To shift, or not to shift that is the question

[Engineer shooting]

See attached photo for the best visual example of having your NPOA on the first target then muscling the muzzle to the other targets.

[Mark Davis]

That target illustrates much.
The group opening up as more muscle was applied.
The groups being pulled down with more body strain.
It even looks like the shooter could see the results of 2nd and third group and relaxed more on the last group.

[jmdavis]

I don't want to burst any bubbles. But I have watched a good shooter and AS instructor NOT shift his NPOA, muscle the gun and shoot at 247  (98 on stage 4) and reliably over the course of an RBC shoot 230+. These are pretty big targets for good shooters and if you have a zeroed rifle, good trigger control and sight alignment you can shoot a Rifleman score. That said, a good Natural Point of Aim will make shooting well easier.

[PHenry]

NPOA and shifting are nearly irrelevant with a 22, but with a real rifle - everything changes. First round out of most .30 cal rifles will find your NPOA and by third shot you will be working hard to get back on and stay on target. With five minutes - I see zero reason to not shift.

[Mark Davis]

The guy who shot that target has a ways to go before, becoming the shooter either of describe.

[Engineer shooting]

Shooter was active duty military getting ready to qualify and deploy, he showed great improvement and it was my honor to help. 

NPOA and shifting are nearly irrelevant with a 22, but with a real rifle - everything changes. First round out of most .30 cal rifles will find your NPOA and by third shot you will be working hard to get back on and stay on target. With five minutes - I see zero reason to not shift.

[Kosciusko]

Shooter was active duty military getting ready to qualify and deploy, he showed great improvement and it was my honor to help. 

Following the principle of    "not letting the perfect become the enemy of the good",   I'd say you did the right thing.    What you did may make  the difference in him coming back from deployment.    At that time, you can work on his NPOA shift.

[PHenry]

For thems not acquainted with EngineerShooting who is far too modest to say, he is one of the best I have ever seen at producing Rifleman. At his first RBC, he scored 100%. I forget the exact number of students - maybe a dozen. All made score and all took a hat. His entire family are red hats and work the trail together. They purchased property out of town to build a DAR and when no funding could be provided, dug even deeper into their pockets and made it happen. I could not count the number of times they driven five hours to help me, or called and offered same because they saw on the roster that I was long on students / short on instructors.

I am prouder than a game rooster to have rid with them - peaches they are, every one of them and I'll nevr say diffrnt. 

[Agrivere]

NPOA and shifting are nearly irrelevant with a 22, but with a real rifle - everything changes. First round out of most .30 cal rifles will find your NPOA and by third shot you will be working hard to get back on and stay on target. With five minutes - I see zero reason to not shift.

It's rare that I would disagree with you PHenry but in my experience the opposite is true. With a center fire rifle the lock time is fast enough that you can get away with poor NPA if your sight alignment and trigger control are good, because the bullet will be out of the barrel before you really relax to your NPA. What you are interpreting as an NPA shift with the 30 cal rifle is really the rifle simply MOVING you around and breaking down your position. Especially noticeable with little guys like us. Nothing will teach you how to really solidify your position better than a 30 cal wood gun, as it will punish the smallest position errors.

A rimfire, on the other hand, will let you get away with lots of position errors but will punish NPA errors. The time before the bullet exits the barrel is vastly slower, and your body will want to relax to your NPA as soon as the trigger breaks. When I feel like I broke a shot perfectly and it comes up wide it's virtually always because my NPA is off, and my body relaxed to NPA before the bullet could leave the barrel.

These two things - solid position and good NPA - are certainly related, and the errors look similar on the target, but the source of the problem can be very different. A good shooter can get away with many NPA errors with a centerfire rifle that you simply can't do with a rimfire. On the other side, you can get away with a pretty sloppy position with a rimfire rifle that the 30 cal rifles will punish you for.

[PHenry]

Common Agrivere - don't be modest - you disagree with me plenty of the time. 

