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Ramseur NC Appleseed August 15-16 2015

Started by KARDIAK KID, August 19, 2015, 02:31:14 PM

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KARDIAK KID

We had another great weekend with great people and now better Americans . We had a retuning family, that are great supporters of Project Appleseed. They all requalified Rifleman. Also got 2 new riflemen and 1 new IIT0. Brad F. shot Rifleman with his M-1 Garand an took an orange hat. The hat will have to rest for a year, Brad is deplying overseas, to a non-shooting enviroment, and this was his last weekend to have trigger time. Saturday got a little warm but Sunday was great. Thanks to the unknown mower, the range looked fantastic. Thanks to Cousin Hart, Thadduss, Engineering Jim and M1NC for helping me stay on track.   
Dusty old helmet, rusty old gun,
They sit in the corner and wait –
Two souvenirs of the Second World War
That have withstood the time, and the hate.
Many times I've wanted to ask them –
And now that we're here all alone,
Relics all three of a long ago war –
Where has freedom gone?
Mute witness to a time of much trouble,
Where kill or be killed was the law –
Were these implements used with high honor?
What was the glory they saw?
Freedom flies in your heart like an eagle.
Let it soar with the winds high above
Among the spirits of soldiers now sleeping,
Guard it with care and with love.
I salute my old friends in the corner.
I agree with all they have said –
And if the moment of truth comes tomorrow,
I'll be free, or By God, I'll be dead!
Audie Murphy

KARDIAK KID

Finally got my "Rifleman" patch and orange "Instructor in Training" hat at the Appleseed rifle clinic in Ramseur, NC yesterday. Two things made it even more cool to me - this the Appleseed home range, and I shot it with my M1 Garand. The Appleseed Qualification Test is adapted from the old Army course of fire, and was surprisingly challenging. This is the 25 yard qualification target. The silhouettes simulate 100, 200, 300, and 400 yards. My target is partially obscured in the photo, but from top to bottom it's ten shots standing in two minutes, then ten shots sitting in 55 seconds (two shots, then reload with eight), ten shots prone in 65 seconds (two and eight again), and ten shots prone. In five minutes. The final prone score is doubled, for a possible maximum of 250. To qualify as "Rifleman" you have to shoot at least 210. I had come close a couple times (once I got a 208!) but this time I got 221. So there's still room for improvement.
smile emoticon
. After I qualified we moved over to the KD range where I confirmed my 300 yard zero and rang steel for awhile. Awesome weekend! If you want to improve your marksmanship, look for an Appleseed Project rifle clinic near you. Www.AppleseedInfo.org
Dusty old helmet, rusty old gun,
They sit in the corner and wait –
Two souvenirs of the Second World War
That have withstood the time, and the hate.
Many times I've wanted to ask them –
And now that we're here all alone,
Relics all three of a long ago war –
Where has freedom gone?
Mute witness to a time of much trouble,
Where kill or be killed was the law –
Were these implements used with high honor?
What was the glory they saw?
Freedom flies in your heart like an eagle.
Let it soar with the winds high above
Among the spirits of soldiers now sleeping,
Guard it with care and with love.
I salute my old friends in the corner.
I agree with all they have said –
And if the moment of truth comes tomorrow,
I'll be free, or By God, I'll be dead!
Audie Murphy

Thaddeus

Here is the 'class photo' of a weekend made for great shooting.

RazorRay

Another great time at Appleseed. Congrats SK, and a big Thank you to all how volunteer there time to put in such a terrific organization job well done.

Specialkay

This was my first appleseed, and it exceeded my expectations (and I had already heard so many good things about the program). The instructors were extremely helpful and very welcoming. The material was easily absorbed and very well presented.

I was expecting the program to be a one-and-done introductory shooting course. I wasn't expecting it to be something that I would benefit from taking multiple times. But after seeing most of the participants returning for their 2nd, 3rd or more times, it made me realize how adaptive the program was to different shooting levels.

I was only able to shoot a high score of 199 on my best AQT. But I'm planning on coming back. I need to get a semi-auto 22lr (planning on a 10/22) as the bolt I was using was slowing me down too much, and do some (lots) of dry fire practicing before I come back. Hopefully then I'll be able to break through the 210 score mark.

Thanks to all the instructors for a fantastic course.
May 2016 - Rifleman - Ramseur (216)
June 10, 2017 - KD Qualified - Ramseur (33/40)
June 11, 2017 - KD Perfect Score - Ramseur (40/40)

Moylan

Quote from: Specialkay on August 25, 2015, 11:44:45 AMI need to get a semi-auto 22lr (planning on a 10/22) as the bolt I was using was slowing me down too much...
I thought the same thing, and I did buy an autoloader to bring with me.  But I wound up going back to the bolt gun instead.

