AZ - Washington's Birthday Match 2011

[AZRedhawk44]

OK, let's get this started properly, right now.

We have 364 days left to plan and DOMINATE the Ben Avery Washington's Birthday Match.

This is a 7th step intensive fire mission, Arizona!

We've had a hard time getting in on the Ben Avery Schedule.  I intend to educate their range to just exactly what they're missing out on.  The Washington's Birthday Match is held at a MEASLY 200 yards.  50 rounds.  10 standing, 10 seated/kneeling, 10 rapid prone and 20 slowfire prone.  It's a QDAQT with a "standard" 4th stage rather than doubling it... and at a wimpy 200 yards!

A morning stretch, for an Appleseed Rifleman!

I want to enter 3 teams for Arizona:

1 - Arizona Appleseed Instructor Corps
---AZRedhawk44
---Lysander6
---AZbinary23
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2 - Arizona Appleseed Rifleman Corps
---chrisknox
---newguy556
---(open)
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3 - Arizona Appleseed Juniors Team
---(open)
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This is a COMMITMENT, Arizona!  We will meet monthly and PRACTICE as a TEAM.  We will learn to spot one another's particular foibles on 6 steps, NPOA, steady hold factors and so on.  We can practice 200 yards at Ben Avery, Rio Salado and Buckeye on demand.  Payson also offers 200+ yards, those of you in Kingman have that wonderful 1000 yard range available to you for practice, and Sierra Vista goes to at least 400 yards but my memory wants to insist it goes to at least 500.

The big challenge we will all face is shooting from standing at 200 yards rather than 100.  I'm sure we 'Seeders can figure out how to do that, though.

Here's the website for the event:
http://washingtonsbirthdayriflematch.org/

Here's a link to the 2010 Rulebook:
http://washingtonsbirthdayriflematch.org/Wash-Bdy-main-program-2010.pdf

Right now, I'm looking for 3 voices... We're required to have team captains for each team.

Here, I'll show you how it works:  I'll be the team captain for the Instructor team.  Now I need 3 more team members, with funny-colored hats.  If it's orange right now, don't worry:  It'll be a nice dusty/used red by next February.

Chris, you shot the 2010 match... will you be team captain for the Rifleman's team?

Hoss, would your one or both of your boys be interested in helping put together a youth team?

I'll be pitching this at EVERY Appleseed in AZ going forward until we have full teams.  If interest is there, I'd love to put together a lady's team as well.  Otherwise, women are certainly welcome to throw their hats in the ring for the other 3 teams.  We'll close the books for new team members probably around October.  We'll be sure to hold an Appleseed a week or two prior to the match to make certain all participants are in tip-top shape, too.

Here ya go, Fred... dual-wielding clown bats!


AZ, let's storm Ben Avery in 2011 and show them how Appleseed makes Riflemen!

[AZRedhawk44]

I'd like to point out...

They use NRA score targets that have a high score of 10 per shot, with an "x" much like our "v" ring used for ties.

The top 10 shooters shot from 488 (17x) to 474 (7x).  That's roughly equivalent to a 240 AQT score.  Those top shooters are certainly ace-ing their rapid prone and slow prone, doing really dang good on their seated and shooting at least 9's on their standing.  My best AQT so far is a 232, so I need 8 more points to be barking at their heels.  I can find 8 points in 11 months.

The "x" on a 200 yard NRA bull is 13" across for the 9-ring, or 6.5 minutes of angle.  The 10-ring is about 6.5 inches across, or 3.25 minutes, and the "x" ring is about 2 inches across, or 1 minute.

Our targets are irregular shaped, but our V-ring is about 4.5 minutes of angle at 100 yards, 2.25 at 200 yards, 1.5 at 300 yards and ~1 at 400 yards.

I will provide the ACTUAL targets we will use for known distance practice for this endeavor.

I'd like our first practice to be in early April, 2 weeks before the April 17-18 events.

[chrisknox]

I'm in.  This is a great approach.  And after my sad performance this past weekend, I'm ready to buckle down.

