would you estimate the round count would be for the weekend? :---
Cheaperthandirt.com has some .223 69 gr match from BVAC for about 58 cents a round shipped. My 1 in 9 twist stabilizes it very well, but that's the heaviest I would go.
You FL boys trying to sneak one past us?????
Where is said range? If it's north FL we gonna have WORDS.
J (in middle GA)
Ok, I found the range (just north of gainesville). I must say, the disappointment just CANNOT be ignored. :))
Mind if I mention this to other South GA folks?
j
Holy crap this is turning into a party. I'll bring the grill and a box of steaks.
My mom is turning 81 on the 11th. I would rather not miss her party to attend the shoot, since I am hosting it. If we could have the full distance on the first weekend or the fourth weekend, I could be there without abandoning my mother. The first weekend is good because it is sooner, and all of you that will still be recovering from Mr. Henry's party can carpool.
There is a Master Instructors meeting on the first weekend of January so I cannot be there to instruct on that weekend.
VAshooter
I'll haul out my smoker...
any of you guys like ribs? :)
The 4th weekend is an IBC in GA. But that shouldn't affect y'alls plans.
:'(
4th weekend is the Hernando event and I am signed up for it as are / should be / better darned well be several others, so that would be no fun for us. :'(
First weekend would be rough, as we will needs many items to make this happen and also don't have OK from range for that date as far as I know.
There would be some serious logistics required to make this a reality. First, to shoot at 600 yards with iron sights requires a very large target and backer. The bull in a NRA HP 600 yard target is nearly 36" in diameter, so that it looks like the 5.5" (approx) bull at 100 yards. And then you need a backer of sufficient size to account for thems who do not already know the exact come ups for their rifle / ammo. Think 4' x 8' sheet of foam core!
Yes, it can be done with smaller backer, but as we have no target pit - the Rifleman's dance will be a "slow waltz" as it is, and if we end up with 10 shooters (about max on this small range), checking targets will be a long story that involves an open pickup truck. I am looking into suitable targets already, as well as pasters required for such targets. Also have to design a very tall target line.
I must say that I am loathe to hold this event on a weekend when Sir Willorith is unable to attend and that's not just because he has said open pickup truck and the means to make steel targets neither. ::) With the effort that he has personally expended on this program - he is well deserving of attending if he so desires.
The more I think about this idea of IstanSKS, the more I like it. Bringing FL instructors up to a higher standard of marksmanship knowledge is a worthy goal. We have been recently directed to make certain that AS does not become a "25M program" and this would certainly be a good way to assuage that concern. Also, knowing the "real time" come ups for your rifles is priceless.
We need to git the date confirmed, so that we can get everything else lined up. ItsanSKS - any other dates possible?
PH
Quote from: PHenryWe need to git the date confirmed, so that we can get everything else lined up. ItsanSKS - any other dates possible?
Gee, thought I had the date confirmed... j/k.
I completely agree- we need 100% instructor involvement in this event, from the green as grass IIT0 who hasn't yet worked an event, to the SI who will probably be SB'ing the event. Whether that means we wait until summer, or are able to get this done in the Spring, does not matter.
My ultimate goal for this idea is to be able to host our very own RBC, perhaps even at the very range that we are looking at for the 'full distance weekend'.
To that end, I feel that each of us needs to be able to 'walk the walk' prior to instructing, and it certainly wouldn't hurt to have some of those folks who are of a higher pay grade come down and show us how its done.
Now that we've effectively written off January, lets look at February:
Two events already on the books, one at the very range we are looking to use.
March, on the other hand, only has one event, and it is slated for the third weekend- plenty of wiggle room to make a full-distance shoot happen.
So lets begin *again* with the idea of setting this up in March. I will contact the range first thing tomorrow, and ensure availability, and have them erase our previous date (which was penciled in, just in case..)
Start by going over your own schedules, and selecting a weekend which will work for you in March, excluding the 27th & 28th- we should all be in Myakka anyways, right?
When you've figured out the most promising dates for you, post 'em up here. We'll get a consensus built, and then move forward with actually securing the range.
