CMP Talladega, AL - Dec 3rd, 2016 - Known Distance

[Maximum Ordinate]

It was early... overcast and chilly... but it was an Appleseed weekend!  The instructors met for breakfast at Waffle House.  It's a Tennessee Valley tradition down here!  Stories were swapped, lies tales of outstanding marksmanship prowess were told, hot greasy food and scalding coffee was consumed... and then this motley crew caravaned to the CMP Marksmanship Park in Talladega.  It was going to be a great day!

Fifteen Patriots and a half-dozen instructors met for the final Project Appleseed clinic in Alabama in 2016.  This day was unlike many of the other KD weekends - it was streamlined to one day: light on instruction and heavy on shooting!

We completed sighters to gather data and six AQTs.  Congratulations to the nine shooters who qualified or requalified!

Dan (47/50)
Dexter (40/50)
Google (47/50)
Garrett (45/50)
Jared (42/50)
Max Ordinate (4750)
Pete (New Rifleman! 45/50)
Ramblin' Wreck (50/50, four times)
Ross 43/45

A special mention about Pete who earned his Rifleman patch today!

We had three Appleseeders step up and ask for Orange Hats: Gary, Dan, and Pete!  Welcome to the program, gents!

Thanks to all who came out.  I hope to see y'all at our next KD - a Patriot's Day Celebration KD on April 15th!

in Liberty,
Maximum Ordinate



It's soooooooooo early!


Awarding Alabama state patches for visiting instructors


Jared getting his gold state patch for meritorious service


Gary's new hat!


Cokeguy not sure where this is going... (he was about to be promoted to dSB!)


Getting our mentor into the pic...


Traditional group photo at CMP Talladega!
... but feel free to add your own!!   

First group of KD qualifiers!


Small Arms Firing School instructor, Distinguished Rifleman, and guest instructor Don Rutherford talking to our class about the intricacies of reading wind


Dan accepting his Orange Hat


FOUR perfect KD scores for Ramblin' Wreck!


Pete accepting his Orange Hat!



You can find a bunch more pictures here

[navybowhunter]

Come on!

Ya'll should have got Don to take an Orange Hat!

Good stuff!  Really stoked that they (CMP) are supporting Appleseed!

R/
Chris

[AH1Tom]

It was my first KD but will certainly not be my last. It was a great day at an incredible facility. I had the pleasure of watching my son, Jared, qualify KD but also the disappointment of not qualifying myself. I still need to work on that focus, focus thing. I've heard somewhere a rifleman persists so I'll see you in Pelham.

 

[Ramblin' Wreck]

It was an EPIC day. Congratulations to the new KD Riflemen and thanks to those stepping up to join the instructor cadre.


Our last KD of the year in Pelham, TN on New Year's Eve is sold out with a waiting list. Hope to see all y'all on the line in April back in Talladega.


Merry Christmas,


Wreck

[Mixed Metaphor]

It was an awesome day!  There was a tremendous amount of experience on the line.  I learned so much!  A huge thank you to Cleveland for shadowing and mentoring me in the afternoon.  Each Appleseed I attend shows me how much more I need to learn and practice.  Persistence.

[ChileRelleno]

Since the ubiquitous SS109/M855 is banned at CMP,  what are the 5.56 people favoring now?
69gr SMKs?

[Maximum Ordinate]

Since the ubiquitous SS109/M855 is banned at CMP,  what are the 5.56 people favoring now?
69gr SMKs?

While quality ammo can give you an edge, earning the KD rocker can be done with a rack grade rifle and surplus ball ammo.  For me, that means surplus Greek HXP or bulk Federal AE .223 from Wal-Mart

I'd hesitate to make a specific recommendation for your rifle, as what mine likes might not be the same as yours.  I'd get a box of 69 and 77 and experiment with your own barrel.  I know a day playing at the range would break your heart.   

[Agrivere]

Since the ubiquitous SS109/M855 is banned at CMP,  what are the 5.56 people favoring now?
69gr SMKs?

As a general rule, and there are exceptions of course, the 69's often group slightly better but the 77's buck the wind significantly better. As wind is a big factor, often the determining factor in hits much past 200 yards, it's extremely rare to find competitive across the course shooters using anything other than 75/77 grain ammo beyond 200 yards.

