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Kingman, Az Known Distance Appleseed Feb 6-7, 2016 After Action Report

Started by pennys dad, February 08, 2016, 11:38:50 PM

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pennys dad

Kingman, Az Known Distance Appleseed Feb 6-7, 2016 After Action Report

Sorry for the slowness but the Second never rests and there is always work to do.

We had a great weekend. We had sun, cold and 10 to 20 mph steady wind with gust of 30 mph, the wind was a great teaching tool.
How many know what the hold in is for a 20 mph wind at 400m coming in from 3 o'clock?
We scored two KD riflemen Brian and Seth.

Brian


Seth


Great job guys. Brian immediately jumped in and started spotting for other students, that how we got Seth. I was watching the students shoot and started wondering if I would have enough "long range" rockers.











This rifle had a 470m BSZ






Hi Gary



Down range repairing targets


The whole team and my shadow :-)



More to come and video

CactusTheLuckyBushwacker

Thank you Jacob and David for everything this past weekend.  I think we all had a blast--I know I did!

Odd as it may sound, I think I benefited from running a rig that was an "unknown quantity".  There was no rule-of-thumb for come-ups for 120gr 6.5mm Grendel.  This forced me (with Brian's generous help as spotter) to spend Sunday morning figuring out exactly what my come-ups were for 100m, 200m, 300m, and 400m by actually shooting at those distances.  Once those were solidly established I could focus on shooting the AQT instead of wondering if my elevation was correct.

I'm looking forward to my next KD!



pennys dad

Quote from: CactusTheLuckyBushwacker on February 09, 2016, 03:07:22 PM
Thank you Jacob and David for everything this past weekend.  I think we all had a blast--I know I did!

Odd as it may sound, I think I benefited from running a rig that was an "unknown quantity".  There was no rule-of-thumb for come-ups for 120gr 6.5mm Grendel.  This forced me (with Brian's generous help as spotter) to spend Sunday morning figuring out exactly what my come-ups were for 100m, 200m, 300m, and 400m by actually shooting at those distances.  Once those were solidly established I could focus on shooting the AQT instead of wondering if my elevation was correct.

I'm looking forward to my next KD!


Seth, good to meet you and see you there.

pennys dad


Rocket Man

Quote from: pennys dad on February 08, 2016, 11:38:50 PMHow many know what the hold in is for a 20 mph wind at 400m coming in from 3 o'clock?

I do I do I do!  Pick me! 

Quote from: CactusTheLuckyBushwacker on February 09, 2016, 03:07:22 PM
Odd as it may sound, I think I benefited from running a rig that was an "unknown quantity".  There was no rule-of-thumb for come-ups for 120gr 6.5mm Grendel.  This forced me (with Brian's generous help as spotter) to spend Sunday morning figuring out exactly what my come-ups were for 100m, 200m, 300m, and 400m by actually shooting at those distances.  Once those were solidly established I could focus on shooting the AQT instead of wondering if my elevation was correct.

So what did you find?  And how close was it to the "Rifleman's Comeups?"

Good to compare our quick rules of thumb to hard data...  but always trust your data.

Also:  Holy height over bore, Batman!  ;D

Great shoot!!
My guesses: 

Rule of thumb for wind:  3 o'clock is full value, 1 MOA per 10 MPH per 100 meters for .30 cal => 8 MOA at 400 meters, either dial it in or hold 1 1/2 target widths off the edge
For .223, use 1.5 MOA per 10 MPH per 100 meters => 12 MOA, dial it in or hold 2 1/2 target widths off the edge

ETA:  Comparing to Winchester Ballistic Calculator:  147 gr FMJ 30'06, 450 yards, 20 mph crosswind = 31.9" deflection = 7.98 MOA, so rule of thumb is dead on.  55 gr FMJ .223, 450 yards, 20 mph crosswind = 54.1" deflection = 13.5 MOA, so rule of thumb is close but about 13% too optimistic.  Yow.

For 6.5 Grendel 120 gr, guessing your comeups are +2, +2, +3, +3.  I get +2, +2, +2, +3 with my .270 130 gr TSX, using that as a model.
... if ever a mistaken complaisance leads them to sacrifice their privileges, or the well-meaning assertors of them, they will deserve bondage, and soon will find themselves in chains. -- Joseph Warren (anon)

crobjones2

Thank you Jacob and David for a great event

It was great to see several familiar faces and great to meet a couple more like minded individuals
Congratulations to Bryan and Seth!! O0

I am looking forward to venturing out east again in October, again with the challenge, but armed with new information.
Last time I was successful using hold overs and shooting BSZ, this time trying to use scope adjustments, not so much

the rule of thumb, and Rifleman comeups go out the window when the scope to bore height is greatly increased. This was a learning experience for many as we calculated my second zero crossing to be about 500yds ( 308 175rg FMJBT)

Libertarian777

What an outrageously fun weekend! Fantastic instruction, great shooters, nice windy conditions. I'm still trying to diagnose why I shot so poorly on the second day, so I guess I will just have to come back. Darn. Really loved the Quick-n-dirty AQTs and the irons out at 500 yards, among everything else.

pennys dad

Quote from: Libertarian777 on February 10, 2016, 03:25:04 PM
What an outrageously fun weekend! Fantastic instruction, great shooters, nice windy conditions. I'm still trying to diagnose why I shot so poorly on the second day, so I guess I will just have to come back. Darn. Really loved the Quick-n-dirty AQTs and the irons out at 500 yards, among everything else.


Loved the rifle, I am glad you came out

CactusTheLuckyBushwacker

Quote from: Rocket Man on February 10, 2016, 01:41:46 AM
So what did you find?  And how close was it to the "Rifleman's Comeups?"