For those who have requested to take part in this event, who are not yet instructors:
This event, while technically open to anyone, is geared toward getting our instructor pool 'up to par' with regards to the instructional aspects of long-distance shooting. As such, Instructors (IIT's and RI's) will have first dibs on this event. With a shooter capacity of about 15, I expect that this event will fill up fast.
Should you be interested in becoming an Instructor, make your wishes known to the SB of your next event, score Rifleman, and then you, too, will be on the list to attend- see how this works? Wanna do full-distance days? Become an Instructor :P :---
I am available any weekend in March except when I will be working Myakka.
Ever your loyal servant,
Willorith
As per Willorith, available for anything and anywhere, another Loyal IIT.....Paul
May I suggest that "surplus ball ammo" be required, in the spirit of the Rifleman?
(Just in case, go back and read what a Rifleman is, on the rwva.org home page...)
This event, when and where scheduled, should be open for IITs/Instructors as a priority, with the mission of allowing an opportunity for instructors to learn how to run an LR component to AS.
Qualifying on a FD AQT is simply gravy for individuals who attend.
As to targets, the "D" targets will work out to any distance - 600, 1000, whatever.
For more info, check out this thread: http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=2155.0
It's on the "Shoot Boss" board, but those on here cleared for that board can bring back the buckets of good info there, and post it on this thread for all to see.
Understand there is a concept of the FD AQT, but an understanding that few facilities will offer that, so a "short LR component" is indicated in most places.
A short component is sighter groups at whatever distance the range offers - 200, 300, whatever, with instruction in "the three challenges for riflemen", etc.
the benefits of a "short LR component" is the fact it needs an hour or less, but offers 90% (at least!) of the benefits of a FD AQT.
Quote from: appalaciousMind if I mention this to other South GA folks?
Be my guest! The more the merrier. I understand that many folks will not be able to read the Florida Forum, so have interested parties PM me for details.
Still waiting to find out what dates would work in March.
Was unable to contact the range today, will try again tomorrow.
I am definitely in on this one, if March is the month that is selected. As Appalacious mentioned, there is a Central Georgia IBC the last weekend of Jan., and I also plan to attend the RBC in Ramseur Feb. 21-28. Like everyone else, I need a little "down time" between shoots to catch up on the home front, but FD is something I definitely need, especially with a corps of Instructors with whom I will be working.
You Florida Appleseeders are awesome, and we are developing a great group of Instructors in the Central Georgia to Central Florida area. You go, guys!
DdrJohn
I miight be able to make the trip in March also. SOme full distance training would be good for me as well. I might try to bring some more North GA folks with me also.
Raymon
I am interested in participating in a FD RBC also. I attended a RBC in Ramseur last year but we only got to spend a half day on the FD range. That wasn't enough....
Ray
Please re-read the first post, as I have updated it to make some changes and clarifications.
I NEED YOUR AVAILABILITY. We need to build a consensus as to what dates we can make happen.
March 27/28 are blocked out for Myakka. The other March weekends are open.
howdy
I have an expenses paid training class the weekend of the 19, I fly, they buy. This saves me money I don't have. If that is the chosen weekend, it sucks to be me, but I am resilient. I will catch up. Keep your powder dry. O0
3/20-21 is the only weekend that works for me in March.
Any weekend in March is good for me--except, of course, Mar 27-28 (Appleseed!).
Thanks for all your hard work, ItsAnSKS!
RickB
I will be tied up for most of March - could maybe squeak in the first weekend in March or first weekend in April.
PH
There was at some point some talk about who will teach the FD. I was instructed by MI Ornell in full distance. My learning has not been static since. If you need someone to help out on this event, I would be willing. Just get it on the schedule.
Coly
I too will be available in March on what ever weekend is determined. I can also be available for set up and what ever else is needed. Looking forward to seeing everyone! I must get out and practice! Larry.
As of now there is a plan to have two full distance instructor training sessions in VA. My understanding is that any AS Instructor from IIT to SI or MI is welcome. There are no firm dates yet. We have a DAR with 400 yards and primitive camping.
