Military marksmenship

[marrandy]

I hope it is OK to post this here ?

I came across this PDF linked below.  When I talk about Appleseed on gun forums and shooting at 500 yards with iron sights, people are disbelieving that it can be done and comments are often about wasted bullets.

Where did we go wrong and take ourselves into the range of the untrained/poorly trained enemy.

In tanks and other equipment, the West has employed longer range and more accurate weapons to  'kill'  the enemy before they:-

a)   Know we are there

b)   Get into THEIR weapons/training effective range

We used to train for this with rifles.  But in those days, the round had the capability and performance with the rifle at hand and it was down to training.

I'll take Two snippets from the articles about WW1 and post WW1 marksmanship training.


"The above rifles had sights graduated to 2,700 yards in the case of the M1903 and 1,600 yards for the M1917"

"Marksmanship training for the Infantry during this period consisted of short, mid, and long-range marksmanship respectively, defined as 0-500 yards, 500-800 yards and 800-1,200 yards.15 This annual training was conducted over a two-month period and consisted of practice and record fire to a distance of 600 yards. Soldiers ranked as sharpshooter or expert in their qualification then proceeded to fire the long-range course consisting of targets from 800 yards to 1,200 yards"

http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA512331&Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf

I hope you will find the document interesting.

Huzzah !!!

[POP]

I hope it is OK to post this here ?

I can across this PDF linked below.  When I talk about Appleseed on gun forums and shooting at 500 yards with iron sights, people are disbelieving that it can be done and comments are often about wasted bullets.  Tell'em to ask the soldiers of the 2nd Engineering Battallion at WSMR (White Sands Missile Range) about their experience.  Last March we had 50 Designated Marksmen on the line for a week.  Probably 25% removed their optics and shot iron sights.  For the entire group of 50 marksmen, at 500 yds their hit rate was about 12% too 13%, a darn sight better than the military as a whole. 
An Appleseed weekend typically teaches the marksmanship capability of our Colonial Forefathers, who could produce results far better than their British Regular buds.    With practice a Rifleman can produce even better results.   

So, Tell your friends and other skeptics to come out to an Appleseed RBC and really learn the skill.  IT WORKS!      Thanks for Posting.
POP

[Francis Marion]

On a known distance target range, with practice, it's very easy to strike 4 MOA targets with high hit probability.  Sighter shots are very helpful, and once you have that data, you can chew up the target.  Must also include wind effects in your shot; range flags help.  Not to mention the data you recorded from the last time(s) you shot at that distance.  (What! Riflemen need to keep data books?  Yep, or else you're losing valuable information which you'll have to relearn- needlessly- the next time you shoot)  The target range is a very 'nice' environment to study how well a person and rifle perform.  It's very different from the real world of fleeting targets at estimated ranges, I think.  

A person steeped in rifle shooting fundamentals, such as Appleseed's, will thrive in the structured environment of the target range.   And will have acquired, I think, a skillset necessary to acquit themselves well in the real world.  

Palma shooters fire competitively at 1000 yard targets with iron sights (and 7.62x51!).  

Even a 5.56 service rifle is capable of striking 4 MOA targets at 600 yds with iron sights on target ranges; especially with heavier bullets.  It all depends upon skill: the product of training, practice, time.  Lack of skill is the main hindrance, not iron sights.

[Colorado Pete]

NRA highpower bullseye is conducted at 200, 300, and 600 yards, all with irons. Fancy match irons on match rifles, and on service rifles, either original GI aperture/post sights or a slightly enhanced (smaller aperture) version of same.
If you have a clearly visible aiming point, aperture irons work quite well.

[Old Dog]

In WW1, at the battle of Belleau Wood the US Marines stood off multiple attacks from the Germans (before eventually attacking the Germans and running them out of the area.)

There was 800 yds of wheatfield between the German and US lines when the Germans came out of the woods to attack the Marines on the opposite side of the field.  The Marine rifle fire, with 03 Springfields and issue ball ammo, was so accurate that they were killing German soldiers at 800 yds.  After repeated failed attempts to get across the field the Germans reported to their higher command that they were facing "a battalion of snipers".

Not sniper rifles, no match rifles, not match ammo, no scopes, no sniper training.  Just US Marines and their common issue rifles and ammo.

[Nickle]

For a more modern outlook on that article, the good Major never met any of the soldiers from 3/172 Infantry (Mountain) from the VT Army Guard (unit is currently in Afghanistan). He's generally correct, but it's not as bleak as he points out.

We have a few troops in that Battalion that have been known to to make decent percentages of hits out to 800 meters with M4's, equipped with ACOG or CCO (Close Combat Optic, an Aimpoint CompM4 Red Dot). Two NCO's (1 with an ACOG, 1 with a CCO) were actually outshooting the troops with the M249 SAW. This has been witnessed personally by myself, I was in the tower running the range (it's computerized pop-ups).

I had a Company CO (Captain) that was making hits out to 1100 meters with an M16A2 and iron sights, guided in by a spotter with binoculars.

