I thought the temps were supposed to cool off just a little in September in TN! I was mistaken as we found out this past weekend, as temps were up in the 90's! Well, I guess it was cooler than the 100's that we had this summer!
I was lucky enough to get to check out the range on Friday evening when I arrived into Puryear. DonD, (otherwise known affectionatley as "dirtbag", as we will reveal later how he happened upon that status! ;) ) met me at the range and showed me around. First of all, much applause to Don and his fellow club members who helped out in preparing and setting up for the event. They had put together about 60 targets, numbered and ready to go!! YEA!!!! The range was great! We had 4 bays to use with 6 1/2 ft railroad ties separating each bay. Wood chips adorned the range wich made for a soft bed to settle your matt upon.
Fred, Student, Drew (MightyMouse soon to be), DonD and myself were there to instruct. We had 35 shooters on the line Saturday. We began registration early and was finished up by 0845. We gathered everyone up at 0900 for orientation. Fred covered a little bit of history and RWVA's mission. We covered the safety rules and explained a brief outline of what they could expect that day.
Down at the line we went over range commands and fielded some more questions. Then we started off with the Red Coat. We had one shooter who got all 3 rounds in every stage and got the 250 yd qualifier! Great job Carl!
The morning was spent covering the usual of the 6 steps, NPOA, IMC, and the prone position and sling use. Groups varied from 4MOA to well, let's just say over 10 MOA. We broke for lunch in the luxury of an air conditioned club house!! :o Hot dogs, hamburgers, cheeseburgers we ready and waiting for our hungry bellies! After lunch Fred gave a great history talk. (strategically planned in the comfort of the AC!) Down at the line we covered the six steps again, just to get us all out of the carb meltdown from lunch! We shot the Classification AQT (which I will refer to as the green target because it is easier ;D)and got in a Q&DAQT before the end of the day.
Day one produced 3 riflemen with a few others knocking on the door! We ended the day with another Red Coat and saw much improvement from the morning.
Day two brought about 24 shooters back! We started the moring with another Red Coat. Once again, some improvement from the day before but still lots of room to do better. We introduced ball and dummy. Shooters got the chance to help and coach their fellow appleseeders. Bad habits were revealed and shooters and coaches worked to get rid of them. We then went into rapid fire cadence drills givine the shooters a generous 30 seconds to get 10 rounds in the one inch sqare. We decided to have the shooters shoot a green target to get them in the AQT frame of mind the move right into the AQT. I explained to the shooters that after the AQT the instructors would go over the results and divide the line into two groups. One group was going to know distance while the other group got to work on getting their groups smaller.
Lunch was welcomed once again with hungry bellies and the relief of a little AC! Fred looked over the targets and borke the shooters into two groups based on the results. Eleven shooters went up to known distance and the rest got to stay with me! (Student, MightMouse, and DonD helped out Fred at KD for 1/2 hour then came back to help me out). I decided ball and dummy was the perfect drill. Once again this revealed some bad habits that didn't want to stay away. We then did some one inch squares. Next we worked on NPOA drills. We shot another green target and noticed that everyone was pretty tired and hot. We decided that we would end the day with another red coat target.
Day two produced 4 more riflemen! A total of 7 for the weekend! Kimball, the club president decided that he was going to stay knocking on that door with a 209! ;)
We did see lots of improvement with many of the shooters by the end of today. Everyone seemed to enjoy themselves and listened to what we were trying to teach them. Many promised to work hard at home towards that rifleman score.
Great job by all the instructors! Once again a special thanks to DonD for organizing the event and having a great turnout!
To all looking for pictures.....sorry to say but not one of us brought a camera!
Oh yea, almost forgot to tell you...how a retired teached, DonD got to be known as "dirtbag", remember I said affectionately earlier!!
Don was calling the line during the green target. We were on stage two. A whole 50 seconds, right?!
He commanded Cease Fire, Cease Fire, Cease Fire....Unload and Clear. I looked down the line and noticed everyone was still sitting, not one shooter was moving. I checked with Drew to make sure that I heard correctly, I did. It took a couple of seconds then the shooters unslung and safed the rifles. It was then that we learned that Don gave them a whole 21 seconds! :o oooppps!
I guess that made up for the all times that we gave them extra time!
That's a "bunch" of rifleman scores! Those folks in Tennesee must hold themselves to a higher standard than in most states. I don't think I've been to an appleseed yet that had that many rifleman scores fired over the two days.
Great job. Hope to see some pictures as the other folks chime in here.
I would like to first of all thank the crew who came to HCGC for their excellent instruction and dedication to the Appleseed project.
I also appreciate the kind remarks and detailed description about our club.
DragonWood, the lady with the photographic memory.
But how did I get labeled with the name "Carl"? He is young and handsome and I'm old and...................... Well, "Old"!!!
Being older than dirt I well remember the day Pear Harbor was bombed and the day that my Dad was sent to the Pacific Theater to protect us from that threat. I also remember anxiously awaiting each letter because we then knew that he was still OK.