The sessions will include a couple of hours of classroom and then work at 100(or 200), 300, and 400 yards to get zeroes and fire for score.
There is something magical about taking your rifle with your known sight dope, adjusting for 400 yards and banging steel or punching the center of the paper with the first round.
More information will follow and I expect to see a separate topic in the Instructor section when the dates are firm.
So far, it looks like the first weekend in March will offer us maximum participation- is there anyone that CANNOT make it that weekend?
GA boys will be in Hawkinsville or Toccoa that weekend, but thats just fyi. This is ya'lls rodeo.
J
Ok let's nail it down for the first weekend in March. If Dr. John can't make it I will be disappointed. However, I believe this will be the beginning of the FL great distance one shot arn society.
First weekend in March it is, subject to final approval from the range. Will contact them tomorrow to verify availability.
Will update ASAP.
Count Steph and Terry in!
Good deal! ArnDimples
OK, the first weekend in March is the 6th and 7th. So when are we doing this?
We were just talking about this tonight...
The 6th and 7th is a go as far as I know. PM Itsy. Same sleeping arrangements as last time.
Willorith and the Parramore crew are doing up some Arn targets. :---
Did anyone come up with a round count?
Spoke with Clinnon last night. She will be there also with her Mini 14.
Round count will relatively low. Once I work up the POI I will know exact #. We will spend a couple hours in the AM doing verbal and written instruction and then move to shooting squares at distance.
The goal of this event is to get each attendee familiar with exact, real-time come-ups for their rifle and ammo, at several known distances, with sight indexes recorded for future use. All info is ammo / rifle-specific.
I want to see all Florida instructors become experts at shooting and teaching KD. We will blaze the KD trail! :--- :--- :--- :--- :---
PH
Quote from: PHenry on February 22, 2010, 01:41:51 PM
Round count will relatively low. Once I work up the POI I will know exact #. We will spend a couple hours in the AM doing verbal and written instruction and then move to shooting squares at distance.
The goal of this event is to get each attendee familiar with exact, real-time come-ups for their rifle and ammo, at several known distances, with sight indexes recorded for future use. All info is ammo / rifle-specific.
I want to see all Florida instructors become experts at shooting and teaching KD. We will blaze the KD trail! :--- :--- :--- :--- :---
PH
Oookaaay, so the goal is
more than "to get each attendee familiar with exact, real-time come-ups for their rifle and ammo, at several known distances, with sight indexes recorded for future use" - and that's good!
As in, not wasting an opportunity to let people find out
how to teach a Actual Distance POI...
It's something
every RWVA instructor should know about and
be motivated to do, whenever and wherever possible... O0
Fred,
Last weekend in Myakka, Appleseeds was once again afforded me an opportunity to learn something new. I have never considered 100 yards worthy of KD work. What's the point? Too close for HP - to far for 22LR.
Well, I was dead wrong. It worked easily as well as 200M and, it afforded us a little character improvement as well, in the form of some minor adversity, running to and from the 100 yard line to avoid delays on the 25M line. ^-^
Seriously, I got watch a man who had never held a rifle in his life, take a box stock 1022, with those odd little open sights and pull the same 6MOA group at 100 yards that he was pulling at 25M - no sight adjustment required!
The HP shooters got to see how IMC works at greater distance and a good time was had by all.
I'll never disparage 100 yard KD agin. :-[
PH
PS: AAR willst be up in a few minutes.
In his AAR for Bradford Sportsman's Farm, ItsAnSKS said,
QuoteProne position at 300 yards was made impossible due to a rise in the ground, which left us attempting the shots from sitting...
Does this mean we will not be able to shoot 300 yards (and up) from prone?
RickB
Rick-
There are a few of us blessed with the Sonn'ys special multi purpose positioning device. This allows us to lie prone and still be elevated sufficiently to gain a sight picture despite the terrain at Bradford. For those less fortunate, or those that foolishly dispensed with their multi purpose positioning device, the chaise lounge supine position will be the preferred position, cup holder optional.
There are a couple ways to deal with this issue.
We can shoot from back of open pickup trucks, or tops of vehicles to gain required height.