Indulge me a moment to harp on the history of this event.   Sunday was the 118th annual.  That makes it the oldest continuously running rifle match in the US.  All those famous and fancy matches back east in places like Camp Perry and Creedmoor were interrupted by various trivialities like a depression, a couple of world wars and other unpleasantness.  The Zonies kept shooting through all that.  We can talk about the relationship between the Territorial Rifle Team and the Arizona state flag some other time.

Where do we meet and when?  I suspect we're scattered around.  Maybe a rotating schedule between north (Ben Avery), east (Rio Salado?  Tucson??), south (Poenix Rod & Gun?) and west (Buckeye).  I have potential recruits in Flagstaff and Tucson.  I'm in north Phoenix and would love to see Ben Avery become as lively with Appleseed as Buckeye has.

[NEWGUY556]

I would be interested.
The Match was shot at 200 but for the Prone stages it was on reduced targets. 300 rapid 600 slow. I was not prepared for that. I need more practice. There was alot of talent on the line at that match.
I wore my Appleseed shirt (As Long as I could, it was cold) and if I did my job right I will have recruited 2 shooters for the March Buckeye Appleseed.

[AZRedhawk44]

AZGromit and I have been rotating around the 3 ranges on the perimeter of the Valley on a monthly cycle.  Buckeye, Ben Avery and Rio Salado.  We've been working with IIT's and enthusiastic Appleseeders, working 6 steps, steady hold factors and NPOA.

I'd like to continue that cycle, if that's okay with you guys.

If we hear team member requests from up in Kingman or down towards Tucson, I'd like to get those ranges in on the schedule.  It's a couple hours of commute, but it's only once a month and once every few months since we have 3 ranges in the Valley on the rotation.

Chris, would you be captain of the Rifleman team?  You and newguy556 make 2 so far... need to find two more and possibly 1 alternate just in case.

I had initially postulated that we should meet 2 weeks before the April 17-18 nation-wide April 19th Appleseed push.  Unfortunately, that's Easter weekend.  The weekend prior we have an Appleseed in Buckeye.  So, that leaves April 10-11 for a first meeting.  I propose Saturday, at Ben Avery, right after the early morning crunch.  About 10 or 11 AM.  We'll need to be sure we get on the center 200 yard section of the firing line.  We probably only need 1 lane for the lot of us.

Chris, can you confirm that the targets shot for score are the SR, the MR-52 and the SR-42?

SR - Standing, seated:
http://www.nationaltarget.com/cgi-bin/miva?Merchant2/merchant.mv+Screen=PROD&Store_Code=NT&Product_Code=SR++%28priced+per+50%29&Category_Code=HPR

MR-52 - Slow prone:
http://www.nationaltarget.com/cgi-bin/miva?Merchant2/merchant.mv+Screen=PROD&Store_Code=NT&Product_Code=MR-52+%28priced+per+100%29&Category_Code=HPR

SR-42 - Rapid prone:
http://www.nationaltarget.com/cgi-bin/miva?Merchant2/merchant.mv+Screen=PROD&Store_Code=NT&Product_Code=SR-42++%28priced+per+50%29&Category_Code=HPR

I'll order appropriate targets once we know for certain that these are what we want.

[AZRedhawk44]

http://www.tngbbs.com/rifle/nra/hp/Section4.html

4.3 200 Yard Targets

(a) No. SR Military "Target, Rifle, Competition, Short Range."
Aiming Black    (inches)       Rings in White    (inches)
X ring              3.00       8 ring             19.00
10 ring              7.00       7 ring             25.00
9 ring             13.00       6 ring             31.00
                                                5 ring             37.00

(b) NRA No. SR-42-Reduction of the SR-3 target to simulate the 300-
     yard stage of the National Match Course at 200 yards.
Aiming Black    (inches)       Rings in White    (inches)
X ring             1.90               7 ring           16.56
10 ring             4.56               6 ring           20.56
9 ring             8.56               5 ring           24.56
8 ring            12.56          