I thank God that he was fortunate enough to be one of the 9 of his company that went to the Pacific that returned safely to Kentucky.
What I am saying is that "Freedom Isn't Free"; it is fought for and won. From the moment you gain it, someone, somewhere, is formulating a plan to take it from you. It has always been that way. It always will be.
This is why I feel that the Appleseed project is not a marksmanship training clinic; it is a program that is "Absolutely Necessary" in order to prepare Americans to preserve our way of life.
It is "fun" to prepare with others to defend freedom because we have the "freedom" to do so.
Now DragonWood, the real "Carl" took lots of pictures at the HCGC appleseed shoot and they can be found here.
http://picasaweb.google.com/HenryCountyPictures/Appleseed
We have our own club website and forum and invite everyone to visit us. Our Club website is;
http://www.hcgc.net
Access to the forum is PW protected because of spamming (I assume you all know the kind of stuff I mean). When you get the popup window use hcgc for a user name and net for a password. You can then browse the forum and register a user name and password on the forum.
Thanks to all again for all of your wonderful instruction and we are eagerly looking forward to our next "Appleseed".
Would luv to see a pic of DragonWood and "Fred" side by side labeled
The Beauty and the Beast ;D
Which ones the beauty ??? ??? :P
Rob
Come now, that is a very un-gallent comment, and way beneath you, I bet.
I wouldn't want to compete with DW even in the "inner beauty" category, much less the "external beauty" category... ;D
By the way, the word is spreading at Appleseeds - if you see someone who looks and acts like a movie star - it ISN'T Fred - you can take that to the bank!
Quote from: TwoGlock on September 24, 2007, 10:54:30 AM
What I am saying is that "Freedom Isn't Free"; it is fought for and won. From the moment you gain it, someone, somewhere, is formulating a plan to take it from you. It has always been that way. It always will be.
That is the money quote - going to save that one. (with credit where credit is due of course)
Quote from: checksix on September 24, 2007, 01:03:15 PM
Quote from: TwoGlock on September 24, 2007, 10:54:30 AM
What I am saying is that "Freedom Isn't Free"; it is fought for and won. From the moment you gain it, someone, somewhere, is formulating a plan to take it from you. It has always been that way. It always will be.
That is the money quote - going to save that one. (with credit where credit is due of course)
Feel Free.
If enough people began to feel that way we will cease to be known as "The United States of Amnesia".
As one of the instructors at the Puryear AS I really can't add much to DW's report.
I would like to mention that about half of the shooters showing came from the local club. Not only that members (Dirt bag Don to name one) of their club actually sought us out to bring the program to their club. The club was very enthusiastic about the program. I think a seed has fallen in fertal soil.
Their club president actually came out on both days shooting his M1A (a worn M1A not a safe Queen!). But missing Rifleman by a point. He will be a Rifleman soon. Running a gun club!?!? Can you believe it?
I was also gladened to see several parents with their children. Even one mother, father, son team showed up shooting matching AR-15's.
It was good to see a diverse groop of people attending.
I feel we will see a few Instructors out of this bunch.
I was proud to have been at the 1st AS in Ramsure in Feb of '06.
But I am prouder to have gotten the oportunity to instruct at the 1st AS in my home stat of TN.
Makes me proud to be a "Volunteer"
Makes me proud to be a "Volunteer American teaching other volunteer Americain."
Great first real dip in the pool.
Great job by all.
Student
Great report and pictures! Appleseeds are like going to the dog pound for me, where you just wanna take them ALL home. I just want to go to ALL of them! Would like to have been there. Very nice range, and what must be a first: Range prez is a Rifleman! Good job guys! JB
Dog pound, lol.
Sounds like a fun and educational event. Nice to hear about the mom-dad-son team. That's GOOD!
Good rifleman numbers and good retention for Sunday. Sorry I missed this one-- >:(
OTOH, see ya'll in Kingsport ;D
SoM
Here is an interesting tidbit on the Mom/Dad/Son team. The son (a teenager) shot rifleman the first day! Dad followed on day 2! Mom is working hard and with practice and perseverance will outshoot them both! DW
Man I wanted to be there! I lost my job a few months ago and the pesos are just too few and far between now.
I'll be there the next time, assuming I'm not in the unemployment line :)
Digiears
TwoGlock....
My sincere apologies! Gene, that is! Let me give credit where credit is due, Congratulations belong to Gene, as it was HE who shot all 3 rounds in every stage and got the head shot at 250 yds!
I will give you that you are "older" but no less handsome! ;)
I do remember your response when Fred asked you how you did it....You said that it took you coming to range 3 days a week to practice.
Once again, great job! DW
Quote from: ken grant on September 24, 2007, 12:40:07 PM
Would luv to see a pic of DragonWood and "Fred" side by side labeled
The Beauty and the Beast ;D
Now, are we going by looks, or by how tough they are? Because if it is the latter, you might have to reverse it ;D
Great job DW! Thanks for your time and effort, look forward to working with you in November. ;D
Quote from: DragonWood on September 24, 2007, 09:07:56 PM
TwoGlock....