We can build a platform from 2x4 and plywood. ten sheets would accom. 5 shooters with 4' x 8' per shooter.
We can set up multiple targets, but shoot in relays from their stand, three at a time.
A Rifleman never sees a problem, only a challenge to be faced - an opportunity to improve his or her character through adversity.
A Rifleman persists until he or she succeeds. A Rifleman thrives on adversity!
Improvise, Adapt, Overcome in the tradition of thems who came before us.
The descendants of the Children of Liberty will not be denied!
I have go and chop some firewood now - too pumped up to sit at computer. ..:.. ..:.. ..:.. ..:..
Quote from: PHenry on February 23, 2010, 12:50:52 PM
There are a couple ways to deal with this issue.
We can shoot from back of open pickup trucks, or tops of vehicles to gain required height.
We can build a platform from 2x4 and plywood. ten sheets would accom. 5 shooters with 4' x 8' per shooter.
We can set up multiple targets, but shoot in relays from their stand, three at a time.
A Rifleman never sees a problem, only a challenge to be faced - an opportunity to improve his or her character through adversity.
A Rifleman persists until he or she succeeds. A Rifleman thrives on adversity!
Improvise, Adapt, Overcome in the tradition of thems who came before us.
The descendants of the Children of Liberty will not be denied!
I have go and chop some firewood now - too pumped up to sit at computer. ..:.. ..:.. ..:.. ..:..
the engineer in me thinks it would be much more cost and complication efficient to raise some sheets of cardboard a couple of feet than constructing something to raise the shooters a few feet.
the target line will be right in front of the berm, so no worries there.
Use the tall "T" posts and run the top wire at the very top.
Look forward to seeing all of you there! :)
I will resist the notion of raising the targets. It is fundamentally safer to shoot towards the Earth than away from it.
your concern is valid. Two things to consider
a) you will still be shooting toward the earth in two ways...
at the ranges (300+) we are speaking of, the round has long since crested, and is falling...
and the round is traveling toward a berm, which is a vertical extension of the earth...
b) We fired at raised stands this weekend at Myakka and no objection was raised and no safety issue presented itself. As we will be solidly up against a berm with this target line, raising the target line 24" will not present a danger.
10 sheets of plywood would hold 10 shooters. Would need five pickup trucks for 10 shooters.
10 sheets 4x8 plywood, 24 8' 2x4 would do it.
I was thinking this AM - I try not to, but it happens a lot.
If we placed two sheets of 3/4 plywood across back of pickup, it would allow two shooters per pickup with some care. I would estimate that about 1.5' of plywood would hang over the edge and should be strong enough to support wieght. This would be as simple as pulling sheets from back of truck and placing them on top of bed - not digging / no fastening.
We will bring supplies and I,A,&O.
I have decided that day one will be classroom and sighting in. Day two will include come ups and FD AQT for score.
PH
I have a supply of 1/2" MDO - sign painters plywood. (10) full sheets, (13) 1/2 sheets
A truck is not as stable as the earth is. It will move under recoil. Two shooters will mess with each other. Another challenge to overcome. The riflemen can fire in rifleman's cadence on alternate breaths for sustained fire from each truck - 1 aimed shot every 1-1/2 seconds.
I'll be making up pipe target stands. 8' above the Earth 18" in the Earth, sectional, (4) units, hardpoints for wire attachment. Stakes for guying, wire for target hanging.
I'll also get some post drivers made up. Who needs one? Shoot bosses and future shoot bosses. That includes you, Wiley.
I agree with Willorith--the truck idea was my first thought when I realized what ItsAnSKS had implied--then I rejected it. Even shiftng your NPOA can cause the suspension to rock. Then you have to wait for it to settle.
We'd be better off sighting in from prone at 200 yards, then doing come-ups from a bench. The zero will change from the bench but the come-ups won't.
Here's all we need to do:
- Sight in at 200 yards (from prone). Three 5-round sighter groups (for scope shooters who are having trouble). Record clicks of elevation from bottom.
- Fire one 5-round group from the bench. Measure location and record change. Adjust sights.