(c) NRA No. MR-52-Reduction of the MR-1 target to simulate the
    600-yard stage of the National Match Course at 200 yards.
Aiming Black    (inches)       Rings in White    (inches)
X ring             1.79               6 ring            15.79
10 ring             3.79               5 ring            19.79
9 ring             5.79          
8 ring             7.79          
7 ring            11.79    

[chrisknox]

I'll captain the Rifleman team.  Just confirmed that those are the targets.  Got this from Bill Poole who has been running the WBM as long as anyone can remember:

yes those are the targets, all you need is 12" circle at 200 or 6" at 100 yds to practice the positions since all you care about is small group, not score.

honestly for practice I do not at all recommend going to the pudlic range and practicing, I STRONGLY recommend getting out to the club matches and SHOOTING practice matches. There is something going on almost EVERY weekend in phoenix, for instance this coming saturday will be PRGC

the 200 yd M1/C&R matches at Rio Salado are good practice for 200 yd only.

the other thing to do is DRY FIRE at home, in your living room

I see lots of folks at the public range and tell them to come to a club shoot and they say "I'm not good enough yet" well they WON'T GET GOOD ENUF unless they get out and shoot in match format with other match shooters to learn from at the club practice matches!

see you on the line!

Poole

He has a point.  It might be a good outreach for Appleseeders to talk with both the unwashed and those who are already dabbling in the highpower game.  Appleseed is some of the best basic instruction anyone could ask for and while I'm as bored as anyone with the equipment race, there's nothing wrong with working inside an existing system.

[AZRedhawk44]

I hear ya, and we do need to attend some matches to get accustomed to the format, as well as the sling-less standing shooting.

However, I have a dozen Appleseeds between now and then.  There go 25% of my weekends already.  Same with most other instructors on the instructor team.  Matches may overlap with Appleseeds, much like the 2010 Washington's Birthday Match overlapped with Buckeye this year.

We also may find we need to practice particular positions more than others.  Can't do that at a match, but we can do that informally at the range or dry-fire at home or informally out in the desert.

[AZbinary]

I'm interested, though I've never shot in a match before, and I am in the southeast side of Tucson...just about as far as you can get from Phoenix metro and still be called Tucson...and a year is a long time away..many things can pop up between now and then,

But I'm definetly interested...

M

[NEWGUY556]

I can Make it to Avery on April 10th. I am willing to get there before the range opens and wait in line to get a table. Just let me know if that is what you want me to do.

I have had more meaningful conversations with people about Appleseed at Matches than I have had anywhere else. I think having an Appleseed presence at even local practice matches could be great for recruiting.

Sometime in April there is supposed to be another "CMP" type match at Buckeye. They have not announced a date yet. The last one was at 100yrds on reduced targets. They pretty much let you use whatever Rifle you wanted to.

[lysander6]

AZRedhawk,

  Plug me into the Instructor Team for the Match.  By next year, I project four total RWVA Redhats in the Sierra Vista Appleseed area (myself and three others).  I will put out feelers for competitors and training monthly down here.

  Great idea and terrific push on the seventh step.

[AZRedhawk44]

OK, azbinary and lysander6:

You're both on the instructor team.  Team rosters are in the opening post of this thread.  We can create more teams if interest is high enough.  We can do a south-AZ instructor team and a phoenix-AZ instructor team if we have enough bodies and travel between metro areas becomes onerous.

Let's add a Tucson range to the rotation.  You gents know the area better than me.  Does the range out towards Three Points have 200 yards for practice?  Shall we set that one for May?

This would also be a great opportunity to get some time to pitch Appleseed for the Tucson area for 2011.  Meet the rangemaster at Three Points and see if they have interest in an Appleseed or three, next year.

[NEWGUY556]

"The big challenge we will all face is shooting from standing at 200 yards rather than 100.  I'm sure we 'Seeders can figure out how to do that, though."

Its a great big target, and its all in the technique(a shooting jacket helps) In 4 months I brought my score up 12 points. I would be happy to share what I know with the team.