I will give you that you are "older" but no less handsome! ;)
Hey DragonWood, no apology needed or expected but flowers will get you everything.
I'm the fellow who should get a plaque for the most mistakes made. Biggest mistake was that I did not realize when I had enough heat in the sun. You and the entire crew did a superb job and we are looking forward to your next visit.
Quote from: student on September 24, 2007, 05:21:24 PM
As one of the instructors at the Puryear AS I really can't add much to DW's report.
You added a lot to "The Team" and what a great team it was.
Notes from an Appleseed
So, you've been to your first Appleseed. Humbling, right? Not quite as easy as you thought it would be? Or are you a bit more rusty than you thought? Or perhaps you really had no idea what marksmanship really entailed.
I just returned from my first Appleseed, in Puryear, Tennessee. (It won't be my last.) And no, I didn't make Rifleman, but if there were such an award, I might have gotten the Golden Spatula. There were some thirty-odd shooters on the first day, a few less on the second, plus some folks who came just for the Sunday session. Great folks- I doubt you could find another group of people as nice as rifle shooters (shotgun shooters, on the other hand....) Allow me to offer some observations, some drawn from my own experience, some drawn from others.
Know your rifle- how it loads, how it operates, and how to keep it running. Loading is often done from awkward positions. Have a buddy with a reloading press make some dummy cartridges for you. Leave out the primers and powder, then drill holes in the case so you can tell at a glance that it's not a live round. Practice loading from prone, sitting, and standing. Learn ahead of time how the sights operate; (clockwise for left windage, forward to add elevation, for example.) Few things are more frustrating than to fire a perfect group that's off of the target because you ran your sights down instead of up.
Practice from position and make sure that you can use your equipment in all positions. For example, the scope which is perfect from the standing position may not give you enough eye relief in sitting or prone when you're further up on the comb of the stock.
Speaking of scopes, understand that a telescope does NOT help you shoot better- it helps you SEE better. As a shooting aid, scopes are a mixed bag. Most people who were using scopes had huge variable-power models. I didn't do a survey, but I'd have made a bet that many of those were cranked all the way up to 7 or 9 or 12 power. The problem here is that the scope accentuates all of your errors. Every tremor, every wobble, every breath looks like a seismic shift when seen through that high magnification. The tendency is to try to force the gun to fire as the reticle dances across the target, which is not exactly conducive to good accuracy.
Another overlooked factor is the trigger. A rifle with a poor trigger can be used accurately, but it becomes a real chore to do so. I saw many rifles on the line which have reputations for poor triggers- whether those deficiencies had been corrected I cannot say. A gritty, spongy, or creepy trigger will always be difficult to shoot well, because you'll never be able to achieve the ideal "surprise break." We don't notice our horrible triggers when we shoot from the bench, but in position shooting it becomes a major factor.
Remember that the first item on the "things to bring" checklist is a teachable attitude. If you already know it all, why aren't you teaching? If your equipment, form, position and execution are all perfect, why don't you have the Rifleman patch? Be open-minded about changing things that aren't working, and concentrate on the execution of those things that are.
Finally, a word about "gaming." I understand economizing. I understand the value of a trainer, especially a sub-caliber. I understand that .22LR is cheaper than 7.62x51. But seriously folks- if you're shooting an Appleseed with a rimfire because you think it'll be an easy path to Rifleman status, you're playing games, cheating yourself and cheapening the whole experience. And you're missing the whole point of learning to be a Rifleman, which is preparing for the possibility of taking up arms to defend Liberty. If, Heaven forfend, that day ever comes, you'll need a fighting rifle, not a rule-beater.
So there you have it. A word of warning though- this is addictive. I'm already thinking of when I can get to another Appleseed. And once I get that coveted badge (through persistence), I'll have to try it with a bolt gun- or maybe even my 94 Winchester!
I have to respectfully disagree with you on the rimfire issue, Spatulaman.
If you learn how to shoot with a rimfire, like so many young hunters, there is nothing wrong with that. Using a .22 will help develop your skills as a shooter. I understand your position, but using a .22 at an Appleseed is like using training wheels on a bicycle. You eventually remove the crutches after a while and move on to bigger bores, where you then work on flinching if that becomes an issue.
Its all about baby steps, you crawl before you walk, and walk before you run. Just don't keep crawling even if it gets you where you need to be, always strive to become better.
I fear that we shall have to agree to disagree.
As Fred put it Sunday afternoon (and I'm paraphrasing here) " Folks, this is not about target shooting. This is about preparing to take up arms in defense of liberty and your country...."
To my ear, that means a fighting rifle is the required equipment. Re-read my initial post. I made no disparaging comments towards those who are learning and still in the "training wheels" stage, to use your analogy.
My gripe is with those who may be using RF cartridges, not for the sake of economy or to develop fundamentals, but in order to avoid the issues of recoil, blast and report in pursuit of a higher score. That kind of thinking and behaviour is what turned IPSC into a gamer's equipment race, rather than a serious tactical training program. I would not wish to see so worthy a project as Appleseed to fall to the same low fate....