If you want to load your own all of the various 75/77 grain bullets are very good. Sierra, Nosler, Hornady, Lapua, and Bergers are all commonly used, with the Bergers probably being the most popular as they are very consistent and high quality (though not the cheapest). If you're looking for factory ammo I suggest the factory 75 or 77 grain ammo from Creedmoor sports. It is excellent in quality and reasonably priced. Factory 77 grain ammo from Hornady and Black Hills is also excellent.

[Ramblin' Wreck]

To demonstrate that Scott knows of which he speaks check out his 600 yard taget from the Talladega 600 EIC match earlier this week.


This is screen two of two. That's 19 in the 10 ring and one 9. Eleven of his 10 ring shots were X. 199/200 with 11X. For reference, the X ring at 600 yards is one MOA. Amazing shooting.


.

[ChileRelleno]

Since the ubiquitous SS109/M855 is banned at CMP,  what are the 5.56 people favoring now?
69gr SMKs?

While quality ammo can give you an edge, earning the KD rocker can be done with a rack grade rifle and surplus ball ammo.  For me, that means surplus Greek HXP or bulk Federal AE .223 from Wal-Mart

I'd hesitate to make a specific recommendation for your rifle, as what mine likes might not be the same as yours.  I'd get a box of 69 and 77 and experiment with your own barrel.  I know a day playing at the range would break your heart.   

As a general rule, and there are exceptions of course, the 69's often group slightly better but the 77's buck the wind significantly better. As wind is a big factor, often the determining factor in hits much past 200 yards, it's extremely rare to find competitive across the course shooters using anything other than 75/77 grain ammo beyond 200 yards.

If you want to load your own all of the various 75/77 grain bullets are very good. Sierra, Nosler, Hornady, Lapua, and Bergers are all commonly used, with the Bergers probably being the most popular as they are very consistent and high quality (though not the cheapest). If you're looking for factory ammo I suggest the factory 75 or 77 grain ammo from Creedmoor sports. It is excellent in quality and reasonably priced. Factory 77 grain ammo from Hornady and Black Hills is also excellent.

Thanks for the replies.
I was really just curious what the AR guys at the KD's are shooting since they can't shoot inexpensive 109/855 62gr.
At the KD back in May most of the AR guys had 62gr.

@ Agrivere,
thanks for the quick lesson on what the competition guys are shooting and why.
"Amazing Shooting" indeed, incredible accuracy.

[jmdavis]

With the right twist, 69 will do everything a 55 and a 62 will do generally better.  And a 77 will too. There are people however who will shoot 52 match kings at 200.

[Cleveland]

I qualified with Wolf Gold 55 grain without any trouble.  As long as you follow the 6 steps to firing a shot, you won't have any trouble getting your KD rocker.  If you are going for a perfect score, then ammo becomes more of a factor.

[Roswell]

Sorry, I'm late to the party...

Wow! What a day at the fabulous CMP Marksmanship Park. This is THE benchmark for shooting facilities as far as I am concerned.

I wanted to echo what Cleveland said. I too qualified my first time at the CMP with Federal 55Gr XM193

This time out I had changed my barrel specifically to accommodate the M855 and heavier ammo than I had been using. Not being able to use the M855 I decided to get some 62 gr that was as close as possible to it. This took me down an interesting road.

Enter: Winchester LE Training Ammunition 223 Remington 62 Grain Open Tip



This stuff is great. It was made as Law Enforcement Training ammunition. I'm sure everyone remembers when the .gov commissioned millions of hollow point rounds. Well, they ordered too much and this is the spill over. Again the stuff is bulk so not precision stuff. However, more than accurate enough to qualify with. Also reloadable and the brass is purple (which the ladies love) and easy to find in the grass

For reference here are some of my targets...

Stage 2 at 200 yds



Stage 3 at 300 yds



Stage 4 at 600 yds




Bonus:

Stage 2 video




The Motley crew   

[drifter52]

According to Sierra their 77 gr Match King HPBT requires a twist rate of 1x8" or faster and their 69 gr Match King HPBT requires a twist rate of 1x10" or faster.  So if your barrel is a 1x9" twist 69 gr is the heaviest that will stabilize properly (according to this manufacturer for their bullets - YMMV)

IMI makes a 5.56 69 gr OTM round that shoots well from a 1x9 barrel and is relatively affordable for a factory "match" load.