If you can afford a 10/22 then by all means buy one!  They're great rifles and I love mine.  But you don't need one for Appleseed! 
The chief mark of the Declaration of Independence is the theory of equality.  It is the pure classic conception that no man must aspire to be anything more than a citizen, and that no man should endure to be anything less. 

--GK Chesterton

I believe in liberty very much as Jefferson did, allowing for the fact that a hundred years of history and experience have taught me to believe a little more than he did in original sin.

--also GK Chesterton

Specialkay

Quote from: Moylan on August 25, 2015, 12:18:50 PM
If you can afford a 10/22 then by all means buy one!  They're great rifles and I love mine.  But you don't need one for Appleseed!

I ended up doing fine, as a 199 isn't a bad score, and the last time I had picked up a rifle and seriously shot at targets was about 15 years ago in the scouts. That being said, I think there were three things that held be back from those added 11 points.

1. The operation of the bolt caused me to break my sight picture after every shot, and caused me to rush stages 2 and 3.

2. I was using factory razor sights (I think they are called partridge sights). I ended up doing fine with them, but I could probably do better with some peep-hole sights.

3. I had some flinching going on at various stages of the course. I did my best to correct it, but only so much you can do in 2 days.

The last one comes down to practice and dry fire. Plain and simple. With enough practice, I know I could get a 210+ with a bolt action and factory sights. And I may want to in the future. I know a semi-auto isn't required, but I can't help but thinking it would help. I can afford it, and I have space in the gun safe for another 22lr. But I'm always open to comments and suggestions, so if you think it would be better for me not to get the 10/22, I'll all ears  :)
May 2016 - Rifleman - Ramseur (216)
June 10, 2017 - KD Qualified - Ramseur (33/40)
June 11, 2017 - KD Perfect Score - Ramseur (40/40)

Moylan

#7
Quote from: Specialkay on August 25, 2015, 12:47:06 PM1. The operation of the bolt caused me to break my sight picture after every shot, and caused me to rush stages 2 and 3.
This was my biggest problem, too, until an instructor pointed out that I should make darn sure not to break my cheek weld while working the bolt.  On a 22, chances are high that you can work the bolt without moving your face.  It makes a huge difference.

Quote2. I was using factory razor sights (I think they are called partridge sights). I ended up doing fine with them, but I could probably do better with some peep-hole sights.
Yes, peep sights will definitely help.  Williams makes really good aperture sights that will fit a wide variety of rifles.  Some of them are click adjustable, some are not.  I've got the WGRS version on my son's old Marlin 25N, which is what I shot with at Appleseed.  These sights are not click adjustable, so they take a little longer to get zeroed, and of course they're not as easily adjusted for windage or elevation changes.  But at least on the 25 yard line, once you get them properly adjusted, they're fantastic, especially when you screw in the tiny little target aperture.  I vastly prefer Williams to Tech Sights.  (Just MHO, of course!)

Quoteif you think it would be better for me not to get the 10/22, I'll all ears  :)
No, not in the least!  Like I said, if you can afford it, go for it!  You won't regret having a 10-22.  I'm just saying you don't need one--IOW, don't stress out too much about the rifle you bring. 

Another way to look at it is this.  Suppose you can afford a 10-22.  You buy it, and then you've got the rifle with its stock sights and one magazine.  You'll still need an extra magazine, if at all possible.  Plus the sling studs.  Plus, maybe, some decent sights.  Alternatively, you can keep the rifle (and I imagine the sling) you already have, and add better sights to it, and buy some extra magazines or whatever.  Now you're all set. 

If money isn't really an issue, none of this matters.  But if you're like me and you have to make hard choices about how to spend your limited budget, you shouldn't let yourself feel pushed into buying a 10-22.  Does that make sense? 
The chief mark of the Declaration of Independence is the theory of equality.  It is the pure classic conception that no man must aspire to be anything more than a citizen, and that no man should endure to be anything less. 

--GK Chesterton

I believe in liberty very much as Jefferson did, allowing for the fact that a hundred years of history and experience have taught me to believe a little more than he did in original sin.

--also GK Chesterton

Specialkay

Quote from: Moylan on August 25, 2015, 01:19:53 PM
This was my biggest problem, too, until an instructor pointed out that I should make darn sure not to break my cheek weld while working the bolt.  On a 22, chances are high that you can work the bolt without moving your face.  It makes a huge difference.

I realized it was possible not to break my cheek weld while working the bolt. Not that I was able to do that every time, but I recognized it was possible. I had a really hard time:
a. Maintaining the cheek weld;
b. Maintaining the sight alignment;
c. Maintaining the sight picture;
d. Moving my trigger arm and being able to put it in exactly the same place; and
e. Moving my trigger hand and being able to put it in exactly the same place on the trigger

All while working the bolt, putting off 10 rounds in 55 or 65 seconds.

