Perspective on our IMC Instructions

[Corvette]

Came across the following during normal web surfing. Video is made by an ex-SEAL.  After viewing this, you should all have a new perspective on the quality of our IMC instructions. Never forget, what we present at every Appleseed is first rate.  We should all be proud of the quality of our intructions. While not new, what we deliver to our attendees is the finest field marksmanship training avialble in the US. Everybody start studying your Points of Instrucations, the events will be here before you know it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtfAi5FTHZk

Corvette

[Big John]

Oh wow. That is wrong on so many levels.

People think BSZ and normal zero are incompatible. I have a rifle zeroed at 100, with the scope turrets at 0. If I dial in 2 MOA, I hit my 200 yard zero,
but that also is my BSZ that I could leave it on if I wanted to. Or the old 30-06 deer hunter version, you're on at 50 and 200, and an inch high at 100.

Nice mag monopod, too.

[2 clicks low]

A seal zeroing by trial & error 

What navy? Hopefully not ours.

[stagehand steve]

Those groups did not look like 4 MOA.  Maybe 8.

I hope he was a lot better at CQB (most likely very good at that).

== ss ==

[slim]

Keep in mind we strive for 4moa precision and this video was demonstrating quick and dirty ways to get "minute of man" (20moa) and a 100yd zero with an AR.

[viperrt1]

No disrespect, is he a real seal? There a lot of stolen Valor. YouTube full of this. For every one real there's 100s of fakes.

[proneshooter]

No disrespect, is he a real seal?

Yes, he is

[viperrt1]

No disrespect, is he a real seal?

Yes, he is

Ok thanks

[Two Wolves]

Now that was painful to watch! 

[slim]

How many of you have plopped down at 100yds and fired a 5-shot group rapid with no sling? I think you'll find it's a bit different than the precision shooting you're accustomed to. You might also find an 8moa group under those conditions more than acceptable.

Our curriculum is geared toward making precise shots from a sling supported field position. This video was not. What is important to note is this dude kept it simple, clear, and short. He achieved his purpose in under 5 minutes. That's definitely something we can take away.

[viperrt1]

Both cmp/nra you drop and shoot. Now few difference. Sling and 10 rounds. BUT still same idea.

Whole point of appleseed is to take military training and train you.
I'm not too surprised that we'll train person can out shoot him. You be floored how little arms training to days military has. Even in seals.

[stagehand steve]

How many of you have plopped down at 100yds and fired a 5-shot group rapid with no sling? I think you'll find it's a bit different than the precision shooting you're accustomed to. You might also find an 8moa group under those conditions more than acceptable.

Our curriculum is geared toward making precise shots from a sling supported field position. This video was not. What is important to note is this dude kept it simple, clear, and short. He achieved his purpose in under 5 minutes. That's definitely something we can take away.

Slim,

I think you make some valid points.  If I was to shoot unsupported by sling and monopoding like in that video, I imagine that I would generate similar groups.

It is worth noting that the military can't seem to get put together training that is equal to Appleseed for their average soldier.  I think that someone who has mastered the Rifleman's skill to the 4MOA standard we teach could get a more reliable zero using a loop sling within the same amount of time.

The video does seem aimed at the lowest common denominator of shooting skill in the military.  That being said, if the service person that needed that video followed it's recommendations, they would be farther along than without.

There, how is that for straddling the fence? 

== ss ==

PS Looking forward to next Saturday in Richmond so you can thump me in person for my upstart Indiana ways!   

[slim]

It is worth noting that the military can't seem to get put together training that is equal to Appleseed for their average soldier.

It's not so much a question of can they (because they totally can, and do) it's a matter of mission requirements. The average service member has no reason to be 4moa precise so the military doesn't waste time training them to do so. "Minute of man to 300 meters" is plenty good for most folks. That's what this video is about.

If you really wanted to compare Apples to Appleseed find a video of a Navy SEAL who's explaining their precision shooting instruction and put that up against ours. This dude was presenting a quick and dirty, "Get zeroed good enough for combat." That's not what we do. We do a "Get zeroed so you can make 4moa hits at 500 yards." I bet there's a video of a SEAL out there doing that.