- Move to 100 yards. Drop elevation 3 MOA (estimated sight adjustment). Fire one 5-round group and measure location (if above or below center). Calculate and record true comeup for 100 to 200 yards.
- Adjust sights for correct comeup and shoot a second group for confirmation
- Repeat for 300, 400, and 500 yards, using the appropriate estimated comeup from the previous range.
- Total round count--65.
- At 20 minutes for each group--4 hours 20 minutes
sissies **)
Guilty ;D
Quote from: PHenry on February 24, 2010, 04:12:34 PM
sissies **)
LOL!
Guilty as well...
but for the right reasons...
it's the cardinal rule of infants and those taken to drink that you can't fall off the ground even though I have witnessed some valiant attempts by the latter group to do just that.
IN an attempt to recoup some of my Mancard credits...
Did I hear someone say we'd be needing a bench?
I does them's pretty good!
(http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg262/thaifighter/bench2.jpg)
My radial arm saw and I stand ready in the cause of liberty.
Sir Willorith, your kind offer is gladly accepted. I look forward to driving many posts on behalf of appleseed.
Attention:
I have just heardt a dirty little rumor from the grapevine - a big whig of a higher "pay grade" may afford us his presence at the first ever FL KD shoot, and I'm not just talkin' about ItsanSKS niether. ;)
A PM has been sent to everyone who has even hinted that they would be interested in attending. Please be sure to respond, so I have a good idea of how many folks will be coming. Yes, it makes a difference.
Thank You,
ItsanSKS
Is that a DeWalt case trimmer?
yep! I use it to resize 20 mike mike down to 30-06! O0
With two sheet of 4x8 plywood, 4 2x4s would space out at 2' OC and would support two shooters with ease. Place the plywood the long way down the bed and the 2x4s across the bed. Than you cut two blocks to fit inside the bed to keep them from shifting and you are good to go.
By the way, Clinnon and I will be there. ;) I used to shoot 200 yards out in Redlands, Calf. Would be good to let the old M1 reach out at 600.
you guys are killin me...
Well, the Inaugural Instructors KD Clinic is now written in the history books. It was an outstanding learning experience, one that I feel EVERY instructor should go through, as even the most experienced Instructors found themselves 'drinking from the fire hose".
The camaraderie forged over the last 3 days will carry us forward, and the lessons learned will ensure that we all can do our part to assist AS attendees become better Riflemen.
An After-Action Report for this event is forthcoming, along with pictures.
Yet again, Florida is blazing a trail for the other states to follow!
I would concur with ItsanSKS - it were excellent and we all learned a lot about FD shooting (even had a little fun - just don't let it get around).
As to every instructor, well, while we needed this, I know that there are plenty of instructors in the program who have shot out to 600 yards and also shot many a FD AQT. We needed it and we did it. For any instructor who has not shot to FD - yes, by all means this POI is just the ticket.
Shooting at 25M is great for learning the basic skills, but it does not replace shooting a D target at 500 yards in a 10MPH breeze. O0
PH
Agreed!
This was an outstanding experience that is sure to put some extra intensity on our instruction lines.
Yep, we've been there. It really does work at 500 and beyond!
It was challenging, competitive and intense. There were lots of "aha!" moments and I think everyone came away knowing a bit more about themselves and a lot more about their equipment.
I was sore and tired this morning after so much work over the weekend, but my focus was intense.
I hope we can do it again soon! :---
yall ever do an AAR on this?
Might should put it here:
http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?board=21.0
J
Why don't you just invite Wade to come down for a long distance shoot? He can park his 18 wheeler on the firing line and you can use the flatbed as a shooting platform. This was done at Davilla, TX many times.
VAshooter
This is an outstanding idea, VA! Now, how to schedule around Wades' schedule...
PM on it's way to you, Wade!
App,
No AAR as this was not a "sanctioned" event in any way. We paid for it out of pocket and used our own targets. This was a "beta" test of an idea that began with ItsanSKS. He wanted to have an instructor get together and we did that. We also improved our collective KD abilities.
So - no AAR, but if you PM me with your reg Email addy - I would be happy to send you the hand outs and the POI I used.
PH