News:

We need volunteers in sales, marketing, PR, IT, and general "running of an organization." 
Maximize your Appleseed energy to make this program grow, and help fill the empty spots
on the firing line!  An hour of time spent at this level can have the impact of ten or a
hundred hours on the firing line.  Want to help? Send a PM to Monkey!

Main Menu

Overenthusiastic Newguy

Started by Ricochet Rabbit, February 09, 2017, 11:49:15 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

Ricochet Rabbit

Hello All,

I finally committed to an Appleseed (New Philadelphia in April) and joined the forum, and I am itching to get out there and shoot. In the interim, I figured an intro might be in order. I grew up and currently live in the suburbs east of Cleveland. I've been involved in shooting my whole life and spent 7 years in the Army. Since leaving the Army, I have missed the shooting and qualifications, so learning about Appleseed made my day.

I've been building up to attending an Appleseed since I first learned about it in late fall of 2016. I went out and bought a rifle (Ruger American Rimfire) a set of TechSites, and a GI web sling. I also ordered some of the targets from Appleseed. I have heard that .22s tend to be particular about ammo, so I ordered an assortment of target ammo, threw everything in the car, and headed out to the range for sighting in and testing:













Ultimately, I was not very happy with the results. I was really struggling with the sights, much more so than I recall from my experience in the Army with my M16A1 and M16A2. The groups were all fired from a bench rest with bags, and yet they are extremely inconsistent, and the inconsistency goes beyond merely the size: the point of aim is not terribly consistent either. This leads me to believe I am simply not very good with iron sights anymore, and I know for a fact that my eyesight is not what it once was. Anyway, nothing was horrible, so I thought I could probably still do okay at Appleseed. I went ahead and did some positional practice with some cheaper Thunderbolt ammo:





None of these strings were timed, just getting an idea of what I could do with the rifle. I left the range a little sad at my eyesight limitations, but mostly happy that I could even see the targets and hit them.

Then I went to the local indoor range. This is a newer facility and really quite nice, probably the best indoor range I've been to. Still, the lighting indoors is not the same as outside. I found that I could barely find the rear peep hole to look through and had a very frustrating session.

Thus, I broke down and bought an inexpensive scope (Bushnell Banner Dusk & Dawn 4-12x40mm with adjustable objective). I've done some preliminary shooting at the indoor range and, thus far, am extremely pleased with my decision to go with a scope. I am hoping to gather some more ammo and get to the outdoor range prior to April so that I can get it sighted in from a bench and do some more ammo testing. If I do, I will get some more pics and post the results. If not, I look forward to meeting everyone in April and doing some shooting.

St8space
"The most natural and eligible mode of attack on the part of the people is that of detached parties of bushmen who from their adroitness in the habitual use of the firelock suppose themselves sure of their mark at a distance of 200 [yards]." - Thomas Gage, March 4th, 1775

"Good intentions will always be pleaded for every assumption
of authority. It is hardly too strong to say that the
Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters." - Daniel Webster

"When all connection, upheld by commerce, with the mother country, shall cease, it may be suspected that an independency of her government will soon follow." - Thomas Gage

EZ3

Forgive me if this is a silly question, but do you shoot with your dominant eye?  I ran into the same (eyesight) issue a few years ago and decided to solve it by switching sides to my dominant eye.  Went to a Rifleman's Boot Camp to learn to shoot lefty, and it gave me a whole new outlook on things.  ::)

That said, I still usually use a scope, especially for Known Distance.
"You can't teach Liberty by practicing tyranny." -  Mr. Happy

Ricochet Rabbit

Not a silly question at all. I do shoot with my dominant eye. I was lucky to wind up right eye dominant (I write lefty), so I don't have to deal with brass flying across my face lol. My fiancee, on the other hand is left eye dominant. I was teaching her how to shoot my AR (back when I had one) and she was trying to look through the scope with her left eye while holding it right handed...that doesn't really work so well lol.
"The most natural and eligible mode of attack on the part of the people is that of detached parties of bushmen who from their adroitness in the habitual use of the firelock suppose themselves sure of their mark at a distance of 200 [yards]." - Thomas Gage, March 4th, 1775

"Good intentions will always be pleaded for every assumption
of authority. It is hardly too strong to say that the
Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters." - Daniel Webster

"When all connection, upheld by commerce, with the mother country, shall cease, it may be suspected that an independency of her government will soon follow." - Thomas Gage

SteelThunder

My input would be don't sweat the equipment and ammo so much.