If it were up to me, there would be a separate patch for 22 vs. CF. I know that's likely to ruffle some feathers, but they are night and day. I purchased two loaners and zeroed them, then never shot them again for years. One day whilst on a camping trip that afforded that all too rare live fire, for some reason I drug one of them out and shot a green coat (AKA "Zombie), with the scoring rings. I was mortified. It was so easy in comparison to a CF rifle and here I had handed patches out to dozens and dozens of 22 shooters.

To each their own sir. I see a 22 as a stepping stone to a real rifle - nothing more. They are cheap to run and offer a chance to learn most of what a Rifleman needs to know about taking the shot, but not all. If a shooter sticks with a 22 too long, practice makes permanent and when and if the do move onto a CF rifle - loads of bad habits to overcome.

Lord knows you spend a lot more time behind a rifle than I do these days. 

[Cable___Guy]

I would say the correct answer is for you both Sign up for the RBC in January.  We can all prove one theory or another on the range. And then spend all night around a campfire debating it till we are full and tired.

I see 3 people signed up as students (including myself) and quite a few familiar names signed up as instructors.
Sly223 told me he was in.  This should be a Grand ole time. 
Can we get one of the emojis that fires in Rifleman's Cadence.

[jmdavis]

NPOA and shifting are nearly irrelevant with a 22, but with a real rifle - everything changes. First round out of most .30 cal rifles will find your NPOA and by third shot you will be working hard to get back on and stay on target. With five minutes - I see zero reason to not shift.

I can't argue that there is any reason not to shift NPOA. There isn't. But I know what I saw and spoke with the shooter about it afterward. He admitted that he was muscling the gun. That was the Feb 2010 Ramseur RBC. Some good people were at that shoot.

What I will say is that I have never seen a 100 shot on stage 4 without good NPOA for each target. Heck, even then it's easy enough to shoot a 4 somewhere.

I'm torn on the 22 vs. CF thing. I have found that I shoot about the same with either and with about the same effort. So I can't argue either side.

But in the end, if you do it right (NPA that is) you will find it easier to shoot well than if you don't.

Mike

[Mark Davis]

PHenry,
True a .22 is a stepping stone to a more powerful rifle.
But there are so many stepping stones along the way.
I am thankful for the shooters who rarely step off the rimfire, to shoot centerfire, but focus on helping others to come along the path.

[Burnett]

Wow, I really misread the title of this thread.
Was maybe worried with what I might find when I opened it.

[George63]

That was the Feb 2010 Ramseur RBC.

not me - at the time I was not as guilty as now, besides I stayed on the left side and you were mostly on the right side of the line

since then I have been to quite a few RBC/ other KD events around the country, looking back it was a "low hanging fruit" event for quality of shooters

as far as shifting - my current AQT challenge is a very light .308 bolt hunting type rifle, to get off most of the shots in stage 2+3 any npoa has to occur before standing up - after the fire command there is no time for anything but drop, load, run the bolt and fire with every shot pushing the body around so muscling is inevitable - but like others have said, the targets (until stage 4) are quite large

while we teach some npoa for every stage/ position, only on stage 4 does it become the crux of the exercise - since we judge results by the AQT score, the crux becomes what most effectively raises the score (whether or not that makes the best skills)

to me the crux of stage one is each individual building a position that allows sufficient control of the rifle - tough or impossible for slight builds/ heavy rifles ( obviously, with true relaxation the rifle will be pointed at the ground and the shooter would soon follow)

the crux of stage 2/3 is quickly obtaining a reasonable position, then knowing and manipulating your rifle ( speed without sacrificing safety) - when I call the line, I track the elapsed  time to the first shot - 20 seconds is average, with many individuals taking over 30, they have fallen into an NPOA trap - giving little chance of a good score
IMO,  NPOA  is an obstacle for getting the score to 210  for stage 2/3 - if you get to the point of wanting to score  240+ with a tuned rimfire or AR - then npoa will come into play for all stages

[JoeZ]

NPOA and shifting are nearly irrelevant with a 22, but with a real rifle - everything changes. First round out of most .30 cal rifles will find your NPOA and by third shot you will be working hard to get back on and stay on target. With five minutes - I see zero reason to not shift.