The Army currently only requires qualification to 300 meters on pop-ups. If that isn't available, they have to shoot to 300 on a KD range. The Army teaches holding high or low to compensate for trajectory. They teach that out to 400 yards.

[The Old Guide]

I competed at 1,000 yards at the old Annapolis range in 1968. Before that I competed at 500 yards at Davisville at 500 yards. The Navy had accurized M-1s chambered for the 7.62 NATO round. When I was in the pits I dug around and found the old 200 grain round nose bullets from when the Navy team competed with the 30-40 Krag. There is still a lot of history walking around. When I arrived in Vietnam I could have chosen any weapon I wanted as a personal survival weapon from a Swedish K to a Thompson submachine gun. I chose the M-14. I sent away to the Old Western Scrounger and bought a Leatherwood scope mount. I put a Weaver K4 on it and dragged that around for a year. It hung on my armored seat in my gun ship. People asked why I dragged that big rifle around.

"Because if I'm down in a rice paddy I want to dump them when they come out of the tree line. I don't intend to fight hand to hand."

[slim]

people are disbelieving that it can be done

I'll never forget watching posterboy take a club member who was there to zero his deer rifle and run him through a 5 minute Appleseed. He handed him his M-1A and said, "now do what I just taught you to do."

Boom......... PING!

The guy couldn't believe it.  He whipped out his cell phone, called his buddy to tell him, "Dude, I just shot a target 500 yards away with no scope or nothin!" There was a pause, followed by, "Seriously, I just did it. Some guys are out here doing this Appleseed thing and they taught me how to do it." Another pause...... "Seriously. I just did it. Seriously."

Two NCO's (1 with an ACOG, 1 with a CCO) were actually outshooting the troops with the M249 SAW.

We don't need no stinkin machine guns!

[Nickle]

people are disbelieving that it can be done

I'll never forget watching posterboy take a club member who was there to zero his deer rifle and run him through a 5 minute Appleseed. He handed him his M-1A and said, "now do what I just taught you to do."

Boom......... PING!

The guy couldn't believe it.  He whipped out his cell phone, called his buddy to tell him, "Dude, I just shot a target 500 yards away with no scope or nothin!" There was a pause, followed by, "Seriously, I just did it. Some guys are out here doing this Appleseed thing and they taught me how to do it." Another pause...... "Seriously. I just did it. Seriously."

That is what some of us refer to as an epiphany moment. He got it.

Two NCO's (1 with an ACOG, 1 with a CCO) were actually outshooting the troops with the M249 SAW.

We don't need no stinkin machine guns!

No, we don't. Remember, those 2 NCO's had M4's with the 2 mentioned optics, and were clearly outshooting the SAW Gunners. I've heard numerous mentions of the M249 SAW being good for supression. Some of us believe true suppression is when every time someeone sticks their head up, they fall back down, DEAD. The rest quick sticking their heads up in short order.

We all use optics these days, at least in combat units we do. Some support units still have M16A2's with the irons, no optics.

[Old Dog]

Read the story on Sam Woodfill.  Another "country boy" who went to France in WW1.  He didn't get the press Alvin York did because he was an officer.  He did get a Medal of Honor though.  While advancing through the woods to a German army occupied town he put his "still hunting" skills to good use.  He got out in front of his men and walked along through the woods with M1917 Enfield.  When the German machine guns would open up he would kill the gunner.  When the assistant gunner moved the body and took over he would kill the assistant gunner.  He was making head shots while shooting off hand.  He could see the muzzle flash and he estimated where the head was behind the flash and squeezed off a round to silence the machine gun.  When it was over they found multiple dead German gunners at several machine guns and some of the shots were made at up to 200 yds. away from where Lt. Woodfill was standing.

The Medal of Honor citation does not address a comment I read a couple of years ago about Lt. Woodfill.  What he did was use his experience from his childhood hunting days to position himself and his route of travel in such a way as to allow him to see the enemy machine gunners without them being able to see him.  Two hundred yards is not long range and certainly within the range of those German machine guns and yet a single man with a bolt action rifle and iron sights took out multiple hidden/camoflaged enemy machine guns.  Yes, he was an excellent rifle marksman but that is not the whole story.

[BSHRADER]

Just started a good book on military marksmanship, "A Rifleman went to War" by Herbert W. McBride. The copy right date is 1935. I thought it was interesting that they were using greyed out targets back in WW1. From what I've read so far the men back then took Marksmanship very seriously.

[DryFire]

BSHRADER,
That is a great book!!!!!! I read it last year and loved it.   I was able to find it in my local library even. When you finish that one, give Hatcher's notebook a try, a great resource for lots of stuff.
My .02

[jmdavis]

H. W. MacBride wrote another work about his time in the trenches that came out just after the war.

The Emma Gees can be found in its entirety online at Project Gutenberg, http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/20655

[marrandy]

Quite at an opportune moment, this was written    -  The Kentucky Rifle     http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=38418