Speaking as someone who attended an Appleseed and an RBC with trusty old M1A and is falling more in love with the M1s the more I handle them, carry them and shoot them I like shooting the Ruger 10/22 with Tech Sights.
Maybe I'm all alone on this one but when I'm into it I do not really know the big boys are recoiling. I can shoot upwards of 200 rnds. in a day and never have a mark on my shoulder. When I get down in a good sling supported prone position I've lost track of whether I'm firing my 10/22 or my M1 Garand.
You can learn the 6 steps, learn to how to find your NPOA and even shoot rifleman with a .22. All of that experience translates directly to your centerfire rifle. Then the only difference is recoil (and maybe a little bit of mechanice for the saftey, the mag changes, and ???
I still maintain (for me anyway) that when I'm concentrating on that front sight and where it is on the target I really don't feel the recoil.
Folks need to learn. Folks need to insure they have sufficient ammo saved back for their centerfire rifles. If a .22 isn't the best way to do both I don't know what is.
We ain't here to disagree over which caliber works best for learning to shoot a rifle. We're here to figure out how to wake up the people than can be reached and teach them to shoot their rifles so that when they need to use them they'll be ready.
If the centerfire rifle is best for you that's great. I like mine, too.
As paul Simon said in "50 ways to leave your lover"
"Furthermore I hope my meaning won't be lost or misconstrued, but I'll repeat myself, at the risk of being rude...."
If you're learning, fine. If you can't afford CF ammo, fine. If you have a physical disability that prevents you from using a CF, fine. If you don't own a CF rifle, fine. If you find at the last minute that you can go, and don't have time to load or buy CF ammo, fine. If TSHTF, and all you can grab is a RF, fine. BUT if you are using a RF because you are simply in pursuit of a higher score, if the prime desiderata of the event is to post the highest score and you think the path to that end is by using a RF, then you've lost sight of the objective, which is serious training for a deadly serious possibility.
But enough of this- I'd rather have a RF shooter who "knows what he is about" at my side than a doofus with a high-speed, whiz-bang, low-drag CF and piles of ammo, who can't shoot.
The high score at 25 yds. ain't worth much if you can't "translate" it into a high score at full distance. Many Appleseeds (if conducted where full distance shooting is possible) have long range shooting during the afternoon on Sunday. The whole idea of 25 yards is:
learn the basics
the score at 25 yds. demonstrates the basics have been learned and are being applied
you can do this at just about any range or in any farm field (or back yard)
If you go to an RBC you'll also get to shoot an AQT at full distance (pretty tough with a .22 - but what your learned at 25 meters with your .22 WILL prove true at longer ranges - BTDT).
At this point I really don't think we've gotten to we've gotten to the "gaming" point. Folks are still way too serious about this (hope it stays that way).
Have good one. Maybe I can make it down there next year for an Appleseed.
Interesting that the RF comments have generated some feedback, while my other comments have gone unremarked....
Quote from: Spatulaman on September 30, 2007, 06:52:18 PM
Interesting that the RF comments have generated some feedback, while my other comments have gone unremarked....
I think that's because everyone agrees with you on the other comments. ;D
BTW, I don't think anyone else has said it yet, Welcome Aboard!
Let's work together to get our fellow Americans off the couch and to the range!
spatulaman i agree if you can use iron sites do so, if not put a scope on it. Yes it is important to know your rifle, but for some it just not possible(new rifle) however if you come with a teachable attitude you will learn, may not achieve rifleman score but you will see improvement.
The trend toward .22 is economic as referenced in other AARs, i shoot .22 but i own a M1a,several bolt guns(mil-surplus) but end up shooting .22, i have seen gaming when i shot cowboy action years ago, this is night and day difference betwen the two,also you are only competing aginst yourself not others. P.S i shoot my centerfires as often as possible however the grin factor is .22
Now, I'm one that thinks you need to shoot BOTH a .22 and a Centerfire.
I've got quite a varied past as a shooter. I've shot Bench Rest (competition), Smallbore, Battle Rifles and I have to qualify with an M16A2 every year.
I'm no "expert" in any of these area, but competent in them, and that's enough.
Spatulaman is 100% right about what he's saying. There's many valid reasons for shooting a .22 RF. But, "gaming your scores" flat out isn't one of those valid reasons. Practicing to improve your Centerfire shooting is valid. Saving money, so you can shoot more is valid. Using a .22 for initial learning is valid. Start using a .22 to "game your scores", and when you do a Full Distance AQT, you WILL get surprised, if you don't practice with that Centerfire.
I will also say that the HARDEST competition I've done is probably Smallbore. Shooting thos TINY targets at 50 feet, with a tricked out bolt gun is harder than you think it is.
Now, a few words about scopes. Yes, some of those rifles have fairly powerful optics on them. 2 of my 10/22 loaners are scoped. 1 with a 4X Simmons, the other with a V8 (2.5-8) Weaver. I always suggest keeping that V8 turned down to 2.5X, and they usually listen.