Appleseed is about practical field shooting -- 4MOA.  From your targets -- irons or scope -- you're well on your way.  We want you to be able to pickup a "rack grade" rifle, with surplus/bulk ammo and shoot 4 MOA.  It's mostly about technique and not so much about equipment.

My advice?  Use a scope for the first Appleseed.  You've already got the GI sling.  The Ruger American is a fine little rifle...the bolt action will give you a little bit bigger challenge for the timed portions but roll with it...semi auto if you can.  Buy a brick (or 3) of CCI Blazer or Federal bulk pack. 

If you get a patch with that, come back and shoot it with irons.
NRA Patron Member, SAF Life Member
NRA Certified Rifle Instructor, RSO
Warlord of the West

Ultima vox civis
"Learning occurs only after repetitive, demoralizing failures." - Pat Rogers
"Silence in the face of evil is itself evil; God will not hold us guiltless. Not to speak is to speak. Not to act is to act." - Dietrich Bonhoeffer
"So live your life that the fear of death can never enter your heart." - Tecumseh
"Never attribute to treachery, that which can adequately be explained by incompetence" - Bonaparte, Hanlon, et al

Ricochet Rabbit

Thanks for the advice SteelThunder. I figure, if I manage a patch with the scope, the irons will simply be the next challenge.
"The most natural and eligible mode of attack on the part of the people is that of detached parties of bushmen who from their adroitness in the habitual use of the firelock suppose themselves sure of their mark at a distance of 200 [yards]." - Thomas Gage, March 4th, 1775

"Good intentions will always be pleaded for every assumption
of authority. It is hardly too strong to say that the
Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters." - Daniel Webster

"When all connection, upheld by commerce, with the mother country, shall cease, it may be suspected that an independency of her government will soon follow." - Thomas Gage

DEH

#5
A couple of things from my perspective:
1. Don't overthink this too much.
2.  Go to an Appleseed.
3. Other than a rifle, GI web sling, mags and ammo I wouldn't invest in any addt'l equipment until after your first AS.  It's easy to turn this into an equipment race and easy to purchase the wrong equipment.  Wait and see what you need.  You will learn plenty at your first shoot.
4. Your problem with the sights MAY be related to the shorter sight radius of the Ruger compared to the A1 and A2. Closer sights are harder to focus on than the ones that are farther out.  If you are older you may have problems focusing on closer objects anyway.   While the shorter sight radius does not affect the mechanical accuracy of the rifle (usually), it may affect the practical accuracy when the hardware interfaces with the software (you). 
-Appleseed: '08-IBC, '09-Red Hat, '09-FT Stewart, '10-RBC, '14, '15, '22 KD
-I.C.E '11 Combat Focus Shooting.
-Tactical Response. '09-'12
-Fighting Rifle/Pistol, Immediate Action Medical, Way of the Rifle
-MTN Guerrilla-2013/Irreg Warfare
-Max Velocity Tactical. 2013-2022. RIFLEMAN,TEAM COYOTE
 CRCDx2,Combat Patrol, Rifleman Challenge,CQB,CTT,FOFx2. DCHx2.
-2Cor10:4-5. For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds; Casting down imaginations and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, & bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ.

maxwell

I'll echo everyone else's comment on equipment and ammo: match ammo is overkill for Appleseed's standard. Buy ammo that doesn't malfunction and/or gunk up your chamber too bad, and you'll be fine.

In addition to DEH's sight radius comment, do make sure you're focusing on the front sight, not switching back and forth between front/rear/target. My eyes are too old to get away with that.

The comment about point of aim not being consistent and having trouble finding the peep sight makes me wonder if your head position is correct. Try getting your eye closer to the rear sight (turkey neck) and establish a good cheek weld: this ensures correct sight alignment, which we teach as the first step of firing a shot.

Ricochet Rabbit

Went to the indoor range today and got in a little practice from standing. Unfortunately, the outdoor range I typically go to (ODNR at Grand River) is closed in January and February, so the rifle still hasn't been sighted in properly from a bench, but it's good enough to hit the 100 yard targets. And, quite frankly, I doubt I'd see much of a difference from standing lol.

