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More thoughts on Practice

Started by jmdavis, August 04, 2016, 03:52:09 PM

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jmdavis

How many of you watched this video?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfARgCqWCvQ

What did you learn?


How many of you did nothing or the same things and got the same results as before?

NOTHING will change until you change and talk isn't change. So stop THINKING and talking and start THINKING and DOING!



Keith Sanderson is a Triple Distinguished (Rifle, Pistol, International), Olympian, member of the USAR shooting team, and former member of the USMC Weapons Training Battalion Pistol Team. Look for him in Rio in this Olympics.


"If a man does his best, what else is there?"  - General George S. Patton Jr

  ...We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
  For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
  Shall be my brother...-Shakespeare, Henry V
 

"There's a great deal of talk about loyalty from the bottom to the top. Loyalty from the top down is even more necessary and is much less prevalent. One of the most frequently noted characteristics of great men who have remained great is loyalty to their subordinates."
- General George S. Patton, Jr

"Your body can't go where your mind hasn't been."
- Alex Arrieta 1995 NTI Winner

Valongrifle

What I have to say is not intended to be controversial, argumentative, etc.  Simply the comments of someone with a long way to go to become a 'marksman.'

I watched the video of the use of dry fire practice (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfARgCqWCvQ).  I agree in regards to the value of dry firing, and will comment on my use of it - but first:  A 100 rounds of dry fires per live fire is a bit daunting for a beginner.  SFC Sanderson enjoys an advantage in that the firing range is his life thus he can devote a lot of time each day.

My challenge is to do better than 1.5" x 1.5" groupings at 25 Meters - don't laugh; I know I am a poor shot.  I use a Savage Mark II, which will 'cock' by simply moving the bolt handle up and down.  So I can dry fire on a drywall anchor over and over without ejection.

The following is what I have been through so far:
- I began focus on dry fire practice by firing 10 dry fires, rest, 10 dry fires, rest, and then 10 live rounds. (Lousy results)
- Next I went to 20 dry fires, rest, 20 dry fires, rest, 10 dry fires, eject the anchor, fire 10 live rounds (Perhaps an improvement)
- Next I went to 20 dry fires, rest, 20 dry fires, rest, 20 dry fires, rest, 10 dry fires, eject the anchor, 10 live rounds. (Most rounds inside a 1" x 1" square.
- Presently I am doing 20 dry fires, rest, 20 dry fires, rest, 20 dry fires, rest, 20 dry fires, rest, 10 dry fires, eject the anchor, 10 live rounds. (Seem to be consistently placing 8 - 9 of the 10 live rounds inside the 1" x 1" black square.  The other 1 - 2 round are just outside the square.


- My goal is to go to a total of 130 dry fires, in groups of 20 with a rest between each group followed by 10 dry fires, eject the anchor and 10 live rounds.
- I will repeat this until I consistently get all 10 live rounds in the 1" x 1" square.
- Perhaps then I will have the patience to fire 210 dry fires before 10 live rounds with the ambition of eventual groupings within 0.75" to 0.5" diameter circles.  (Ambitious, perhaps naive, fellow am I.)


In addition to these details:
I am focusing on
- Body and arm positioning that enables keeping the sights on the 1" x 1" target even with my eyes closed.
- Steadiness of the sighting (no waver)
- Sights remaining on the 1" x 1" after each dry fire 

This is not advice to anyone because I am a novice - it is simply to say I "feel share your pain" when it comes to improving the tightness of groups.  It is a long, hard road that takes a lot of patience - and dry firing.

Kennebago

Live fire should serve only to validate what you are doing in dryfire in a ideal world, yes. Strange concept for a lot of people starting out, I think.

100:1 sounds about right for someone at a high level of competition. Dryfiring daily will push the dry:live ratio higher than people realize, especially for average joes who shoot once a week or less.

