Just wanted to let everyone know that the appleseed method REALLY works.
I went to a 500 yd range over the weekend, unfortunately due to terrain issues I couldn't even see the 400 or 500 yd targets from prone.
However, I was able to "remember" where the 400 yd target was based on foliage, etc. (I could see it from sitting).
Anyway, shooting from prone at a man sized steel resulted in no misses (I think 8 shots). Even the first shot was on since I used my 25 m zero to INDEX my rear sights (highly recommended if you have an M1 or M1a).
Only trouble I had (besides the terrain blind) was RECOIL. I really had to concentrate to get a true follow thru. And my support hand almost always lost its grip, so I had to reacquire NPOA on pretty much every shot.
Lots learned, though. and LOTS affirmed.
J
Congrats. It's always nice to confirm what you have learned. I have/had the same problem with the M1 series rifle. My solution was to get a new forward sling swivel and mount it further back on the stock where my hand can go all the way forward and it gets locked in.
Interesting thought. Got a pic?
J
It's not suggested in Fred's Guide but I spent years shooting the M1 Garand and I have very short arms. I used a paste product called "Firm Grip" to glue my hand to the stock. Actually I glued my shooting glove to the stock for my support hand and I glued my trigger hand to the stock as well. If I didn't, my trigger hand would slide back as I shot and soon I would not be able to reach the trigger.
The more I think about it, a short piece of rail mounted to the forend with an adjustable hand stop would work very well. They make the short rails to mount the AR 15 bells and whistles and the adjustable hand stops can be found on the target shooting suppliers on the web. I wouldn't use the original stock but an after market stock wouldn't harm anything. You couldn't use it in Garand Matches as it would be altering the rifle.
Have you had a chance to work an Appleseed yet. If so, give me the name of the Shoot Boss and I will contact him. You are already listed as an IBC graduate.
VAshooter
I have the same problems with the M1. Hand at the forward swivel puts me at too low of a position and gives me all sorts of issues (shoulder pocket, cheek weld), and support hand farther back will not stay put. Alot more to figure out, it seems, with this rifle than any of the others I have.
The range I shoot at conveniently has a 20" steel plate at 500, and the practiced skills learned at appleseed will most certainly put you 8/8 on that target, and a 25m zero with standard come-ups will reliably get you there. Pretty neat.
Gents,
Have some Garand experience, and more w. 50ft, 3 pos, Olympic shooting (coached my HS's team till BOE disestablished Varsity team because we were using the tools of the devil...).
Added handstop rail and adj handstop (and a butt hook) to a Ruger 10-22T; suppliers like Champion's Choice, Accuracy Intl, Neal Johnson's Gunsmithing, and Creedmoor Sports would have the rails and handstops. I've had some success using a glove for my support hand, curling it so the rifle is resting on the flat area between 1st and 2nd set of knuckles (so hand faced back toward shooter).
Might need a gunsmith to mount the rail onto the Garand stock...
Excelsior,
mad
nyrasgt
The m1 was my first rifle. I got it when I was 14 and have been shooting it for the last two years straight down here in Ramseur. I figured that I needed to master the rifle so to speak before I moved on. Initially I had the same problems that are being discussed here. It took time with the rifle to develop a technique that worked for me. Initially I was bucking into the rifle and was so tense every time I squeezed the trigger that I wasn't rolling with the recoil. It took Wildman reinforcing to me how important it was to focus on the front sight especially when shooting a high powered rifle. When I focused on that front sight I didn't know when it was going to go off and I couldn't subsequently buck or flinch. This allowed me to relax and eventually learn to roll with the recoil. Once you can do that you will be able to fire at a rifleman's cadence and not have to check your NPOA every shot. It took two years, 2400 rounds, a couple of fine rifleman to give me some advice, the beautiful 500 yard range in ramseur, and the techniques taught at Appleseed to master that rifle. Persevere and you will get it. They really are amazing rifles, couldn't have chosen a better rifle to start with.
Now off to the 03a3.....
The Kid
Quote from: VAshooter on October 15, 2009, 12:22:10 PM
It's not suggested in Fred's Guide...to glue my hand to the stock. Actually I glued my shooting glove to the stock for my support hand and I glued my trigger hand to the stock as well. If I didn't, my trigger hand would slide back as I shot and soon I would not be able to reach the trigger.
VA, it's not suggested because the Guide is about field shooting, and not competition shooting. It's unlikely anyone will have a can of Firm Grip with him in the woods (altho I guess it
could happen...). At Camp Perry, like everyone else, I used spray glue until I figured it was 'cheating' just like the strait-jacket/girdle shooting jackets are 'cheating' - at least, in terms of finding out how YOU shoot, as opposed to how you can shoot, if given every aid allowed under the rules. (Yep, I'm a secret non-conformist. >:D)
I thought I was stretching things in the Guide to even allow for the issue cloth shooting jacket. But it is practical for field use, even if it would be much improved with more pockets and a collar - and maybe roll-up sleeves. I tried to special order those improvements, but couldn't get the supplier to agree to add the modifications. Additional money made no difference!