[NEWGUY556]

Since we were talking about Practice:
http://www.odcmp.com/Competitions/WGames_Flyer.pdf   The match falls on the same date as an Appleseed at Buckeye but there are JCG and Vintage Military matches after that as well as the Creedmore cup, Highpower clinic and Practice match. I belive the practice match will go the full 600 rather than reduced.
http://www.members.cox.net/azjrhp/2010%20legacy.doc This match is the Weekend before the March Buckeye Appleseed, and is the exact format as the Washingtons Birthday match. I plan on doing the March Appleseed so I don't know if I can get my kitchen pass approved for both weekends, may pass on the match.

If it is not proper for me to post this here please let me know.

[AZRedhawk44]

Just an FYI and I'm certain most folks here know this, but High Power has silly rules when it comes to rifles that are eligible to compete with.

A 20 pound AR-15 with a hidden free-float tube and 1/4 MOA click aperture sights is legal (even though that was never a "service rifle").

A 6 pound M4gery with an Aimpoint and an accessory rail handguard is typically not (even though that's a "service rifle" now) allowed to compete, and if it is, it must be in a different division.

http://washingtonsbirthdayriflematch.org/Wash-Bdy-main-program-2010.pdf

18. RIFLES: (8mm or less centerfire):
- US service rifle (AR-15, M14/M1A, M1 per NRA/CMP service rifle rules)
- Vintage Military Bolt Rifle (Springfield, Mauser, Enfield, Mosin-Nagant etc in as-issued condition)
- John C Garand (M1 rifle or M1 Carbine per CMP rules)
- Foreign Service Rifle (AK, HK, FAL etc in as-issued condition)
- M4-gery (action shooting or tactical weight and style semi-auto carbine/rifle, OPTICS permitted!) (no "space gun" match rifles)
- Other Rifles may be approved by match director.

I plan on shooting my Armscorp M14 national match rifle... the only oddity about it is it will soon be mounted in a synthetic "supermatch" style stock rather than the wooden "supermatch" style stock it's currently in.  If that rifle is broken/unavailable/illegal to use, then my fall-back will be a Cavalry Arms CAV-15 with a White Oak A2 "service rifle" upper on it.  Both rifles use simple GI cotton slings.

All four members of a team must have rifles that match the particular category your captain enters you into... If your team captain enters the team in the John C Garand division, you can't run your AR-15 in there.  Your Appleseed LTR is not eligible, nor is your tricked out personalized rifle that you might "muster on the green" with.  Unless you have odd tastes in muster-on-the-green gear.

I plan to enter my team into the "US Service Rifle" category:  M1 Garand, M1A/M14 and AR-15 category.  If you don't have one of these rifles right now, try to beg/borrow/buy one in the next 6-9 months so you have several months to practice with it and get familiar.  An AR-15 basic lower with a White Oak match upper will set you back about $900 or so and is the cheapest and most mechanically accurate option.  Also viable is the M1 Garand from CMP, though you risk getting bottom of the barrel at this point from what I understand, and it might need a new barrel and gunsmith attention above the regular $500-$600 CMP fees, for a total investment of about $1000.  Just the White Oak upper will cost about $600 or so and if you have another style AR-15 is the cheapest way to get a serviceable rifle for this event.

If I cannot fill my roster with "US Service Rifle" shooters, then I am open to moving to the "Vintage Military Bolt Rifle" category.  I have a Mosin Nagant 91/30 that is a pretty solid performer.  Farthest I've shot it so far is 300 yards but it could be trusted to ruin a pumpkin on every shot.  Any string of fire that exceeds 10 rounds starts to really heat that barrel up and create mirage, though.  I'd prefer to stay in US Service Rifle unless it cannot be avoided.

Chris, what category will your team be entered into?

Lysander6, do you have a suitable rifle?  I understand your clan is of the FAL persuasion.  Do we need to trade some PM's/emails to find out what all we will shoot on the instructor team?

AZRon, you mentioned wanting in on either the Instructor or the Rifleman team.  Which one, and what rifle(s) do you have that are eligible for competition?