Anyway, all of the shooting was done with a loop sling (first time using one for me), and I learned a few things. First, when I go to run the bolt, the butt pops out of the pocket and onto my deltoid. This is truly annoying, and doesn't seem to occur when I use the hasty sling. Second, where the targets are hanging in the indoor range, I can slide my support hand all the way back under the magazine, and I still don't get a good natural point of aim on the top, 100 yard target. Obviously, side-to-side is not an issue.

Still, I managed to hit the 100 yarders with reasonable consistency. Hopefully, the instructors at Appleseed will help me to overcome some of my shortcomings and shrink the groups down into the 5 ring. All-in-all, it was a good session. I really enjoy this rifle. The bolt is plenty smooth and, being a .22, the throw is short and fast. The trigger on this gun is about as good as any I have ever had. It's infinitely nicer than a stock AR trigger lol. It also just feels good in my hands, and I suspect the longer, 22 inch barrel has a lot to do with that. I also suspect it will be close to 1 MOA accurate once I get a chance to shoot it from the bench with the scope.

So, here are my results. I did initially attempt to shoot an entire redcoat target from standing, and then got realistic and stuck with the 100 yard targets:







It's funny how much military shooting changes through the years. When I was in, we only shot from prone (supported and unsupported) and foxholes (also supported and unsupported). Also, the further targets were always the taller, full-size silhouettes and they only went out to 300 meters. So, this Appleseed shooting from three positions and out to 400 is going to be a pleasant challenge and a good learning experience.

Hope everyone's having a great weekend,

St8space
"The most natural and eligible mode of attack on the part of the people is that of detached parties of bushmen who from their adroitness in the habitual use of the firelock suppose themselves sure of their mark at a distance of 200 [yards]." - Thomas Gage, March 4th, 1775

"Good intentions will always be pleaded for every assumption
of authority. It is hardly too strong to say that the
Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters." - Daniel Webster

"When all connection, upheld by commerce, with the mother country, shall cease, it may be suspected that an independency of her government will soon follow." - Thomas Gage

Rev.357

Your shooting looks good to me. You are mostly in the black, and mostly in the black usually means you are in the neighborhood. Check the consistency of your cheek weld is good advice. Watch your breathing. Exhale and squeeeeze at your respiratory pause. Focus on your front sight, and come out to an Appleseed. Give the coaches a chance to watch you and offer instruction. You can do this old school, bolt action and iron sights. BTW: 40 grains and subsonic (around a thousand fps) is a good starting point.  Send, 'Em.
He that beliveth on the Son hath everlasting life: John 3:36
Life: Endowed by our Creator, made possible by Christ the Lord.

Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. Galatians 5:1
Liberty: Endowed by our Creator, made possible by Christ the Lord.

Repent yet therefore, and be converted, Acts 3:19
Pursuit of Happiness: Endowed by our Creator, coined by John Locke, made possible by Christ our Lord.

Author of: "Ad  Hoc,  Post Hoc; Educational Programs In Camping." Christian Education Journal, Winter 1993.
Author of: Interpersonal Physics: Authority Statics and Effectivity Dynamics as Factors of Influence. Wheaton,  IL: UMI 1991.

Ricochet Rabbit

Thanks for the encouraging words and advice Rev.357.
"The most natural and eligible mode of attack on the part of the people is that of detached parties of bushmen who from their adroitness in the habitual use of the firelock suppose themselves sure of their mark at a distance of 200 [yards]." - Thomas Gage, March 4th, 1775

"Good intentions will always be pleaded for every assumption
of authority. It is hardly too strong to say that the
Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters." - Daniel Webster

"When all connection, upheld by commerce, with the mother country, shall cease, it may be suspected that an independency of her government will soon follow." - Thomas Gage

Corvette

New Guy,

I will be your Shoot Boss in April at New Philly.  Your dedication in preparing is impressive. Can't wait to meet you and work with you on your patch. Scope or open sights, doesn't really matter. I suspect after our Sat instructions on the fundamentals, I suspect you will do just fine.

Now, you are bringing your wife with you right?😃

Would love to have her join us at the event.

See you in April.

Corvette
Be bold, brave and forthright and the bold, the brave and the forthright will gather around you!