The nice thing here is that no one is really arguing.
Spatula(:)), it's unlikely anyone will be 'gaming' Appleseed because, as M1A4ME says, it's not a competition, except maybe with yourself to try and shoot a rifleman score. Even more, we only let you come to two Appleseeds before we ask you to get out of the deck chair and help us run and expand the program.
As Muddog says, RF was singled out because we are working hard to get people used to the notion of learning marksmanship with a .22 - because we want to keep the costs down so that a maximum number of people can attend.
Therefore, any hint of disparagement of .22 RF will generate responses - and I know you did not mean or want to imply disparagement, that your intent was to point out that none of us wants Appleseed to go the way other shooting programs have gone - but, as said above, there's little danger of that, so the well-intentioned comments about .22 were not really necessary...
So all is well that ends well, is my motto.
PS: I thought your post made for very worthwhile and enjoyable reading. Maybe you'd like to write more about your personal experience of that weekend, as I'm not the only one who would be interested. How about it?
Spat:
Understand your thoughts on gaming. Having shot IPSC and IDPA, been there first hand! I am struggling with my choice of smoke pole for the Lexington shoot. My step kids are shooting properly configured 10/22s, I have a dedicated 22lr upper for my AR (this is my HP practice gun), I also have an M1 Carbine, a Garand, and Mauser 8mm.
Seems that the Mauser would be the Ironman gun (thing slaps me silly) and the Carbine might be the gamer - 30 cal holes, light recoil.
We will have both 25m and 300yds at Lexington. I think I am going to shoot the 22 version of the AR at 25m, then switch to the regular 223 upper. I can focus on the fundamentals at 25m and save some $$, then launch pills at 300.
I jumped in here because I've thought lots about the issue. Perhaps my thought process will help others. Maybe I'm a little different because I shoot 223 lots of other times (HP & IPSC), this works out. If I never shot full caliber, it might be "proper" to shoot 223 at appleseed. But, to get trigger time and not go broke...
Also, hope you can make it up here next weekend. Shouldn't be as hot!
QuoteAnd once I get that coveted badge (through persistence), I'll have to try it with a bolt gun- or maybe even my 94 Winchester!
I haven't tried it with a lever-action, yet; but it can be done with an Enfield!
QuoteIf you learn how to shoot with a rimfire, like so many young hunters, there is nothing wrong with that. Using a .22 will help develop your skills as a shooter. I understand your position, but using a .22 at an Appleseed is like using training wheels on a bicycle. You eventually remove the crutches after a while and move on to bigger bores, where you then work on flinching if that becomes an issue.
Its all about baby steps, you crawl before you walk, and walk before you run. Just don't keep crawling even if it gets you where you need to be, always strive to become better.
Couldn't have said it better myself.
QuoteFolks need to learn. Folks need to insure they have sufficient ammo saved back for their centerfire rifles. If a .22 isn't the best way to do both I don't know what is.
Unless I'd said that, that is.
QuoteBUT if you are using a RF because you are simply in pursuit of a higher score
Then that IS a problem, you're right. I have found (and maybe it's just me) that it's harder to shoot scaled-down 25m targets with a .22 well than to hit full-sized targets with a .308. The .22 will teach you follow-through, since it takes a little longer to clear the barrel than a .308 does.
QuoteQuote from: Spatulaman on Today at 05:52:18 PM
Interesting that the RF comments have generated some feedback, while my other comments have gone unremarked....
I think that's because everyone agrees with you on the other comments.
Yep.
QuoteSo all is well that ends well, is my motto.
I thought it was "Why are you still dragging wood?!"
That's what
I heard him say the most....
Quote from: Fred on September 30, 2007, 09:46:12 PM
PS: I thought your post made for very worthwhile and enjoyable reading. Maybe you'd like to write more about your personal experience of that weekend, as I'm not the only one who would be interested. How about it?
I'd be pleased to write a longer piece in the very near future. Look for it in the next couple of days.
I will also say that the HARDEST competition I've done is probably Smallbore. Shooting thos TINY targets at 50 feet, with a tricked out bolt gun is harder than you think it is.
Nickle, try International Air sometime. The 10 ring is 1mm in size and must be completely obliterated to count as a 10. Men's division is 60 shots in 2 hours, all from standing at 10 meters. Even with pants, coat, boots and the rest of the equipment, still very demanding.
Agreed on the Air Rifle. I haven't done it myself, but I know that it makes Smallbore look EASY.
Nickel or Spatula
Either of you worked out the MOA equivilant to the air rifle bulls at 10 m or the small bore bull at 50 feet?
Student
Quote from: student on October 02, 2007, 12:09:54 AM
Nickel or Spatula
Either of you worked out the MOA equivalent to the air rifle bulls at 10 m or the small bore bull at 50 feet?
Student
Student,
Don't know about the air rifle, have not messed with it.
