Pistolseed average number of tries?

[StuartV]

I am curious. What is the average number of times people attend a Pistolseed before they earn a Pistoleer patch?

[Roswell]

I don't think we have metrics for that. We recently made some big changes to our pistol program too and consequently there aren't enough data points to get an accurate number. However, a Pistoleer persists!

[Smallbore (Timothy_D)]

It can absolutely be done in one, but that's often a metric based on how often you train or dry practice, as pistol shooting is a rapidly diminishing skill when you don't do it regularly.

[Burnett]

I believe the average number of pistol events attended before one scores pistoleer is 1.047197551. But I could be wrong. 
It might be 3.1415926...




I'll show myself out...

[Cannibal]

From a sample of one - me - one time.

[StuartV]

I don't think we have metrics for that. We recently made some big changes to our pistol program too and consequently there aren't enough data points to get an accurate number. However, a Pistoleer persists!

The PQT is still the same, though, right?

Any idea what the average number of Pistolseeds was (to earn a Pistoleer patch) under the previous version of the program?

[Roswell]

I don't think we have metrics for that. We recently made some big changes to our pistol program too and consequently there aren't enough data points to get an accurate number. However, a Pistoleer persists!

The PQT is still the same, though, right?

Any idea what the average number of Pistolseeds was (to earn a Pistoleer patch) under the previous version of the program?

Yes. The PQT is still the same.

Sorry, I don't have those metrics either.

[StuartV]

To be clear, I'm fine with a ballpark number or anecdotal info.

For those of you who have taught a Pistolseed, how often do first-timers earn a patch?

How often do second-timers?

[Roswell]

It really depends on their background and willingness to listen. It is not uncommon, though to see someone get Pistoleer at their first event. I had one this weekend.

[eaglescouter]

The numbers vary so significantly that I am unable to set an expectation for what I will see at the next event.

And since we do not tie accomplishments to the purchased ticket, statistics do not exist.

I've seen zero percent weekends, and I've seen 50 percent weekends.
I've seen law enforcement take two events to qualify.
I've seen novices get it on the first scored target.

For me the best consideration is that I want to apply what I am taught as best I can.  If I achieve the patch then that is great, but the learning is the master goal.

To be clear, I'm fine with a ballpark number or anecdotal info.

For those of you who have taught a Pistolseed, how often do first-timers earn a patch?

How often do second-timers?

[Gus]

StuartV,

One suggestion is you can go back through the After Action reports and see how many shooters attended vs. how many made score.  It'll give you an idea.

I've only been to one Pistolseed and that was a couple years ago in Muenster, TX.  Pure fun.

I came into the clinic as an accomplished pistol shooter, but it was all in the slow, deliberate, style of handgun metallic silhouette.

But I didn't know much at all about something very important: how to control a .45 auto in the rapid fire stages!  The instructors (Mrakestraw, AF5US, and ScottinTX) taught me very well how to do that.  Love the clinic and love the program.

For what it's worth, in that shoot in Nov of '24, I think we had 9 or 10 shooters and maybe only one did not achieve a Pistoleer score.

My two cents.


Gus

[StuartV]

The numbers vary so significantly that I am unable to set an expectation for what I will see at the next event.

And since we do not tie accomplishments to the purchased ticket, statistics do not exist.

I have been to three 25m clinics and at each one, at some point, instructors would say something like "the average number of 25m clinics for someone to get a Rifleman patch is around 2.5."

That is normally in the context of telling someone not to feel bad if they don't patch at their first 'seed.

I just thought someone might be able to make a similar statement regarding Pistolseeds.

[StuartV]

StuartV,

One suggestion is you can go back through the After Action reports and see how many shooters attended vs. how many made score.  It'll give you an idea.

I've only been to one Pistolseed and that was a couple years ago in Muenster, TX.  Pure fun.

I came into the clinic as an accomplished pistol shooter, but it was all in the slow, deliberate, style of handgun metallic silhouette.