Ricochet Rabbit

Not sure at this point, still working on getting her out shooting. She's shot my pistols and AR, but has never really been into it. Maybe some quality instruction would help with that. She is very intimidated by guns. I will likely try to get her or my son out with me. Looking into picking up a 795 or a 10/22 when tax returns come in. Just gotta make a decision before the shoot sells out lol. Eventually, I'd like to get my daughter involved as well, but I think all four of us at once would be a stretch right now.
"The most natural and eligible mode of attack on the part of the people is that of detached parties of bushmen who from their adroitness in the habitual use of the firelock suppose themselves sure of their mark at a distance of 200 [yards]." - Thomas Gage, March 4th, 1775

"Good intentions will always be pleaded for every assumption
of authority. It is hardly too strong to say that the
Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters." - Daniel Webster

"When all connection, upheld by commerce, with the mother country, shall cease, it may be suspected that an independency of her government will soon follow." - Thomas Gage

TomM1Thumb

My 2 cents, Get the Tickets to Your shoot now, If You have to barrow a loaner rifle or 2.
As for ammo to me it looks like Your rifle likes the federal Gold Metal Match. If You can afford it and You may need upwards of 300 to 500 rounds of it for an Appleseed  event.
the Thunderbolt looks good also. and try also Federal Automatch.  yes it will work in Your bolt action.

Please Enjoy Your event.

TomM1Thumb
" The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms. €�  - Alexander Hamilton
"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."    -- Thomas Jefferson

" The Beauty of The Second Amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it"
Thomas Jefferson

Arms discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property... Horrid mischief would ensue were the law-abiding deprived of the use of them.

Thomas Paine

Corvette

Well, if the wife, son or daughter wish to join us, let me know.  We can always arrange for loaner rifles for them.  That way, if its not their cup of tea, you have not invested much beyond ammo.  We do it all the time.  I have four or five rifles that students use regularly.  I never get to shoot them, I just get to clean them at the end of the weekend.   ;D

Just let me know when you sign up, what you might need in terms of equipment. 

Corvette

Quote from: St8space on February 12, 2017, 04:34:29 PM
Not sure at this point, still working on getting her out shooting. She's shot my pistols and AR, but has never really been into it. Maybe some quality instruction would help with that. She is very intimidated by guns. I will likely try to get her or my son out with me. Looking into picking up a 795 or a 10/22 when tax returns come in. Just gotta make a decision before the shoot sells out lol. Eventually, I'd like to get my daughter involved as well, but I think all four of us at once would be a stretch right now.
Be bold, brave and forthright and the bold, the brave and the forthright will gather around you!

goodoldfriend

Welcome to Appleseed and the forum.

I have to use a scope now but I still might try irons some time just to torture myself.

When I read about your issue the first thing that came to mind is cheek weld, I know a couple guys have already said it.

Until I got my scope mounted far enough forward I could not reproduce my position because I was turtle necking. I had to find a good stock that fit me for LOP and position my head high enough to see through the scope. Then it was just get the fundamentals down and practice, practice.

I hope to meet you sometime at an event. It is nice to hear of your persistence. It will pay off.
1st Appleseed 11/23/2012, Crittenden, KY
2nd Appleseed 7/16/2016, Wilmington, OH
3rd Appleseed 10/2/2016, Newark, OH
Rifleman (213) 10/2/2016

PaRifle1777

Overenthusiastic Newguy,
I have been enjoying your story.  I was Overenthusiastic Newguy last August when I heard about the Appleseed Program.  I immediately registered for a weekend last October in Marion.  To say I couldn't wait would have been a massive understatement.  So, I know what's going through your mind.  I would not try to give you any shooting advise.  The Appleseed Instructors are more than capable of that.  But, I may be able to offer some help from the newguy point of view.
1.  The most important thing that you can bring is a TEACHABLE ATTITUDE.  They will cover every aspect of firing the shot.  You need to   
     be listening.
2.  Make sure you are thoroughly familiar with your rifle.  You need to know how to operate it and be smooth when changing mags.
3.  They will tell you that what they tell you works.  It does!  See number1.
4.  Let the weekend happen.  You will have a great time.  The shooting, the history, it's all good.
5.  Someone might say that it's like drinking from a fire hose.  For me it was more like eating an elephant, but we did it one bite at a time!
     They will cover something then you will work on it.  So, it was a graduated learning process.

Before the weekend I fired about 1000 rounds to get ready for the weekend.  I was never able to complete an AQT in the allotted time.  During the weekend I qualified on the second, timed AQT on Sunday morning.  I think I'm probably much older than you and my old eyes could not see through my glasses and peep sight in the prone position.  Glasses too low, sight too high.  So, I went to a scope that I focused without my glasses.  Then I used clear safety glasses.  My son qualified with the peep sights.