As far as the 50' American target, the range rule is pretty much 4 clicks per ring on the bullseye when you are making sight corrections.
Working it out mathematically, it comes out to 0.015" per MOA.
Buckshot
I have a few thoughts that I would like to share. Maybe you will want to disregard them because Fred called me a slacker, and it is probably true. Of course you may want to know why Fred thinks I am a slacker before you disregard my opinions.
It seems that some are surprised that there were seven new rifleman scores from Puryear. We like to shoot in Tennessee! So why would one be surprised that we do it well?
A few months ago a couple of the local club members asked if anyone would like to speed a weekend learning a little about rifles and a little about history. Remember paragraph two--we like shooting. We even had a couple history buffs and that number seemed to have risen by several since Fred's talk after lunch. The Puryear Appleseed was on the schedule.
We asked what is an Appleseed, what equipment we would need, and who would benefit from it. Over time we got an idea about the program. We discussed mats and carpet, different sights, number of rounds needed, and rifle type. We wanted to know "who is Fred". We talked about elbow pads, sunscreen, and what we should expect to learn. And we asked our two former Appleseeders about rifles and ammo again.
Our former Appleseeders figured out fairly quickly that cheap and tame 22 ammo and any sighted rifle was a good answer to get more people to try an Appleseed. And isn't more people the goal? The young people (and we had several) could handle the rim fire and I guess you could call the rest of us cheap. No one ever asked what rifle was "needed to make rifleman". We like to shoot and we would like to do it better.
I had 10/22 training rifle long before I heard about Project Appleseed. I got it so I could practice more by reducing the cost. I had the opinion that what works with a rim fire rifle would work with a center fire rifle. It is similar to Fred's theory that what works at 25 meters will work at full distance. I haven't found either to be in error.
I met DragonWood Friday evening as I was testing my center fire backup rifle. This may have aided in her giving my name instead of Gene as the first perfect Redcoat score on Saturday. The center fire with iron sights produced a decent target. I even tried it for the first Redcoat Sunday. I scored exactly the same on all my Redcoat targets regardless of the rifle during the weekend. I missed exactly one shot on a 200/300 and the head every time--don't tell Fred.
Fred decided that I was a slacker as he walked by and I had a bunch of decent groups with a flyer. He pointed to the flyer and asked what happened. He then said I was a slacker "because it was obvious that I could do better". He later declared an entire group of us slackers after seeing the targets from 200 yards. We were getting a bit sloppy partly due to a weekend in the heat. The fifteen year of from the family of shooters was even off with a score of 49 from standing at 100 after his perfect 50 from sitting at 200. So I am just one among a group of slackers--seven of us with new rifleman patches.
Quote from: student on October 02, 2007, 12:09:54 AM
Nickel or Spatula
Either of you worked out the MOA equivilant to the air rifle bulls at 10 m or the small bore bull at 50 feet?
Student
You know, I never measured one, and I quit shooting Smallbore years ago. I think I'm going to have to scrounge a target from somewhere and measure it.
It is good to be from TN where people like to shoot.
Unfortunatly from the # of Appleseeds we have schedualed it seems few of US are interested in learning to shoot well.
It seems that few of US care about learning to shoot with a purpose.
Perhaps WE are on the path to change that.
It was great to meet fellow Volunteers. Help us spread this around.
We need, once again, to see an America that has "Men who know what they are about".
Thanks for being part of that.
Student
Quote from: Fred on September 30, 2007, 09:46:12 PM
The nice thing here is that no one is really arguing.
Spatula(:)), it's unlikely anyone will be 'gaming' Appleseed because, as M1A4ME says, it's not a competition, except maybe with yourself to try and shoot a rifleman score. Even more, we only let you come to two Appleseeds before we ask you to get out of the deck chair and help us run and expand the program.
As Muddog says, RF was singled out because we are working hard to get people used to the notion of learning marksmanship with a .22 - because we want to keep the costs down so that a maximum number of people can attend.
Therefore, any hint of disparagement of .22 RF will generate responses - and I know you did not mean or want to imply disparagement, that your intent was to point out that none of us wants Appleseed to go the way other shooting programs have gone - but, as said above, there's little danger of that, so the well-intentioned comments about .22 were not really necessary...
So all is well that ends well, is my motto.
PS: I thought your post made for very worthwhile and enjoyable reading. Maybe you'd like to write more about your personal experience of that weekend, as I'm not the only one who would be interested. How about it?
I don't see any argument. Different points of view, certainly.
Same reason as we have Ford's, Chevy and.......... Well you get the point.
I also own some larger caliber hunting riles, 260 Remington, 270 Winchester, 308 Winchester, and 30/06, the 260 Remington being my favorite hunting caliber BTW.
So why is 80% of the rounds that I fire done with the 22LR?
For me it economy of time, money and energy. (Remember, I'm 73 and all are in short supply)
Economy of Money. The math is surely simple now with the cost of ammo.
Economy of time. I don't have to spend time picking up brass, cleaning cases, cleaning primer pockets, trimming cases, reloading the stuff, and cleaning a 22 RF requires much less time and energy at the end of the day.