But I didn't know much at all about something very important: how to control a .45 auto in the rapid fire stages!  The instructors (Mrakestraw, AF5US, and ScottinTX) taught me very well how to do that.  Love the clinic and love the program.

For what it's worth, in that shoot in Nov of '24, I think we had 9 or 10 shooters and maybe only one did not achieve a Pistoleer score.

My two cents.


Gus

Thank you for sharing your experience!

[Zorak]

I'll share my story too. I had taken a few pistol classes before Appleseed, and like Gus, I felt pretty good about my slow fire skills. My local range does not encourage rapid fire and so I hadn't had much chance to practice it. I was able to quality on my first PQT but I just squeaked by. I learned some good lessons that weekend, and my rapid fire is still a work in progress. We had a shooter in the same class who started out struggling to keep all 13 rounds on paper for the hits count target, and while she made some good progress during class, she did not qualify.

I also want to repeat what Eaglescouter said - if people focus too hard on the patch, I think it can obscure the goal of learning.

[StuartV]

I'll share my story too. I had taken a few pistol classes before Appleseed, and like Gus, I felt pretty good about my slow fire skills. My local range does not encourage rapid fire and so I hadn't had much chance to practice it. I was able to quality on my first PQT but I just squeaked by. I learned some good lessons that weekend, and my rapid fire is still a work in progress. We had a shooter in the same class who started out struggling to keep all 13 rounds on paper for the hits count target, and while she made some good progress during class, she did not qualify.

I also want to repeat what Eaglescouter said - if people focus too hard on the patch, I think it can obscure the goal of learning.

Just for the record, my questions are not because I am trying to assess my own ability to patch and how long it will take. I'm not worried about the patch.

I was asking because of an outside discussion I was having with someone regarding whether it is better for a person to buy a pistol or a rifle as a first gun.

I say pistol. The other person says rifle.

I know it is FAR from a perfect way to assess. But, I am still curious. My hypothesis being that, if people normally patch more quickly in rifle or pistol, that might POSSIBLY suggest that one or the other is easier for new shooters to pick up.

For example, if the average new shooter takes 2.5 25m clinics to get a Rifleman patch, but the average new shooter takes only 1 Pistolseed to get a Pistoleer patch, then that might suggest that possibly it is easier to learn to shoot a pistol than a rifle.

Or vice versa.

It's just food for thought in an idle mind.

[LDB415]

I'd think pistol or rifle depends on the individual. One may readily pick up pistol and struggle with rifle. Another vice versa. So while the averages might tell something globally they probably tell nothing individually. Not that I know anything other than how to think outloud.

[Leadslinger66]

I'd say a person should buy their first firearm based on its intended use and take classes based on that.

Other firearms can then be added later with appropriate instruction as required.

[StuartV]

I'd say a person should buy their first firearm based on its intended use and take classes based on that.

Other firearms can then be added later with appropriate instruction as required.

I 100% agree with that.

But, when the person asking for a suggestion on which to buy is considering a pistol or a 9mm PCC, and their intended use is just/only range plinking, then it's a toss-up. And my suggestion is a pistol. Probably a 22LR semiautomatic pistol.

[Zorak]

I think this is one of those times when the wide variation among the population means it's difficult to predict individual outcomes with any degree of confidence. I also think the patch reflects what ISAC determines Appleseed should teach, which has changed a little over time, but does not cover every shooter's use case or interests. If they purely want to plink away, I don't know that any Appleseed offering is a fair point of comparison. If they buy a rifle, would they care about transitioning from standing while on the clock? If it's a pistol, would they care about target transitions and reloads on the clock? If they just want to have fun punching holes in paper (or whatever targets their range offers), then referencing the patch overcomplicates things.

That is not meant to be a criticism of Appleseed - I wouldn't be an IIT if I didn't believe in what we're doing here. I think most shooters can get a lot out of a class or two with us.