I hope this helps.  You will have a good time.

PaRifle1777

Ricochet Rabbit

Thanks for the advice PaRifle1777; it's nice to hear from another newer Appleseed guy. To your point on equipment familarity, I do believe magazine changes are indeed going to be a challenge. My rifle uses the same magazines as the 10/22, but mine is particularly picky about how I insert the mag, and, if I don't get it right, it just won't go. Many years ago (mid 90s) I owned a 10/22, and while I never had to do changes against the clock, I seem to recall it being more forgiving. It could just be a matter of break in, who knows? I have been practicing though, so hopefully it won't be a major issue.

My eyes definitely have been giving me problems though, so I have an eye appointment Friday. I have always required glasses for distance correction, but of late I am having to hold menus and such at arms length to read them, and that is recent (within the last year or so). So I am going to stick with a scope for this first one and see how that goes.

Have a great day and happy shooting,

St8space
"The most natural and eligible mode of attack on the part of the people is that of detached parties of bushmen who from their adroitness in the habitual use of the firelock suppose themselves sure of their mark at a distance of 200 [yards]." - Thomas Gage, March 4th, 1775

"Good intentions will always be pleaded for every assumption
of authority. It is hardly too strong to say that the
Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters." - Daniel Webster

"When all connection, upheld by commerce, with the mother country, shall cease, it may be suspected that an independency of her government will soon follow." - Thomas Gage

SteelThunder

#17
I pulled this out of the archive...it is the best review of why <heresyalert> GROUP SIZE DOESN'T MATTER, or more specifically why it doesn't make sense to obsess, and spend massive amounts of time/money, over equipment and ammo. Of course this is within reason...a rifle and ammo that is reasonably accurate is what we need.  Once we get over that, practical accuracy -- the software side -- is WAY more dependent on shooter technique.   I also concede that spending lots of time and money on rifle/ammo accuracy is addictive and fun.

Of course this is all because of statistics and normal distributions.  The linked article uses Monte Carlo simulations showing the effects of a hypothetical rifle/ammo combo.  Looking at a 10" target at 700 yards (~1.5 MOA target), no wind, no "shooter factor", a 1 MOA rifle/ammo combo gets you a 69.7% hit probability.  Drop that to 0.5 MOA capability and your hit probability goes up to 78%.  Drop to 0.3 MOA and probability only goes up to 80% and at 0.1 MOA you're getting tiny gains to 80.7%.  Net-net, good enough is good enough.  It's all about technique.

http://precisionrifleblog.com/2015/04/15/how-much-does-group-size-matter/

You're doing just fine.  Your focus on building a solid position, thinking through the 6 steps to firing a shot and learning/practicing/not "cheating" on NPOA will be the best investments you can make.
NRA Patron Member, SAF Life Member
NRA Certified Rifle Instructor, RSO
Warlord of the West

Ultima vox civis
"Learning occurs only after repetitive, demoralizing failures." - Pat Rogers
"Silence in the face of evil is itself evil; God will not hold us guiltless. Not to speak is to speak. Not to act is to act." - Dietrich Bonhoeffer
"So live your life that the fear of death can never enter your heart." - Tecumseh
"Never attribute to treachery, that which can adequately be explained by incompetence" - Bonaparte, Hanlon, et al

PaRifle1777

St8Space,
I guess I didn't think about the magazine in your rifle being the same as in the 10/22.  I found this gadget called a "Companion Bumper" made by Tandemkross.  (Spelling may be incorrect).  The Companion Bumper attaches to the bottom of the Ruger magazine and gives a nice little lip on each side of the mag to grip it.  I used it on the mag loaded with 2 rounds in the second and third stages of the AQT.  In addition to the lip to grab it adds a little weight that helps the mag want to fall out.  I know a lot of guys that say you need different parts on the 10/22 to make them better but at least for me the stock rifle worked fine.  I found CCI Standard velocity more than adequate for this type of shooting.  You can find them for $35.00 - $40.00 for 500 rounds.

Good luck.

PaRifle1777

Mutant Texan

Quote from: PaRifle1777 on February 16, 2017, 10:28:17 AM
St8Space,
I know a lot of guys that say you need different parts on the 10/22 to make them better but at least for me the stock rifle worked fine.  I found CCI Standard velocity more than adequate for this type of shooting.  You can find them for $35.00 - $40.00 for 500 rounds.