My major problem is not my lack of ability to absorb recoil and recover sight alignment and sight picture. My major problem is being able to hold in the target area during standing and to get into position for sitting and prone. Most everyone is already sending rounds downrange by the time I can get into position. I usually rush the first shot because I am thinking "I've got to get to the shooting because I'm running out of time". Consequently steps 1 - 6 do not get the time devoted to them they need, especially in sitting.
Yes, I can score better most of the time with 22LR, but as 22 LR scores improve so do my CF scores.
With my first real range time with the 22 trainer only a couple of weekends ago, I can honestly say that 22 AQT shooting is as humbling or more so with the 22s. Taking the time and money to do some M1A shooting last weekend and seeing ragged hole groups at 25 m was rewarding in that the 22 brought my skills to that level. I have not shot an AQT with centerfire since, but suspect that the scores would be averaging higher than the 22.
No doubt that a Rifleman NEEDS actual distance experience, but the 22 at 25 meters will give a Rifleman the fundamental skills needed to get the most of every CF round at actual distance. Once shooting at actual distance, the Rifleman will learn some extra information for such shooting (come-ups, wind doping, etc.) as well as a greater appreciation of the 22s at 25m.
My feeling is that given the choice, for a score reason, I would chose the centerfire everytime.
How long is the 22 bullet in the barrel of a 10/22 after hammer fall, and how long for a 308 or 223? Since the 308 and 223 are moving nearly twice as fast at the muzzle, I would think that the 22 is in the barrel nearly twice as long. Plenty of time to "show case" the shooter's misapplication of the 6 steps to firing a shot. Humbling indeed. :P
Notes from an Appleseed, Part 2- by request.
I have been asked to expound a bit on my Appleseed experience. Following herewith are a few more comments and observations.
My friend and I arrived Friday afternoon. After setting up our camp at the nearby Paris Landing State Park, we set out to find the Henry County Gun Club, site of the impending Appleseed. (Time spent in reconnaissance is never wasted.)
Saturday dawned partly cloudy and still. We arrived and were greeted at the gate and instructed to proceed to the check-in, where we would sign the ubiquitous waiver and other paperwork. (Note: We were NOT informed of the ban on sidearms- we removed ours once we arrived, but it was a personal decision, rather than following a directive.)
Following the introductory comments, we proceeded to the firing line, where the initial course of fire was discussed. Redcoats first, and the dressing down to follow- no one took Fred up on his offer to trade their 20th century rifle in for a 1750's model.
Classification AQTs came next, followed by the 1" squares. No surprises, just improvement and refinements. I did note some horizontal stringing, most likely due to the woodchip ground cover on the firing line. Recoil would cause my right elbow to drift to starboard, resulting in canting. Once the problem was identified, it could be corrected, although it did necessitate a reacquisition of NPOA after every couple of shots.
Another phenomenon which I noticed was an occasional split group, with 4-5 shots in a ragged hole, with the other 5-6 forming another distinctly separate grouping, usually 3/8" or so lower than the first group. My best guess is changing lighting conditions from the partly sunny conditions, requiring a wider strip of white at the top of my front sight in the 6 o'clock hold. I'm running some tests on aperature size, larger for more light or smaller for more visual acuity. An adjustable iris may be the answer, although I don't yet know how such would hold up under strenuous field use.
I used the 1907 sling for both days. While I believe that the web sling has merit, I'm not altogether sure that it is faster to acquire than the leather '07, based upon watching other folks get theirs adjusted. I used the '07 because it's what I'm used to, not because I discount the web sling. (And you never change your equipment on the day of a shoot!) I've used both a CW and a Ching sling on sporter/scout rifles, and those are both much faster to acquire than either the web or the '07, about 2 seconds to loop up. Both provide the speed of a hasty sling with the positive forward loading of the 1907 or the web sling. If your rifle can use either of those sling types, you may want to try one or both and see if either works for you.
Sunday was more of the same, with those of us on the Rifleman cusp going to the 200 yd. range. Here there was some kvetching about some intervening vegetation, and partially obscured targets, but it was light-hearted. (As an aside, it would be a worthwhile exercise to do some testing with your targets behind some screening vegetation to note how much, if any, deflection you'll experience when shooting through such things as grasses, twigs and saplings.) Here we found out that we were slackers- those targets are huge in comparison to the 25 meter AQT. I suppose we all eased up a bit, an act which was readily apparent from our targets.
Finally it was time for some clean-up, pack-up and some final networking and goodbyes, and the end of a thoroughly enjoyable weekend. Although tired, hot and quite aromatic, it was an excellent training opportunity and source for much reflection. And just think, some people spent the weekend in front of the boob tube- or playing golf. Egads! Those are the folks we need to reach.
Some comments on the administration of the line.
A bullhorn for the line officer would be a welcome addition. Following Fred's advice, I had both plugs and muffs. Given nearly 20 years of power tool use, my hearing is not what it used to be, and range commands were often difficult to hear and/or understand. I imagine quite a few of us more seasoned shooters have a similar problem.