[NEWGUY556]

My team consisted of 1-M1Garand ,1-M1A, 1- AR-15, 1-M4gery. They only thing I read in the rules was no match guns (F-class) and M4 shooters could not use slings or coats but they could use optics.
I am pretty sure you can mix and match. I saw some Mausers teamed up with AR's. They seemd pretty relaxed about the rules, they did not check any of our rifles. The CMP does.

[AZRedhawk44]

I just emailed the match director for clarification, newguy556.

[AZbinary]

If it helps, I have 3 M-1 Garands suitable for use, and two other "iffy" ones, an M1917, and a VZ-24 Mauser in the bolt category, as well as the ubiquitous "M-Forgery" with either an EOTECH or regular aperture sights.  Any word on M-1 Carbines?  I know we're getting near the end of their velocity curve at 200 yards, but my wife may be interested if she doesn't have to shoot a full size rifle.  I have 3 of those suitable for use as well...and An M-14SA on order, in stock configuration.

[NEWGUY556]

Binary- I am pretty sure that it was open to any vintage military type rifle. M1 carbine was mentioned. I would not even consider the M4, my buddy got creamed with his. Without the sling you eliminate any benefit you would get from a lighter rifle and optic. I would go so far to say that any Mil-surp Bolt gun would be a better choice. The only exception being for a smaller statured shooter.
Also I had a lady on my team, she was actually our team captain, who I am trying to get to an Appleseed. If we had interest in a ladies team
it may help me sway her into running the ladies team. She had the 2nd Highest score on our team. I will keep working on that.

Redhawk- The top 15 shooters were all shooting AR-15 match guns. With the freefloat Barrels etc.. As much as I think the M1A is a superior Rifle, I would rather see you in the shootoff at the end. Just my opinion though.

[lysander6]

Gents,

  Yes, we are a FAL clan here in the local area but I am able to field either a Garand or mousegun for the event.  Did I read correctly in the post above that slings are not allowed on mouse guns?

[NEWGUY556]

Slings are not allowed on AR-15 Carbines AKA M4rgeries. They are Allowed on the full size (20") Rifles that have the A2 upper receiver and the fixed stock.

[AZRedhawk44]

Since we were talking about Practice:
...
http://www.members.cox.net/azjrhp/2010%20legacy.doc This match is the Weekend before the March Buckeye Appleseed, and is the exact format as the Washingtons Birthday match. I plan on doing the March Appleseed so I don't know if I can get my kitchen pass approved for both weekends, may pass on the match.

Let's try to field a team for this, just to see where we all stand.

My M14 is in less-than-optimal state right now so I will be attending with my franken-AR-15:


I'll be running 62gr factory ammo, like I've been shooting for the last several KD sessions out in the desert with Gromit.

I need 3 more shooters.  March 20th.  Registration/squadding at 7:30AM, match starts at 8AM.  $25 per shooter/$100 per team.  Once I get 3 names who commit to this, I'll file our team entrance and send a check for $100... I'll need $25 from each of you guys once we all arrive at the match.

Who's in?

March 20th Legacy High Power Rifle Match
-AZRedhawk44
-(open)
-(open)
-(open)

[AZRedhawk44]

Also:

If I don't hear from the rest of a team by Friday, I can't send in the paperwork until the week of March 15.  I'll be out of town Appleseeding all week at WSMR.

[NEWGUY556]

I am already on a team for that one. You could PM Chris Knox to see if he is doing it, I dont know how often he checks in here.
I saw that you were not online so I PM'ed him.

[AZbinary]

Can't make this month at all, Airshow that weekend, which I'm working, and vacation with the grandkids to Disneyland.

[AZRedhawk44]

OK, FYI all AZ 2011 Washington's Birthday Appleseed Team members!

We'll be meeting at Ben Avery on Saturday, April 10th, for our first team meeting and practice session.  Bring the centerfire rifle you think you'll be using at WBD2011, as well as a .22 trainer of your choice if you have one.