Gunhandling is not discussed at all, which is important to note in a presentation about handguns. Pursuing pure marksmanship is good but for a CCW holder, which the average shooter is much more likely to be than an Olympic ruleset competitor, being able to draw and fire quickly/safely with acceptable accuracy is probably more important than making the smallest possible groups. Gunhandling needs to be addressed too, and with equally aggressive self-criticism. "Acceptable accuracy" is a terribly vague term, but for example I would prefer being able to draw my carry weapon from concealment shoot a passable group at 25 yards in a smooth hurry than be a more impressive marksman with a bad, slow drawstroke. Handgun dryfire must be done from a holster, or at least from the pressout in my amateur opinion. Especially with DA/SA triggers.

Stoeger/Anderson/Enos are what I have found useful for handgun dryfire instruction.
Wodan bood Mimir zijn oog
doch zou hij beter zien

jmdavis

If you can't hit the target starting with the pistol in your hand and 10 or 20 seconds, what chance do you have to draw from concealment and hit the target. Crawl, walk, run. The same person that taught me point fire and drawing from concealment, a retired police firearms instructor, taught me precision. You can never miss fast enough. And I sure wouldn't want to get into a gunfight with Keith Sanderson, because he WILL NOT miss. In my opinion, once you can shoot accurately one handed under time pressure you are in much better shape.

The best tactical shooters are precision shooters. Learn to shoot accurately then add the draw. It works. And dry firing helps you learn to shoot accurately.



Now VAlongrifle, if you go to the  "Dryfire and the Rifleman" topic you will see some suggestions that I made about how much a starting shooter should expect to dry fire. You need to do some blank wall dry fire and you need to learn your trigger. More importantly you need to be critical in your process as you go through the dry fire exercises. But learning to shoot is a process. It won't happen in a day or two. It is a commitment. Are you committed?

" If you are shooting standing dryfire as many quality shots as you can. At first you may not be able to make 10 quality shots, but as you continue with blank wall and target dryfire you soon will. "

http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=48867.0

"If a man does his best, what else is there?"  - General George S. Patton Jr

  ...We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
  For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
  Shall be my brother...-Shakespeare, Henry V
 

"There's a great deal of talk about loyalty from the bottom to the top. Loyalty from the top down is even more necessary and is much less prevalent. One of the most frequently noted characteristics of great men who have remained great is loyalty to their subordinates."
- General George S. Patton, Jr

"Your body can't go where your mind hasn't been."
- Alex Arrieta 1995 NTI Winner

jmdavis

VAlongrifle,

Are you dry firing standing, sitting or prone?
"If a man does his best, what else is there?"  - General George S. Patton Jr

  ...We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
  For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
  Shall be my brother...-Shakespeare, Henry V
 

"There's a great deal of talk about loyalty from the bottom to the top. Loyalty from the top down is even more necessary and is much less prevalent. One of the most frequently noted characteristics of great men who have remained great is loyalty to their subordinates."
- General George S. Patton, Jr

"Your body can't go where your mind hasn't been."
- Alex Arrieta 1995 NTI Winner

Kennebago

Quote from: jmdavis on August 25, 2016, 03:08:55 PM
If you can't hit the target starting with the pistol in your hand and 10 or 20 seconds, what chance do you have to draw from concealment and hit the target.

The best tactical shooters are precision shooters.

If you can't shoot passably well at 7-10 yards then obviously yes, accuracy work is required. But shooting a good-enough fist-sized group is not really precision shooting. It is, however, enough to defend yourself with...after you draw your weapon.

I do not think accuracy and gunhandling ability are separate things, or should perhaps say they are the same coin and should be treated that way because of how handguns are most often employed (i.e. from holsters). ISSF pistol is one discipline of many, and ignores portions of the coin that an average citizen must understand if they are carrying concealed.