I agree here with PHenry and go farther and say you can even take more than one shot with each breath with a 22. I think what the dissenting folks replying here are seeing is experienced shooters snapping into position darn close to NPOA already. The repetitions have trained the body to subconsciously "know" where to be and so very little to no conscious effort is required. That is why George (and I'm sure most here will agree with him) those stage 2 and 3 targets are big. The rookie is so far off on his initial snap in that NPOA identification and correction is critical, to him those targets are tiny.

JoeZ

[PHenry]

Agree with JoeZ. I always teach (as I was taught even at my first event in 01/07) "building the nest" - take note of the position of pivot point, lay mags where trigger hand drops - oriented and in numbered order. Harp on them to get first round down range in 15 seconds, etc.

I made score at first and second event with two saved rounds on stage two. Couldn't make score consistently until I began instructing - hammering it into others, hammered into me. I came in during the "low hanging fruit" G63 speaks of - virtually all hairy-legged men shooting .30 cal rifles. ARs were despised and ridiculed and hard to find a 22 on the line. We pressed for a wider demographic and we got it, which is great, but I'd be lyin if I said I didn't miss those old days.

My first 22-only event was at Myakka Fl years ago. I had failed to even notice the lack of any CF rifles. During Ball and Dummy, I looked around and thought - what's wrong with this picture? How's anyone gonna flinch with nothing but 22s going off? I ran to truck and retrieved a 16" .30 with truly obnoxious muzzle break. Let ten rounds go on short breathe cycle. Perfectly circumspect woman near me declared at the top of her lungs - "This is bleeping bleep!" no ma'am - this is flinch, buck, jerk and blink" 

Standard procedure now if all 22s on line, I make sure an instructor fires a CF during each pairing to at least simulate some percussion and noise.

Let them shoot 22s, but teach them to shoot CF rifles, required to maintain the Rifleman's traditional quarter mile.  Make them understand the difference. My dear mother is 84 and maybe 5' tall. she shoots an AR. Still working on the NPOA shifting.

[George63]

My dear mother is 84 and maybe 5' tall. she shoots an AR. Still working on the NPOA shifting.

well, you get her to the RBC and I might have to come down - get her to shoot the score at distance and the rifleman's 1/4 mile even if it takes a whole extra week (you know it has happened before)

if I do come down I am set to be able to supply the whole RBC with CF ammo - even  a retro "no rimfire event"

[PHenry]

G63,
Mighty generous offer sir, but while mom can shoot, she's not up to the rigors of an RBC. I'm headed to OR for an IBC in late Feb., but hoping to get a KD in at the IDMR soon.
PH

[jmdavis]

No George, it wasn't you. But the shooter wasn't on the right side either. If you think about it you will figure it out. I hope you are well.

[jmdavis]

Well I will have to respectfully disagree with the idea of trying to make people flinch. In my experience, once someone gets comfortable enough with the 22 to shoot it well. It becomes easier to get them shooting the center fire well. And I don't care what caliber they choose for cf. I have shot kd quals, with m1s, AR10s, AR15s and bolt guns. Caliber is irrelevant if you apply a good position, sight alignment and trigger control.

Now I am off to go practice high power before having range duty this afternoon.

[henschman]

I think something like the old days of lines of all center fires may be returning -- just probably not with .30 cals. Our last shoot in Stillwater, OK was all AR-15s. 

[PHenry]

Our last shoot in Stillwater, OK was all AR-15s.

[ItsanSKS]

when I call the line, I track the elapsed  time to the first shot - 20 seconds is average, with many individuals taking over 30, they have fallen into an NPOA trap

If your students are still taking 20-30 seconds to first round down range on a transition stage, it is too soon for an AQT.  They have not yet learned (or implemented) the maxim "don't let perfect be the enemy of good enough".