The M1 Garand is a fine rifle. In the summer of 1964 I shot a 25m group in basic training from the squatting position that you could cover with a dime. Groups that small from a military issue training rifle and standard ball ammo are simply luck as the best you can expect would be 2-3 MOA (maybe even 4-5 MOA in an issue rifle which has been cleaned, prob thousands of times, from the muzzle without any kind of rod guide - I once saw one that would not group better than 3 FEET at 25 m - I had to shoot it myself, just to prove it wouldn't do better).
But part of the Rifleman spirit, it seems to me, is taking your equipment as you find it, and making it work.
The Rifleman is supposed to have the skills to "pick up any rifle, fire one sighting shot, and hit a target 500 yards away..."
That may be the goal as much as the reality, but I doubt many of us would agree to be that 500 yd target.
FWIW.
I think I like DwayneH's idea the best. Move the swivel back some.
J
If you go the route of adding a short rail to the bottom of your stock here is a sling swivel that you can mount anywhere on the rail to work as your front sling swivel.
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/Midwest-Industries-MCTAR-06-p/mctar-06.htm
Millions have learned to shoot the Garand with out mods, sling up tight and relax when you shoot. Like the Kid said roll with it don't fight the recoil. A little weight in the storage compartment of the stock will help some . the plastic stocks are lighter and will recoil more, stay with wood for now. Dry fire will help and lots of range time will solve the problem. If you can come to Ramsuer we have lots of Garands on line at most of the shoots
Quote from: hawkeye on April 08, 2010, 08:53:27 PM
Millions have learned to shoot the Garand with out mods, sling up tight and relax when you shoot. Like the Kid said roll with it don't fight the recoil. A little weight in the storage compartment of the stock will help some . the plastic stocks are lighter and will recoil more, stay with wood for now. Dry fire will help and lots of range time will solve the problem. If you can come to Ramsuer we have lots of Garands on line at most of the shoots
So do you put your hand up against the swivel? (Like in your avatar)
J
I watched a WWII training video that instructed you to get your hand all the way against the swivel. I tried it, and my support arm stayed in place but postion wise I was way too low and it was uncomfortable.
You could try it and see if it works for you.
Dry fire practice just to give it a go, doesn't cost anything. A couple 5 or 10-shot strings wouldn't cost much. Then you would know for sure.
Just my .02 for what its worth.
If you can't relax and ride the rifle, then get some skateboard tape (it's like sand paper tape but real ruff) and maybe wear a glove, any kind of glove. You may not always have the glove for field shooting (I never do, ever), but the tape will stay there and help lock your hand from sliding. You can even lay it over checkered hand guards - it is sticky.
I've tried this and it's HUGE! Comes right off too (maybe with some old varnish chips depending - no biggie).
This is a problem on old mil surp bolties with hasty slings. It's ultimately a matter of position, breathing, and trigger squeeze. Like everything in life.
I let my hand move up to the swivel but to be honest it is a personal thing like Vashooter was saying. If you arms are too short then your hand will have to come back some to be comfortable. Like Hawkeye said, the rifle isn't the problem and it needs no changes, the shooter is most likely the problem. How many times have you seen people come to Appleseeds with the $4000 Bambi slayer 3000s and they can't hold a 5 moa group. Learn to shoot the rifle before you make changes to it. Your hand wont slip if you roll with the recoil. You just need some time with the rifle like I said in my previous posts.
TK
I remember at our RBC (2/07 in Ramseur) one of the guys had an issue with short arms and an M1A. The instructors ended up taping a wood block on the bottom of the stock for him to slide his hand up against and it worked fine.
This doesn't mean I'm suggesting you do that on yours, it just means that it helps folks with short arms get into a stable comfortable position.
I've checked this thread out several times and I keep thinking about some way to rig up a sling to stop your hand. Since I don't have this problem I haven't really looked at ways to beat it on my own, but the sling idea just keeps working on me.
If you had two sling clamps (don't know what they are called - its the piece that clamps the two slides of the sling together so it stays adjusted) and you spaced them on the front of the sling so that the one closest to the front swivel acted at your "stop" and the second clamp was adjusted to give your hand enough room to fit between the two sides of the sling but tight enough to keep it in place on your hand - would it work correctly while keeping your hand in the right spot?? Just wondering. Normally the two side of the sling are against the back of your hand but this way the outside would be against the back of your hand and the inside of the sling would be between your palm and the stock.
Quote from: Old Dog on April 13, 2010, 10:27:05 PM
Normally the two side of the sling are against the back of your hand but this way the outside would be against the back of your hand and the inside of the sling would be between your palm and the stock.
I think that would create more of a gap between the open support hand and the bottom of the stock. Maybe lead to clutching too.
If you can't reach the forward swivel, try angling your body (in prone)more sharply away from the line of the barrel direction. This can have the effect of bringing the rifle closer to your support side hand and arm, and may shorten the distance from support hand to swivel.
No I don't put my hand against the sling swivel. I use a tight sling and my hand is held against the stock that way. With practice it will happen, IMHO doing a mod this soon in your shooting this rifle is a short cut to learning the correct way to a good position. Relax and recoil with the rifle your nose touching the receiver and a tight cheek weld. Yes you will get beat with the stock but you will learn to ride the recoil, it works. Get a shooting jacket the Marine Corp type is cheap and works well, it has pads that reduce felt recoil and help hold your sling in place. I don't have a picture of me in prone but this is my sitting and my sons , it was muddy so my feet aren't flat. http://www.fredsm14stocks.com/catalog/acc.asp