TL;DR - I think beyond rudimentary competence you need to develop both areas, unless the game you are playing dictates otherwise.
Wodan bood Mimir zijn oog
doch zou hij beter zien

Luminous Rabbit

Quote from: Kennebago on August 25, 2016, 04:11:35 PM

If you can't shoot passably well at 7-10 yards then obviously yes, accuracy work is required. But shooting a good-enough fist-sized group is not really precision shooting. It is, however, enough to defend yourself with...after you draw your weapon.


Agreed - if you look at statistics collected on defensive shootings, they are typically at short distances.  There are some people that have problems with <10y pistol accuracy, but a lot of people are acceptably good right out of the gate.  Then the issue is getting on target from the holster, weapon retention (this doesn't get stressed enough), and dealing with the various real-world complications that turn defensive shots into misses: extreme stress, darkness, barriers, moving targets, vehicles involved, bystanders etc.

jmdavis

Two nights ago, I was counting the strikes on range walls at 10 yards and out, as well as the strikes on ceiling tiles of a private range, I would say that its more than a few that have a problem hitting the target.

Admittedly, my target of choice is a 6 inch circle at 25 yards. But what do you think happens when I transition to shooting a B target or  USPSA target in a CCW or tactical class? The answer is that I hit my target with precisely placed groups where I want them. But when people have trouble hitting a target at 10 yards without hitting the wall at 11 or 12 yards, they need to spend more time (much more time) on precision and less worrying about how fast they draw and fire. YOU CANNOT MISS FAST ENOUGH.

My rifle target of choice is an SR, SR3 or MR. What do you think happens when I shoot Larue or 3 gun steel with my carbine? Learn to be accurate and then speed up. It works and has worked for years and years. On the other hand learning to be fast and then trying to become accurate means that you have to unlearn bad habits in order to improve.

It's up to you.



"If a man does his best, what else is there?"  - General George S. Patton Jr

  ...We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
  For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
  Shall be my brother...-Shakespeare, Henry V
 

"There's a great deal of talk about loyalty from the bottom to the top. Loyalty from the top down is even more necessary and is much less prevalent. One of the most frequently noted characteristics of great men who have remained great is loyalty to their subordinates."
- General George S. Patton, Jr

"Your body can't go where your mind hasn't been."
- Alex Arrieta 1995 NTI Winner

Kennebago

Quote from: Luminous Rabbit on August 26, 2016, 02:22:23 PM
Quote from: Kennebago on August 25, 2016, 04:11:35 PM

If you can't shoot passably well at 7-10 yards then obviously yes, accuracy work is required. But shooting a good-enough fist-sized group is not really precision shooting. It is, however, enough to defend yourself with...after you draw your weapon.


Agreed - if you look at statistics collected on defensive shootings, they are typically at short distances.  There are some people that have problems with <10y pistol accuracy, but a lot of people are acceptably good right out of the gate.  Then the issue is getting on target from the holster, weapon retention (this doesn't get stressed enough), and dealing with the various real-world complications that turn defensive shots into misses: extreme stress, darkness, barriers, moving targets, vehicles involved, bystanders etc.

I find that I get much more out of dryfire sessions with a holster, and this is magnified with my Beretta 92 over my Glocks. I am not terribly fast, but my focus improves and I roll through the DA trigger much more smoothly when my hindbrain takes over at the beginning of my drawstroke, locks my attention in, and drives the shot. If I am simply pointing a gun at a doorknob or something and working the trigger only it is much harder to "just shoot", especially DA. I find this to be poor return on the invested time.

It is also an opportunity to pound decock-reholster into my brain, as skipping that first step is not a good life choice.
Wodan bood Mimir zijn oog
doch zou hij beter zien

jmdavis

Dry fire doesn't  have to be done  aiming at something. To learn the trigger and work on grip one of the best methods is to dryfire at a blank wall. Mastery is a process. One is seldom able to short cut that process. For the record that is the advice of a National Champion to me this year.  We modified my prone position and process the night before the National Individual Trophy match. I shot a personal best for that match the next day. I continued to work on the position and process via dry fire and it is getting better.