I like the fact that Appleseed is a "No alibi" event, but I found this out in practice and subsequently got verification from the website. A comment before going live might be in order.
I understand the importance of drawing the "recoil-side" leg up, but having an instructor kick your foot while you are in the middle of a string is a sure-fire way to throw one out of the group. Thanks, Fred.
Finally, I would be remiss in not thanking the members of the Henry County Gun Club who made the event possible. Everyone with whom I spoke who was affiliated with HCGC was gracious and obviously interested and enthusiastic about the program. Likewise, thanks go out to the folks from Hoofbeats of Hope ( I don't believe that's exactly right- someone help me out here) who took on the task of feeding the hungry hordes of shooters. Napoleon may have been on to something when he said an army marches on its stomach....
Carl:
QuoteFred decided that I was a slacker as he walked by and I had a bunch of decent groups with a flyer. He pointed to the flyer and asked what happened. He then said I was a slacker "because it was obvious that I could do better". He later declared an entire group of us slackers after seeing the targets from 200 yards. We were getting a bit sloppy partly due to a weekend in the heat. The fifteen year of from the family of shooters was even off with a score of 49 from standing at 100 after his perfect 50 from sitting at 200. So I am just one among a group of slackers--seven of us with new rifleman patches.
Carl, no hard feelings this end (:)) - it's part of RWVA Appleseed policy to offer encouragement. You must have been shooting pretty good to get that 'slacker' comment. And I'm sure you were told and understood - that when you shoot good, the instructor gets the credit... ;D And when you shoot bad, YOU get the credit. (So that shot out of the group - well, that would be yours, right? ;D)
You guys did an excellent job on the long-range portion of the Appleseed.
PS: Being called a 'slacker' by Fred is not necessarily bad...
Posted by: Spatulaman
QuoteI like the fact that Appleseed is a "No alibi" event, but I found this out in practice and subsequently got verification from the website. A comment before going live might be in order.
I agree. Maybe it got left out - it's sometimes hard to get all the stuff in that needs to be in - and usually, even then, there's one or two - or more! - who don't hear it.
QuoteI understand the importance of drawing the "recoil-side" leg up, but having an instructor kick your foot while you are in the middle of a string is a sure-fire way to throw one out of the group. Thanks, Fred.
No thanks needed - just doing my job. ;D Since you are learning marksmanship while firing your string, it rams the message home better than anything else to do the 'foot' thing. After a couple, sometimes more, of doing it, you find the shooter starts doing it himself - one of the quicker things that's usually picked up...
QuoteFinally, I would be remiss in not thanking the members of the Henry County Gun Club who made the event possible. Everyone with whom I spoke who was affiliated with HCGC was gracious and obviously interested and enthusiastic about the program. Likewise, thanks go out to the folks from Hoofbeats of Hope ( I don't believe that's exactly right- someone help me out here) who took on the task of feeding the hungry hordes of shooters. Napoleon may have been on to something when he said an army marches on its stomach....
Big dittoes here, both on the club and it's support for the Appleseed shoot, and the ladies who took care of our stomachs... Thanks to all of them.
And a PS for both of you: thanks for the excellent posts!
BTW, have we decided on a proceedure for getting a T-shirt in a size resembling what one would normally wear? (Sorry, but a 3x, while it might be comfortable, just isn't my style.) As you may recall, there was a shortage of Lg shirts. No hurry, just curious.
Spat, don't know how you wound up with a 3X. If you want to get a Large instead, return the 3X with a note to RWVA, POB 629, Ramseur, NC 27316 and we'll send out a Large.
Thanks in advance.
Fred,
I did know that the Slacker comments were not intended in a mean way. My thought when I see a pulled shot or just run out of time during a string are somewhat similar. And, yes I know about the mirror. One of the instructors chuckle as he took credit for all but one group of shots at the squares. I bet you can guess what "my" group looked like<g>.
Thanks for coming to Tennessee!
Quote from: student on October 02, 2007, 12:09:54 AM
Nickel or Spatula
Either of you worked out the MOA equivilant to the air rifle bulls at 10 m or the small bore bull at 50 feet?
Student
Correction on 10-ring size. The 10 ring on the AR10 target is 1/2mm, which works out to 5mm, or app. .20 caliber, at 100 meters. Pretty d&%$ed small! Imagine putting 10 shots, from standing, at 100 m, into the mouth of a 22lr case....
QuoteImagine putting 10 shots, from standing, at 100 m, into the mouth of a 22lr case....
Ow! It makes my brain hurt to think of that!
I can do it, 5 shoots, from the bench, with a competition Bench Rest gun, and consistently. Short of that, no way.
My oldest son shoots smallbore and precision air at the collegiate level and went to the NCAA finals last year in Fairbanks, AK. Over the years we've seen some pretty impressive scores on the AR10- 389/400 Women's division, 596/600 Men's division. Pretty impressive shooting.