[Roswell]

According to Sierra their 77 gr Match King HPBT requires a twist rate of 1x8" or faster and their 69 gr Match King HPBT requires a twist rate of 1x10" or faster.  So if your barrel is a 1x9" twist 69 gr is the heaviest that will stabilize properly (according to this manufacturer for their bullets - YMMV)

IMI makes a 5.56 69 gr OTM round that shoots well from a 1x9 barrel and is relatively affordable for a factory "match" load.

Good info!

I think I misspoke. I was already switching barrels to save weight (from 20" to 16" and heavy to ultralight competition) and decided to change twists (1-9 to 1-7) for heavier projectiles like the 62 at the same time. I also went from 5.56 to .223 Wylde.

[Agrivere]

According to Sierra their 77 gr Match King HPBT requires a twist rate of 1x8" or faster and their 69 gr Match King HPBT requires a twist rate of 1x10" or faster.  So if your barrel is a 1x9" twist 69 gr is the heaviest that will stabilize properly (according to this manufacturer for their bullets - YMMV)

IMI makes a 5.56 69 gr OTM round that shoots well from a 1x9 barrel and is relatively affordable for a factory "match" load.

Quite true, and I should have mentioned that. Sierra 77's are unlikely to stabilize properly in a 1:9 twist barrel, however the Hornady 75 usually will, so if you have a 1:9 twist the Hornady 75 is worth trying and if that won't go then the various 69's are a good choice.

[jmdavis]

Quite true, and I should have mentioned that. Sierra 77's are unlikely to stabilize properly in a 1:9 twist barrel, however the Hornady 75 usually will, so if you have a 1:9 twist the Hornady 75 is worth trying and if that won't go then the various 69's are a good choice.

That has been my experience with the 75. It is very accurate out of my 1/9 a Bushmaster from 1992. More so even than the 69.

[Quinncannon]

I shot the KD on 20 July 16, my rifle was a Rock River 1/8 and ammunition was 55 grain American Eagle. The ammunition did fine from 100 to 600 yards. Not the best for 600 certainly, but good enough!

[jmdavis]

I shot the KD on 20 July 16, my rifle was a Rock River 1/8 and ammunition was 55 grain American Eagle. The ammunition did fine from 100 to 600 yards. Not the best for 600 certainly, but good enough!

There are many factors that can limit the effectiveness of a rifleman. Usually the most limiting factor is mental. But equipment plays a role. Some questions. How wide is a D target? What does a D Target represent? How wide is an E target and what does it represent?

On Agrivere's best day at 600 he can shoot a 199 or 200, with the right ammo and a deliberate shooting style on the MR target. The 10 Ring on that target is 2 MOA wide. He is that good. But part of the reason he is that good is that he doesn't take things for granted. He knows that his rifle is accurate and ready to go, that his ammo is the best that he can buy or build and that he has a process that WORKS.

There is nothing wrong with shooting M193 or other commercial or milsurp ammo. Nothing wrong. But how well can it perform?

I recently tested my hand loads side by side with Black a Hills 77 grain Match at 200 and 600 yards. My hand loads cost $.27 cents with my existing brass, 77 gr Sierras, TAC powder and a Remington 7.5 primer. The Black Hills I was shooting currently sell for $49/50. The hand loads held 1 MOA shot prone with sling at 200, 300 and 600 yards on paper and at 385 and 500 on steel. The Black Hills was almost the same. Traditionally the best I can do at 500 was 2-3 MOA with 62 M855 at 200-500 and 2.5-4 MOA with M193.

An MR target has a bull that is 36 inches in diameter. That is 6 MOA. All of the bulls for Highpower range between 6.5 and 6 MOA. But where do you think the good shooters are trying to put their rounds? On the paper? In the black? Or in the 2 MOA 10 ring or the 1 MOA X ring?

[Quinncannon]

I was merely pointing out that the ammo was good enough for me, nothing else was implied.

[Maximum Ordinate]

I was merely pointing out that the ammo was good enough for me, nothing else was implied.

Thanks for your input, brother.  My signature line says it all.