If someone asked me about rifle vs pistol, I'd ask about intended use case, available facilities, and general interest level. For example, if the only ranges you can easily use are indoor ranges, I'd strongly encourage a new shooter to go with a pistol. If you can only shoot standing out to 25 yards, the benefits of a rifle show up less than the limitations. Then again, if the person specified this would be a plinking rifle but they're thinking about getting into hunting one day, suddenly rifle sounds better. Then again, if you might ever have kids, a pistol safe can be a lot smaller than a rifle safe. It's a very personal sort of choice.

[Rangerat67]

Like the rifle program, some will pass the first time and some will not pass after attending many events. At some events, no-one receives a Pistoler Patch. At the next event, a majority will earn a Pistoleer Patch. You never know! The important thing is to be safe, keep learning, practice with dry fire, and one will get the coveted patch. A Pistoleer persists! Having said that, like the rifle program, I think 2.5 events is a fair "average" for receiving a Pistoleer Patch.

I once had eight firearm instructors in one class. All were first time attendees to the pistol program but had experience in the rifle program. Only one received a patch. I also have a law enforcement firearm instructor that has attended three events and has not yet scored above 210. He is persisting and will be attending a future event. I have also had a first time student average 243

In the examples noted above, all were shooting centerfire pistols. If one just wants a patch, bring a 22. A centerfire is significantly harder to score >210. I have been tracking this for several years and the point differential between those who shoot both 22 and a centerfire, on average is 32 points. I have awarded more than one distinguished patch to shooters using 22's that have not been able to score above 210 with a 9 mm.

Rangerat67

[kjkestner]

I will add my 2 cents.    I think the rifle ones are much easier...I have shot multiple 250's this year alone (and one last year) on the 25m AQT, shot a Perfect 50 at the full distance KD last year, a 45 and 49 Rimfire KD 2 years ago, and I really struggled to get distinguished on the pistol sometime in the middle of all that.

I am a rifle shooter for sure and I am not that good of a pistol shot normally.    The ONLY thing that helped me to earn the pistoleer patch was that I shot a VERY VERY accurate Ruger Mk1 target pistol with an optic.    There is no possible way under Gods creation that I could have even come close to shooting a qualifying score if I had to shoot a centerfire or without optics.

So my advice to anyone wanting to buy a first gun is to buy a 22lr (rifle or pistol).   It is so much easier (no recoil) and cheaper to shoot.   After you know HOW to shoot, it is then easier to learn to shoot WELL.   The SPEED will come when that is all you are trying to improve and everything else is second nature.   And one thing that I apparently said to a friend of mine (when training with him) that has stuck with him for years:   "You can't MISS fast enough to win"...the match!

[LDB415]

I will add my 2 cents.    I think the rifle ones are much easier...I have shot multiple 250's this year alone (and one last year) on the 25m AQT, shot a Perfect 50 at the full distance KD last year, a 45 and 49 Rimfire KD 2 years ago, and I really struggled to get distinguished on the pistol sometime in the middle of all that.

I am a rifle shooter for sure and I am not that good of a pistol shot normally.    The ONLY thing that helped me to earn the pistoleer patch was that I shot a VERY VERY accurate Ruger Mk1 target pistol with an optic.    There is no possible way under Gods creation that I could have even come close to shooting a qualifying score if I had to shoot a centerfire or without optics.

So my advice to anyone wanting to buy a first gun is to buy a 22lr (rifle or pistol).   It is so much easier (no recoil) and cheaper to shoot.   After you know HOW to shoot, it is then easier to learn to shoot WELL.   The SPEED will come when that is all you are trying to improve and everything else is second nature.   And one thing that I apparently said to a friend of mine (when training with him) that has stuck with him for years:  "You can't MISS fast enough to win"...the match!

What optic was on the MkI?

[StuartV]

Related questions:

When you start a stage of a PQT, how does the shooter actually start?

Pistol loaded, round in chamber? Safety on or off?