Good luck.

PaRifle1777

Mostly agree.  The only items that I added to my Ruger 10/22 rifle when I shot my first Rifleman score was a set of Tech Sights, a USGI sling and QD sling swivels.  The stock sights on a 10/22 are terrible!     

I found out early on that the slower 40 grain ammo to be more consistent.  Leave the HV at home and just bring a standard velocity ammo.
"Their drills are bloodless battles, and their battles bloody drills."

    Flavius Josephus, Jewish Historian, AD 37--101, on the Roman military

goodoldfriend

You did not say if you are having trouble inserting or removing the magazine.

For my 10/22 clone I have to insert the magazine with the front edge slightly tilted up in the front. I don't really know why, I just found that it is more reliable that way.

My magazines drop when I release them. I know that with some 10/22s the magazines are tight and will not drop free. I have read that a little, meaning with a high grit paper, one can try to figure out where they are hanging up and remove a tiny bit of material from the mag or stock.

You might also pose the question to Bob the fireman (I think that is his name) on the forums.

And I totally understand about the eyes.
1st Appleseed 11/23/2012, Crittenden, KY
2nd Appleseed 7/16/2016, Wilmington, OH
3rd Appleseed 10/2/2016, Newark, OH
Rifleman (213) 10/2/2016

Ricochet Rabbit

Thanks for the link SteelThunder, that was an interesting read. I am a nerdy engineering type, so the math is right up my alley.

Quotea 1 MOA rifle/ammo combo gets you a 69.7% hit probability.  Drop that to 0.5 MOA capability and your hit probability goes up to 78%.

So, as long as I get to 0.5 moa (approximately 1/8th inch groups at 25 yards), I should be good  O0  Just kidding. Actually, I'd be ecstatic with 1 moa, and okay with 1 to 2. I am definitely not pleased with the 2 to 4 that I got with the peep sights. It may be sufficient for rifleman, but it's pretty disappointing regardless.

QuoteI also concede that spending lots of time and money on rifle/ammo accuracy is addictive and fun.

This is it really. I do understand that I could achieve rifleman with "rack grade" accuracy, but where's the fun in that? I actually do not have a ton of dough to spend, so I won't be souping up a 10/22 anytime soon, but it DOES sound like fun  :)  I grew up reading Guns and Ammo and I always wanted to grow up to be Ross Seyfried lol. So, I will likely continue testing rifles and ammo from a bench to see what they do. But don't be fooled, that's not all I am doing. I just love shooting, so I am practicing my fundamentals and positions, both at the range as well as dry firing at home.

QuoteI found this gadget called a "Companion Bumper" made by Tandemkross.

Thanks for this PaRifle1777, I found their website and these look like some pretty handy additions, so they have been added to my list of nice to have items for future purchase.

QuoteI found CCI Standard velocity more than adequate for this type of shooting.

Standard velocity seems to be the consensus, so I will likely stick with that. I can't recall who recommended them, but I picked up a box of Federal Auto Match to try out. They were 26 bucks for 300 rounds and that's pretty reasonable. Also, oddly enough, the Thunderbolts seem to do okay and they are even cheaper. I am not sure what the ballistics are for these, but I will run some groups with them to get an "official" idea of how they perform.

QuoteFor my 10/22 clone I have to insert the magazine with the front edge slightly tilted up in the front. I don't really know why, I just found that it is more reliable that way.

Hello goodoldfriend, this is exactly what I have going on. And the angle is fairly specific; too flat or too canted, and it just won't go. I don't think it will be a showstopper, just something I need to get used to so I can achieve smooth reloads.

QuoteMy magazines drop when I release them. I know that with some 10/22s the magazines are tight and will not drop free.

Mine do not drop free, so I may do a little tinkering with this. I've been running the bolt back after my last shot and popping a finger through the opening to make the magazine fall out, but this is kinda slow.

"The most natural and eligible mode of attack on the part of the people is that of detached parties of bushmen who from their adroitness in the habitual use of the firelock suppose themselves sure of their mark at a distance of 200 [yards]." - Thomas Gage, March 4th, 1775

"Good intentions will always be pleaded for every assumption
of authority. It is hardly too strong to say that the
Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters." - Daniel Webster

"When all connection, upheld by commerce, with the mother country, shall cease, it may be suspected that an independency of her government will soon follow." - Thomas Gage

Ricochet Rabbit

So I got my son registered for New Philadelphia in April this morning, and he's excited to get out there with me.