Good to compare our quick rules of thumb to hard data...  but always trust your data.

For 6.5 Grendel 120 gr, guessing your comeups are +2, +2, +3, +3.  I get +2, +2, +2, +3 with my .270 130 gr TSX, using that as a model.[/color]

Sorry for the delayed response...life took over for a week!

With a 25-yd zero, my holds were at -5, -2, +2, and +4.  This left us scratching our heads but the targets don't lie.

Bryan and I both suspect I'm getting below the advertised velocity out of the Prvi Partizan PPU 120gr. ammo I was shooting.  I've since read elsewhere that some folks were seeing serious overpressure issues with this ammo, and I'm speculating that the batch I'm shooting is exactly the opposite.  The only way to know for sure is to invest in a chrony, which is next on my list.  In the meantime I'll stick with Hornady's load.

Rocket Man

Quote from: CactusTheLuckyBushwacker on February 16, 2016, 12:19:09 PMWith a 25-yd zero, my holds were at -5, -2, +2, and +4.  This left us scratching our heads but the targets don't lie.

Numbers aren't adding up for me.  Are you giving corrections all relative to your 25 meter zero, instead of additive like the Rifleman's Comeups?  Your preferred zero is irrelevant to those numbers.

"3, 3, 3, 4" means, if you're at your 100 meter zero, you add 3 MOA to get your 200 meter zero, add another 3 MOA to get the 300 meter zero, add 3 more to get your 400 meter zero, then add 4 more to get your 500 meter zero.  So from your 100 meter zero, you add 3 + 3 + 3 + 4 = 13 MOA to get directly to 500 meters.

If we use that convention, your "-5, -2, 2, 4" means that from your 100 meter zero, you subtract 5 MOA to get 200 meters, subtract 2 more (total -7) to get to 300 meter zero, then add back 2 (total -5) to get to 400 meters, then add four (net -1) to get to 500 meters.  Meaning your 100 meter and 500 meter zero are basically the same.  You have a 600 meter BSZ with a maximum rise of roughly 24". 

Problem is that I cannot replicate this on a ballistic calculator.  Using the Winchester calculator again, a reference load of 140 gr 6.5 Cr FMJ / Match, the calculator maxes out at 3 inches of sight height over bore, and that produces a maximum rise of only 11.3 inches (5.5 MOA) at 225 yards.  Your 120 gr ammunition should be a bit faster than this reference load, but no way is it going to climb all the way to 350 meters -- unless it averages about 20% faster.

Quote from: CactusTheLuckyBushwacker on February 16, 2016, 12:19:09 PMBryan and I both suspect I'm getting below the advertised velocity out of the Prvi Partizan PPU 120gr. ammo I was shooting.  I've since read elsewhere that some folks were seeing serious overpressure issues with this ammo, and I'm speculating that the batch I'm shooting is exactly the opposite.  The only way to know for sure is to invest in a chrony, which is next on my list.  In the meantime I'll stick with Hornady's load.

Based on your runout compared to this example, I think your ammo is significantly overperforming the 140 gr reference load in terms of velocity.  I don't have a 6.5 but I have shot a lot of Prvi, and it tends to run near the top of its pressure range.  The chrony may tell you something interesting.   ^-^  Don't blow anything up.
... if ever a mistaken complaisance leads them to sacrifice their privileges, or the well-meaning assertors of them, they will deserve bondage, and soon will find themselves in chains. -- Joseph Warren (anon)

CactusTheLuckyBushwacker

Those are corrections relative to my 25-yard zero, which is what we established during Saturday morning.  I used the 25-yard zero for the remainder of the weekend:

Hold at -5 for 100yds
Hold at -2 for 200yds
Hold at +2 for 300yds
Hold at +4 for 400yds

Using the convention you indicated, my Rifleman's Come-ups would be: -5, +3, +4, +2.  Since I think in terms of bullet drop and not in terms of progressive come-ups, it made more sense for me to record my data relative to my zero.  During the AQT, this allowed me to just glance at my book, read the hold required for the distance I was shooting at, and concentrate on fundamentals.  Having to do ANY calculations would've put me over the time limit.  :)

Your comment about velocity is interesting - Bryan and I both looked at my empties and saw no signs of over-pressure.  Regardless, as I said I'll be shooting Hornady until I can get my hands on a chrony to confirm the PPU's velocity.

Rocket Man

Quote from: CactusTheLuckyBushwacker on February 17, 2016, 12:48:39 PMUsing the convention you indicated, my Rifleman's Come-ups would be: [strike]-5,[/strike] +3, +4, +2.  Since I think in terms of bullet drop and not in terms of progressive come-ups, it made more sense for me to record my data relative to my zero.  During the AQT, this allowed me to just glance at my book, read the hold required for the distance I was shooting at, and concentrate on fundamentals.  Having to do ANY calculations would've put me over the time limit.  :)

So that makes more sense.  3, 4, 2 is probably 3, 3, 3 with a more carefully calibrated range, and that is the Rifleman's Comeups.  Really slow ammo is about the only thing that departs radically from that rule of thumb.  It's pretty insensitive to height over bore... unless you get way up there, so that the small angle approximation no longer holds...

This also implies, for your 25 meter zero, a second crossing at about 285 meters.  That's reasonable.  Exactly what that means for velocity depends strongly on your height over bore... so I can't tell much about velocity.  But given that you're not exceeding the Rifleman's Comeups, you're probably in the 2700 FPS ballpark.  A little light for the load, but then you probably aren't using a 28 inch barrel either.

Moral of the story, never pass up a chance to get real data.   O0
... if ever a mistaken complaisance leads them to sacrifice their privileges, or the well-meaning assertors of them, they will deserve bondage, and soon will find themselves in chains. -- Joseph Warren (anon)