I think it's possible, and I would love to learn how to do it, but I'm not trying to over complicate things on the first rifleman  :))

Quote from: Moylan on August 25, 2015, 01:19:53 PMI vastly prefer Williams to Tech Sights.  (Just MHO, of course!)

I'll have to look into them. Thanks for the suggestion.

Quote from: Moylan on August 25, 2015, 01:19:53 PMAnother way to look at it is this.  Suppose you can afford a 10-22.  You buy it, and then you've got the rifle with its stock sights and one magazine.  You'll still need an extra magazine, if at all possible.  Plus the sling studs.  Plus, maybe, some decent sights.  Alternatively, you can keep the rifle (and I imagine the sling) you already have, and add better sights to it, and buy some extra magazines or whatever.  Now you're all set. 

Your points are well taken, but I guess I view it a little differently.

Granted, either upgrading the sights on the CZ-452 I have now, or on a new gun, going to be about the same. So I'm out ~$60 either way. If working the bolt gun is harder, and it takes me (lets say) 2 more appleseeds to pass the AQT, the registration portion will end up running me $120, plus the ammo at about $135 per course, for a total out of pocket of about $450. Or, if getting a 10/22 requires one less appleseed, then my costs go down by the $60 registration and the $135 in ammo, but go up by about $250 (being the cost of a halfway decent used 10/22). So I actually spend $55 more dollars, but I have an extra gun to show for it (and can either sell or trade the gun later, and end up spending about $200 less by going with the 10/22).

Two sides of the same coin though. Just different ways of looking at it.

That all assumes it would be easier and faster for me to be able to qualify on the 10/22 as opposed to the bolt. It's possible I could pass the AQT next go around with the bolt, or it could take 4 tries. It could take 2 more with the 10/22, who knows.

And it's not likely that I'm going to stop once I get rifleman though. I'll likely want to continue on with a centerfire rifle (I've always wanted to shoot my AR really well). But I'm just looking at the cost to get to rifleman, and everything after that is what it is  @)

Quote from: Moylan on August 25, 2015, 01:19:53 PMIf money isn't really an issue, none of this matters.  But if you're like me and you have to make hard choices about how to spend your limited budget, you shouldn't let yourself feel pushed into buying a 10-22.  Does that make sense?

It makes sense. I don't feel pushed at all. I don't feel like I need to. But I do feel like it would make it easier on me.

I wouldn't say money isn't an issue. We all have budgets to live with. If it wasn't, I'd be looking at picking up a Volquartsen Custom instead of a 10/22.
May 2016 - Rifleman - Ramseur (216)
June 10, 2017 - KD Qualified - Ramseur (33/40)
June 11, 2017 - KD Perfect Score - Ramseur (40/40)

Moylan

#9
I'm stunned by the figure you mention for ammo cost.  What are you shooting?  You should be able to find CCI standard velocity at ten cents/round or less.  Or minimags for that price or lower.  I don't think you need to get into the high-priced target ammunition for our events, even if you want to avoid the cheaper bulk pack stuff.  CCI standard is plenty good!   

As I was writing the above, some Federal popped up on Wikiarms for less than seven cents/round (plus shipping, of course).  http://www.natchezss.com/american-eagle-rimfire-ammunition.html?src=ppj&utm_source=pj&utm_medium=affiliate&utm_campaign=62182

EDIT: already out of stock!  But here's a pretty decent deal http://www.midwayusa.com/product/832004/federal-ammunition-shooters-pack-22-long-rifle-and-556x45mm-nato-box-of-460-400-rounds-22-long-rifle-and-60-rounds-556x45mm-nato?cm_vc=rotator

On the rifle, it sounds like you've got it sorted, and like I said, I sure don't want to discourage you from buying a new rifle.  Hope to see you on the line soon!
The chief mark of the Declaration of Independence is the theory of equality.  It is the pure classic conception that no man must aspire to be anything more than a citizen, and that no man should endure to be anything less. 

--GK Chesterton

I believe in liberty very much as Jefferson did, allowing for the fact that a hundred years of history and experience have taught me to believe a little more than he did in original sin.

--also GK Chesterton

Specialkay

22lr ammo is about as easy to find in person around here as Bigfoot. Ordering it online you get what you can get. I prefer Midway or Luckygunner, and the past few weeks have shown all CCI 22lr as "Out of Stock," "Backorder," or their $0.22 per round stuff. I hate ordering things on backorder. So I'm forced to buy what's in stock.

Generally speaking, I've found the cheaper ammo has a tendency to not perform very well when you need it to.