I went out and picked up a second rifle. Believe me, I agonized over this one. It's like nobody makes an inexpensive rifle that has everything that I wanted, so I had to make some major compromises:



I realize that some people have complained about this rifle, so we'll see, I took a pretty big risk on it I guess. It doesn't have sling studs, but I can install those with no problem (I already bought them).

I like that it came with a scope, even if it is a cheap one. It looks reasonably clear, but it doesn't have an adjustable objective, so I'll have to see how it does at the range. I don't much care for dovetail mounting, but, again, I'll have to see. I do know that whoever mounted it at the factory hasn't much of a clue, so I'll be pulling it off and putting it back on properly. It looks like I should be able to move it forward quite a bit as well. Ultimately, if the dovetail rings give me problems, it appears as though the receiver is drilled and tapped for Weaver or Picatinny.

I don't find an issue with the magazines (some people complain that they are difficult to load) and I really like the way they go in and out of the gun (very smooth and positive). Again, we'll have to see how they feed at the range.

A sharp eye will note the lack of irons. So this won't ever be a peep rifle, unless I have a gunsmith drill the barrel for a front sight post. I am okay with that for now. If the wife and kids get a hankering for the challenge of irons, we'll cross that bridge when we get to it.

For now, it feels like a solid rifle and it didn't break the bank (less than a 10/22 without a scope). I think the family will have plenty of fun with this rifle.
"The most natural and eligible mode of attack on the part of the people is that of detached parties of bushmen who from their adroitness in the habitual use of the firelock suppose themselves sure of their mark at a distance of 200 [yards]." - Thomas Gage, March 4th, 1775

"Good intentions will always be pleaded for every assumption
of authority. It is hardly too strong to say that the
Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters." - Daniel Webster

"When all connection, upheld by commerce, with the mother country, shall cease, it may be suspected that an independency of her government will soon follow." - Thomas Gage

goodoldfriend

I have a Remington 597. I think it was my first rifle. It was not long until I replaced the scope.

I always liked the way it shoots. The dovetail is a pain. I don't know if I ever got the scope moved forward far enough. It was no big deal to install sling studs. I can't remember if I just drilled the holes small and sort of self tapped the studs in, it seems like that is what I did.

I did not get a scope base although that was always on my list of things to do...maybe this summer.

I hope you post how things are going with this rifle.
1st Appleseed 11/23/2012, Crittenden, KY
2nd Appleseed 7/16/2016, Wilmington, OH
3rd Appleseed 10/2/2016, Newark, OH
Rifleman (213) 10/2/2016

Mutant Texan

Quote from: St8space on February 17, 2017, 04:04:39 PM

I went out and picked up a second rifle. Believe me, I agonized over this one. It's like nobody makes an inexpensive rifle that has everything that I wanted, so I had to make some major compromises:

For now, it feels like a solid rifle and it didn't break the bank (less than a 10/22 without a scope). I think the family will have plenty of fun with this rifle.


I am sure that it will work.  If you want to try a Ruger 10/22 without spending a lot of money, go to a gun show and pick up a used one.  I know from my buying experiences that the new Ruger 10/22 are more expensive than many of the others.  I have not tried a Marlin or Remington rifle and don't have any personal experience on them to make an informed opinion.
"Their drills are bloodless battles, and their battles bloody drills."

    Flavius Josephus, Jewish Historian, AD 37--101, on the Roman military

Ricochet Rabbit

All of my practice thus far (both live and dry fire) has been untimed. Today I thought I'd run through the stages against the clock, dry fire. What an eye opener. The second and third stages require blazing speed with that bolt. I can get all the shots off as long as I do everything just right. If I fumble the mag change, forget to turn the safety off for the first shot, or don't get close to NPOA upon sitting, forget about it lol. Also, the pressure of the clock encourages rushing the shots and I am guessing that, had I been firing live, my scores would not have been stellar.

This is also the first time I have worked with my glasses, rather than contacts. All the action makes my glasses start to ride down my nose until I am looking through the upper rim, giving me a doubled scope picture.