Here is what I do to combat this issue:

On day one, after the introduction to transition to seated, I run what I call the "one shot" drill.  It is specifically designed to improve time-to-first-round-fired.  Target- 4MOA square.  Transition to Prone/Transition to Seated (dealers choice). 1 mag, one round.  Time limit of 15 seconds.  Standard line commands for a transition stage. 
Cease Fire is to be called 15 seconds after the Fire! command.  The first go, the vast majority of the line will have not fired a shot.  Do not go down range (what's the point?)  The drill is to then be repeated.  The second go, many shooters will have rushed their shots, in an attempt to beat the clock.  Have only those shooters who fired a round go down range to mark targets.  Repeat the drill until the majority of your students are capable of firing their first round in less than 15 seconds.  Be mindful of those who are struggling to get into position- work with them one-on-one to find areas that they might improve.  Once the drill has begun to sink in, post up an AQT, and have them prep one mag with two rounds.  They will fire the first two rounds of either stage 2, or stage 3, with a time limit of 18 seconds.  This portion of the drill will be repeated until the preponderance of students are not only capable of firing their rounds, but they must be HITS; after all, only hits count! 

[jmdavis]

OK, another anecdote from the Feb 2010 Ramseur RBC. The first day of the Appleseed, I stayed around to certify a few guys shooting KD AQT's (this was before there was a KD requirement but we thought it was important). Crashkid2k and West were shooting the AQT's and I was scoring, calling the line.

West was up and we had moved to the 300 yard targets. On Rapid prone, his first shot wasn't downrange until 31 seconds. He cleaned the stage.

Now West is a Double Distinguished shooter (Service Rifle and Pistol). And he had spent time shooting with the Delaware Air Guard shooting team. He is good.

But, you don't learn the precise application of marksmanship by shooting fast and then becoming accurate. You learn it by shooting accurately and then getting faster. I've found that to be true for High Power, 3 Gun, IDPA, Cowboy action, Bullseye and PPC. Students will try to shoot faster than they are capable of if that is what they are urged to do. VAShooter and I based the KD work that we did on the principle of shooting accurately and then building speed. Our KD qualification rate was over 50% over a period of 3 years.

I don't care how fast you shoot if you miss and I have seen good instructors crack on KD when they get to 300 and 400 yards MANY times. They will shoot 100 pretty good, 200 ok, and then the wheels fall off. Part of the issue is mental (they get intimidated by KD), part is that someone has given them information that cadence is more important than sight alignment, trigger control, and NPA; and part is due to trying to get shots off before they have sight alignment and NPOA. Its always better to not get a shot off and shoot 9-5's than it is to shoot 9-4's and a miss.

I know that some of you are tired of my discussions on these subjects, but I think that it is important. It is important to Appleseed and to the people being taught. I can always help someone to become faster once they have mastered precise shooting, but I can't always make a fast shooter precise.

Good luck.

[ItsanSKS]

...you don't learn the precise application of marksmanship by shooting fast and then becoming accurate...

'Tis an excellent point sir, and well taken.  When teaching prone, or seated, students should not be hurried; they should be impressed with the ideal positions, and how best to achieve stability within them.  Graduation from static positions to transitions should not occur until proficiency in the position has been achieved.  I set the bar at 3/5 hits in the black of a 4 MOA square from a static position.  Unless the preponderance of students have achieved this minimum standard, the line does not progress to transitions, and certainly not to the AQT.   

[jmdavis]

That's good instructional methodology. Thanks for sharing that. It would be good for that information and idea to make its way into the IBC, shootboss and instructor manuals.

[hogfamily]

Wow, I really misread the title of this thread.
Was maybe worried with what I might find when I opened it.

We actually had one of those drills here in Alaska thanks to fisherdawg...

[PHenry]

A printed POI? Now what SB would be so retentive. 

[fisherdawg]

That photo is a copyright violation, sir.

Wow, I really misread the title of this thread.
Was maybe worried with what I might find when I opened it.

We actually had one of those drills here in Alaska thanks to fisherdawg...