I've had very bad experiences with Winchester and American Eagle ammo for pistol. Their 22lr may be different, but it certainly gives me hesitation on its use from the get go.

The appleseed I attended, I brought two types of 22lr ammo: a more expensive Eley (250 rounds) and a "cheap" Sellier & Bellot (500 rounds). I used the Eley for the AQTs until I ran out, then switched to the Sellier & Bellot. The Sellier & Bellot was just pure trash. The bullets would constantly deform in the feed ramp. In one AQT, I had 4 bullets IN A ROW that failed to feed and caused a jam. Each time I would have to remove the magazine and toss the deformed round aside. That happened on stage 1 of the AQT. With 4 shots not counting, it was almost impossible for me to hit a 210+. Very demoralizing. I didn't have a single problem with any of the Eley.

I may not have a problem with any other type of ammo, but I don't really want to chance it. Mid-grade Eley ammo is still going to run $0.20-0.30 a round, depending on what you get. I got 500 rounds of their target ammo (at $0.15 a round, plus shipping of course), and I'm hopeful it'll work good enough, but I'd hate to find out otherwise.

I'm happy to take suggestions on ammo, don't get me wrong. But it does make me nervous.
May 2016 - Rifleman - Ramseur (216)
June 10, 2017 - KD Qualified - Ramseur (33/40)
June 11, 2017 - KD Perfect Score - Ramseur (40/40)

jmdavis

You can get eley target for .13/round. Not as cheap as CCI, but for many guns it provides better performance. Check with Champions Choice. When they have CCI STD, it is .08/per round + shipping.
"If a man does his best, what else is there?"  - General George S. Patton Jr

  ...We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
  For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
  Shall be my brother...-Shakespeare, Henry V
 

"There's a great deal of talk about loyalty from the bottom to the top. Loyalty from the top down is even more necessary and is much less prevalent. One of the most frequently noted characteristics of great men who have remained great is loyalty to their subordinates."
- General George S. Patton, Jr

"Your body can't go where your mind hasn't been."
- Alex Arrieta 1995 NTI Winner

Specialkay

If you had to choose between CCI and Eley, which would you choose?
May 2016 - Rifleman - Ramseur (216)
June 10, 2017 - KD Qualified - Ramseur (33/40)
June 11, 2017 - KD Perfect Score - Ramseur (40/40)

Agrivere

Eley, without question, but there are many good target ammo choices that aren't too expensive. Eley Target, Wolf Match Target ,SK Standard Plus, and Norma Match just to name a handful. Keep in mind that only 3 companies make all of the decent 22 target ammo - Eley, Lapua, and RWS. Norma, Wolf, SK, Geco, and others are all made by either Lapua or RWS, and they are all pretty similar. Eley of course makes their own and a couple of target lines for Remington. Avoid the Mexican made Eley as its made by Aguila and in my experience it's awful.

Of course CCI Standard usually shoots pretty well too.
"The great body of our citizens shoot less as times goes on. We should encourage rifle practice among schoolboys, and indeed among all classes, as well as in the military services by every means in our power. Thus, and not otherwise, may we be able to assist in preserving peace in the world... The first step � in the direction of preparation to avert war if possible, and to be fit for war if it should come � is to teach men to shoot." -Theodore Roosevelt

Specialkay

I wasn't aware so few manufacturers made all the 22lr ammo. Interesting.

To me, $0.13 per round isn't expensive. If I'm plinking around and spending $6.50 or $8.00 per time, I'm fine with it. If I'm doing a serious AQT and spending $78 for 600 rounds, I'm ok with that too. I'm not doing it every weekend or anything. If instead I went with a cheaper, $0.09 round, and was able to save $24 in ammo while doing an AQT, I'm all the happier. But it's almost worth the money to have peace of mind that I'm that much less likely to be getting jams or mis-fires.

Of course, if I was firing 1,000+ rounds a month on a regular basis, my story would change.

I have 500 rounds of Eley target for now (plus a few other types to try out). If it works, I'll probably stick with it. I may plink around with some CCI ammo to see how it works, but I doubt I'll be getting it in bulk or anything. Provided of course that I can continue to get Eley target. Supply/Demand is one cruel mistress.

Greensboro has a gun show this weekend, and I think I'll go to see if I can't find a decent 10/22. Maybe I'll get lucky and find a used one with decent sights already installed. Unlikely, but who knows. I'm generally not a fan of buying guns from gun shows, but its hard to resist the urge to see what they have. I started looking on line for an after-market trigger for the 10/22, but I had to stop myself. After all, I don't even have the gun yet.  #)
May 2016 - Rifleman - Ramseur (216)
June 10, 2017 - KD Qualified - Ramseur (33/40)
June 11, 2017 - KD Perfect Score - Ramseur (40/40)