Practicing the parts of a complicated process helps us improve even when we can already do the process. Good luck.
"If a man does his best, what else is there?"  - General George S. Patton Jr

  ...We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
  For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
  Shall be my brother...-Shakespeare, Henry V
 

"There's a great deal of talk about loyalty from the bottom to the top. Loyalty from the top down is even more necessary and is much less prevalent. One of the most frequently noted characteristics of great men who have remained great is loyalty to their subordinates."
- General George S. Patton, Jr

"Your body can't go where your mind hasn't been."
- Alex Arrieta 1995 NTI Winner

Valongrifle

Mr. Davis,

I am not able to get back to the site on a frequent basis.  So my apologies.

At present I am prone.  I have my grouping down to a little less than 1" x 1".  I am dry firing and live firing at a white target that has a black 1" x 1" square.  There is no doubt that dry firing improves live firing.  I focus on arms and body position, closing my eyes when on target and then opening them to see if I am still on target, holding position after firing, and all the other details, using the instructions that may be found at:  https://1022companion.wordpress.com/2016/01/10/fine-points-of-the-prone-position/

When I have reached my goal for the prone position then I'll move on to the sitting and standing, using dry firing.  I suppose I could be called 'impatient' but at present 90 dry fires before firing 10 live rounds is where I am at..  As i said - I will eventually get to 150 dry fires for 10 live rounds. My time is limited, and doing this every day is an ambition, but realistically every other day is reality, because of other things in life, is about what I achieve.

I find my state of rest is as important as anything, perhaps more so than anything else (sleep, rest, distractions in life, stress from my other activities, etc.



jmdavis

#11
3 or 4 days a week is fine. But you don't need to live fire or be at the range to get the benefit of dry fire.

I would also start working standing and sitting in now. While it is true that 1/2 of an AQT is shot on your Belly, 1/4 is shot standing. Standing is the hardest position for most people to master. So get started. The AQT is a big standing target and it can be shot clean.


"If a man does his best, what else is there?"  - General George S. Patton Jr

  ...We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
  For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
  Shall be my brother...-Shakespeare, Henry V
 

"There's a great deal of talk about loyalty from the bottom to the top. Loyalty from the top down is even more necessary and is much less prevalent. One of the most frequently noted characteristics of great men who have remained great is loyalty to their subordinates."
- General George S. Patton, Jr

"Your body can't go where your mind hasn't been."
- Alex Arrieta 1995 NTI Winner

VAshooter

VaLongrifle, Kennebago, et al...

Dry firing is everything  Mr. Sanderson say's it is but it's more than pressing the trigger while pointed at a wall.

Dry firing can be used to train for whatever skill  you need to develop. If you want to learn to draw better you can draw in slow motion , being careful to preform the draw perfectly, 100 times. First start with positioning your hand on the grip exactly as you want it and then progress to drawing from the holster and eventually learning to push out. It allows you to practice without wasting ammo and without driving to the range.

Gun handling and safety? Yes, practice them too.

Many years ago a rifle shooter who wanted to compete in the Olympics was transferred to a job where there was no range to practice. He had a full time day job but when he got home at night he would go into the spare bedroom, put on all his shooting gear and dry fire the complete Olympic match while laying in position in the bedroom. In his mind he would visualize each shot and he would visualize winning the match and winning the Gold Medal. He performed this drill every day because he wanted it that bad.

He eventually did get to the Olympics and won the Gold even though he was not able to practice much before going.

You cannot accomplish something unless you have already perfected it in your mind. Your mind does not know the difference between thinking of doing something and actually doing it.  This is true for good shots as well as bad ones.

Valongrifle

Given the lack of recent activity on this forum subject the attachment I have provided may not reach anyone.  Keep in mind that I am a newcomer and here I am only relating what seems to be working for me.  I am comfortable if you do not like some or all of the content.  Not to be difficult, but I do not have time to debate the content.  But if the reader has opinions, ideas, etc that work for them I would enjoy reading, and learning from, a similar paper they would take time to write.