Pistol holstered? Pistol held at low ready? Pistol aimed at the target?

And for a mag change stage, how does the shooter retain the mag that will go in during the stage? Does the shooter need a mag pouch on their belt?

[kjkestner]

What optic was on the MkI?

I was a late 80's or early 90's vintage Ultra Dot or Aimpoint type red dot in a 30mm tube.   I don't know where it is exactly right now to look and confirm.

[LDB415]

What optic was on the MkI?

I was a late 80's or early 90's vintage Ultra Dot or Aimpoint type red dot in a 30mm tube.   I don't know where it is exactly right now to look and confirm.

Close enough. I have a MK IV 22/45 and fantasies of being able to attend and make it through a pistol clinic with that heavy monster. In two-hand stages yes, right-hand one can always hope, weak hand (arm) it's good to dream.

[Burnett]

Related questions:

When you start a stage of a PQT, how does the shooter actually start?

Pistol loaded, round in chamber? Safety on or off?

Pistol holstered? Pistol held at low ready? Pistol aimed at the target?

And for a mag change stage, how does the shooter retain the mag that will go in during the stage? Does the shooter need a mag pouch on their belt?

You'll be standing at a table. Pistol loaded, low ready. NO drawing from holster. For the reload stages, the 2nd mag will be on the table.

[kjkestner]

What optic was on the MkI?

I was a late 80's or early 90's vintage Ultra Dot or Aimpoint type red dot in a 30mm tube.  I don't know where it is exactly right now to look and confirm.

Close enough. I have a MK IV 22/45 and fantasies of being able to attend and make it through a pistol clinic with that heavy monster. In two-hand stages yes, right-hand one can always hope, weak hand (arm) it's good to dream.

Yes, holding that 6" heavy barrel up for 2 days was a challenge but knowing that any missed shot was me and not the accuracy of the pistol made it worth the effort.

[StuartV]

Related questions:

When you start a stage of a PQT, how does the shooter actually start?

Pistol loaded, round in chamber? Safety on or off?

Pistol holstered? Pistol held at low ready? Pistol aimed at the target?

And for a mag change stage, how does the shooter retain the mag that will go in during the stage? Does the shooter need a mag pouch on their belt?

You'll be standing at a table. Pistol loaded, low ready. NO drawing from holster. For the reload stages, the 2nd mag will be on the table.

Got it. Thank you!

[StuartV]

What optic was on the MkI?

I was a late 80's or early 90's vintage Ultra Dot or Aimpoint type red dot in a 30mm tube.  I don't know where it is exactly right now to look and confirm.

Close enough. I have a MK IV 22/45 and fantasies of being able to attend and make it through a pistol clinic with that heavy monster. In two-hand stages yes, right-hand one can always hope, weak hand (arm) it's good to dream.

Yes, holding that 6" heavy barrel up for 2 days was a challenge but knowing that any missed shot was me and not the accuracy of the pistol made it worth the effort.

At low ready with the safety on or off? Or shooter's choice?

I got some PQT targets from the Appleseed store and I want to practice correctly.

[Burnett]

What optic was on the MkI?

I was a late 80's or early 90's vintage Ultra Dot or Aimpoint type red dot in a 30mm tube.  I don't know where it is exactly right now to look and confirm.

Close enough. I have a MK IV 22/45 and fantasies of being able to attend and make it through a pistol clinic with that heavy monster. In two-hand stages yes, right-hand one can always hope, weak hand (arm) it's good to dream.

Yes, holding that 6" heavy barrel up for 2 days was a challenge but knowing that any missed shot was me and not the accuracy of the pistol made it worth the effort.

At low ready with the safety on or off? Or shooter's choice?

I got some PQT targets from the Appleseed store and I want to practice correctly.

Your choice. Just like a rifle event, the preparation period has ended, you're just waiting for the "FIRE!" command. And remember, nowadays, a lot of pistols don't even have an external safety.