We'll meet at 10am at the public range.  If there's a wait for a 200 yard table, we'll go over standing position mechanics with a dummy stock, and give everyone a chance to get a feel for a USGI cotton sling versus a 1907-style sling, and compare which one they like better for the rapid fire stages.

Course of Fire for the day, once we get on the line:
-Warm up at 25 yards.  1.5 inch squares (6MOA to coincide with your sight picture technique), standing unsupported, with either .22 or centerfire. 
-Standing unsupported position, one shooter at a time, single-load, coached.  One shooter per target per cease-fire.  We'll try to sprawl to more than one 200 yard lane, or we might post two targets on one lane and have shooters fire from the left and right sides of the table if possible.

Goals:
1.  Familiarize ourselves with the standing unsupported position.
2.  Acquire a sight picture technique (COM or 6 o'clock) that works well for known-distance shooting.
3.  Establish sight settings that work for our chosen ammunition at 200 yards, and log them for the next practice match that is available for any of us.

Estimated time:  2-3 hours.

[NEWGUY556]

I want to go, really I do. Mrs NEWGUY may not approve my kitchen pass for it since I will be Appleseeding in Payson the following weekend. I will "Test the waters" next time I think she is in a good mood. Hopefully my power of persuasion will work.   

If I may make a suggestion for everyone:
Go to your favorite office supply store and get a little note book that you can toss in your range bag. Alot of highpower shooters keep a log book with notes, scores, dope for thier rifles etc.. but those sell for like $15 and I am a cheapskate. I got a note book at megalomart for $2.
When I shoot even in practice I score every target just like they would at a match and write them in the book. 2-x, 3-10 etc.. as well as the distance, the shooting position and the ammo. I shoot Milsurp stuff from CMP so I like to write down the year of manufacture. Tracking my scores even in practice helps me see my progress.  In the back of the book I started writing down the sight settings with the ammuntion I am using and the sight picture I am using. I am working on no wind zeros for the book currently, that way I will always have a starting point just in case I make a bunch of adjustments and forget to change it back. 

[AZbinary]

With the Sierra Vista appleseed the very next weekend, there's no way I can drive to Phoenix for the whole day...but, I will shoot that COF here at my local range.

I have no idea how the scoring works, can anyone point me in the right direction?  I know I'd get much more out of a coached session, but I just can't justify the time.

Mark

[NEWGUY556]

With the Sierra Vista appleseed the very next weekend, there's no way I can drive to Phoenix for the whole day...but, I will shoot that COF here at my local range.

I have no idea how the scoring works, can anyone point me in the right direction?  I know I'd get much more out of a coached session, but I just can't justify the time.

Mark

So we are working on the standing "String" you cannot use a sling. You need to find a comfortable way to lock your non-firing elbow against your body. I have a big belly so that is where mine goes. Better than me trying to explain.
Here is a link , http://arizona-rifleshooting.com/nmc.html the guy who runs this site is the same guy who runs the WBD match.
Read through at your leisure and report back with any questions. We still have time for a couple get togther shoots between Appleseeds.
Mike

[AZRedhawk44]

With the Sierra Vista appleseed the very next weekend, there's no way I can drive to Phoenix for the whole day...but, I will shoot that COF here at my local range.

I have no idea how the scoring works, can anyone point me in the right direction?  I know I'd get much more out of a coached session, but I just can't justify the time.

Mark

If you can't find the appropriate target and 200 yard distance, then get a 6MOA target of some sort.  A 1.5" square at 25 yards, 6" circle at 100 yards, or a 12" circle at 200.  Find a sight picture that allows you to shoot standing unsupported and put all the rounds into the center of the bull.  Don't worry about the score for right now, just try to get a 6MOA standing unsupported group.  Later, we'll work on shrinking that to 3MOA or smaller.

But, be sure to use your intended rifle and intended ammo!  Note your sight settings, in case you go back to 25 meter AQT's and need to fiddle with them, or you go shoot different ammo and adjust sights accordingly.