Anyway, all of this adds up to increased respect for those who have the patch, particularly those who have done it with a bolt gun.
"The most natural and eligible mode of attack on the part of the people is that of detached parties of bushmen who from their adroitness in the habitual use of the firelock suppose themselves sure of their mark at a distance of 200 [yards]." - Thomas Gage, March 4th, 1775

"Good intentions will always be pleaded for every assumption
of authority. It is hardly too strong to say that the
Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters." - Daniel Webster

"When all connection, upheld by commerce, with the mother country, shall cease, it may be suspected that an independency of her government will soon follow." - Thomas Gage

Charles McKinley

#26
Suggestions to a Military Rifleman. by Townsend Whelen is a great book on shooting and running a bolt gun.

http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=39075.msg281721#msg281721

There are also a few threads here with suggestions on shooting score with a bolt.

As EZ3 has said many times, "Slow is smooth.  Smooth is fast."

Good shots are more important than fast shots. 7 shots in the 5 ring are more than 10 in the 3 ring and misses.
Once you get used to it you will have time left over in stages 2 and 3.

Learn to work the bolt without breaking your cheek weld.  If you can find a Rifleman to make sure you aren't engraining bad habits.

Bring someone with you.  With a little notice we can get a loaner rifle, sling, mat, etc.

Finally and most importantly RELAX and have FUN.  The techniques and the score will come.

Just a guess here but your comb probably isn't high enough and your scope isn't far ahead enough.  I can post pics of my Ruger Rimfire American if you want.

Chuck
Last evening, it occurred to me that when a defender of Liberty is called home, their load lands upon the shoulders of the defenders left behind. Just as the Founders did their duty for Liberty, every subsequent generation must continue their work lest Liberty perish. As there is no way for the remaining adults to take on the work of those that die, we must pass the ideals and duties on to the children. -PHenery

Ricochet Rabbit

Hello Chuck. Thanks for the book suggestion. I had been aware of it, but, for whatever reason, never got around to reading it. I was pleasantly surprised to find it on Google Play Books as a free download. The American Rifle is on there as well and I read the first chapter last night.

QuoteLearn to work the bolt without breaking your cheek weld.  If you can find a Rifleman to make sure you aren't engraining bad habits.

I've been running the bolt with the rifle shouldered, but I believe that I am lifting my head. Thanks for the tip, because, thinking about it, reacquiring the proper eye relief must be taking a lot of time. I'm going to try to incorporate your advice in my next practice session.

QuoteBring someone with you.  With a little notice we can get a loaner rifle, sling, mat, etc.

I signed my son up and got him a rifle to shoot. I suspect bringing the whole family would be too much right now, even with loaners. However, if it gets closer and the shooting line isn't filling up, and they want to come, I might consider having all four of us attend.

QuoteJust a guess here but your comb probably isn't high enough and your scope isn't far ahead enough.  I can post pics of my Ruger Rimfire American if you want.

I'd love to see your setup. I am not entirely pleased with how my scope is mounted, but I will work on it in the future as money permits. However, I haven't even attended my first event and I am already daydreaming about a centerfire lol. And there is the rest of the family to consider; I'd love to get them all out there and qualified eventually.

Btw, I realize that this thread is getting a bit long winded. I am not really sure about forum etiquette and splitting threads, so if I should start new threads, let me know. I just know that I enjoyed reading about other's experiences, so I figured this would be a good running commentary for other new shooters. And, as you may have surmised, I do enjoy writing. In fact, I spend about 75% of my professional time doing just that.
"The most natural and eligible mode of attack on the part of the people is that of detached parties of bushmen who from their adroitness in the habitual use of the firelock suppose themselves sure of their mark at a distance of 200 [yards]." - Thomas Gage, March 4th, 1775

"Good intentions will always be pleaded for every assumption
of authority. It is hardly too strong to say that the
Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters." - Daniel Webster

"When all connection, upheld by commerce, with the mother country, shall cease, it may be suspected that an independency of her government will soon follow." - Thomas Gage

Twineagles

My experience with the Remington 597 is they like to be clean. Also to hold the bolt back if you didn't empty the mag is a little tricky. In the mag well is a small pin you need to press while holding the bolt back. I have seen some strong scores shot with them.

Mike
Every time I teach a class, I discover I don�t know something - Clint Smith

Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday. � John Wayne

The Wolfhound

Push that scope as far forward as possible in those rings.  I like my 597.  Be careful what you feed it.  It will like to stay clean.  Plan on cleaning Saturday night.  They are plenty accurate.  Malfunctions have been the issues I have seen.  Easiest .22LR mag to load, once they break in.  Keepshooting.com has 597 mags on sale TODAY.