This doesn't mean to take away from what we do. We're absolutely the best amateur shooting instructors out there and our curriculum is outstanding. But to say we're better than Navy SEALS would be quite a stretch.

[jmdavis]

For those who would criticize the marksmanship training of SEALS.  Check out the story of Petty Officer, later Commander R.J. Thomas.

Thomas was one of those "Navy" team shooters who in March 1969 held off up to a company of attackers with a Match conditioned 1911 and 80 rounds. His helicopter had been hit by an RPG on a recon mission, he was thrown clear but left with only a 1911 in operation. With a broken back, he pulled the pilot out of the burning cockpit and went back to try to save others trapped by the crash. He then defended those left alive with a 1911 for over 30 minutes until rescue could be organized.

http://www.examiner.com/article/vietnam-war-action-historical-proof-of-45-acp-s-famed-takedown-power

They were rescued by Army helicopters and those pilots who witnessed the actions of Thomas recommended him for the Medal of Honor. In the end there were 37 dead VC ranging from 3 to over 150 yards out. He received the Navy Cross for the action.

That's what a SEAL, Navy shooting team member can do. Thomas earned his distinguished badge for rifle in 1971, and went on to earn his distinguished pistol badge making him one of a rare class of shooters to double distinguish. Later in his career he would serve as OIC of the pacific fleet matches and after rertirement he worked as a coach for many shooters on the west coast.

[viperrt1]

For those who would criticize the marksmanship training of SEALS.  Check out the story of Petty Officer, later Commander R.J. Thomas.

Thomas was one of those "Navy" team shooters who in March 1969 held off up to a company of attackers with a Match conditioned 1911 and 80 rounds. His helicopter had been hit by an RPG on a recon mission, he was thrown clear but left with only a 1911 in operation. With a broken back, he pulled the pilot out of the burning cockpit and went back to try to save others trapped by the crash. He then defended those left alive with a 1911 for over 30 minutes until rescue could be organized.

http://www.examiner.com/article/vietnam-war-action-historical-proof-of-45-acp-s-famed-takedown-power

They were rescued by Army helicopters and those pilots who witnessed the actions of Thomas recommended him for the Medal of Honor. In the end there were 37 dead VC ranging from 3 to over 150 yards out. He received the Navy Cross for the action.

That's what a SEAL, Navy shooting team member can do. Thomas earned his distinguished badge for rifle in 1971, and went on to earn his distinguished pistol badge making him one of a rare class of shooters to double distinguish. Later in his career he would serve as OIC of the pacific fleet matches and after rertirement he worked as a coach for many shooters on the west coast.

Yep 70s and 1911 vs today and beretta. He was instructe under old school  one shot one kill. Now we spray and pray.......

[jmdavis]

Viperrt1,

I have shot often the past few years with members of the Navy Shooting Team. They have among them men who know well what they are about with Pistols (1911's and Berettas) and Rifles. CDR Matt Bartel won the NTI last year with a 494-22 in tough conditions (wind and rain). He also happens to be in that group of Navy Double Distinguished shooters (Rifle and Pistol).

[slim]

When those guys instruct sight adjustments, how do they do it?

[viperrt1]

Viperrt1,

I have shot often the past few years with members of the Navy Shooting Team. They have among them men who know well what they are about with Pistols (1911's and Berettas) and Rifles. CDR Matt Bartel won the NTI last year with a 494-22 in tough conditions (wind and rain). He also happens to be in that group of Navy Double Distinguished shooters (Rifle and Pistol).

Ya the shoot teams are top notch no doubt. But that very small slice. Any of the armed force shooting teams are. But the basic grunt not so much.

[proneshooter]

When those guys instruct sight adjustments, how do they do it?

When you say "those guys" I'm going to assume you refer to the military shooting teams.

If so, I won't presume to know how they train combat units to shoot.  However, when they give competition clinics (in NM shooting) they teach IMC, except nobody calls it that. 

[jmdavis]

One major difference is the attention that they pay to sight alignment. I don't have video of CDR Bartel teaching a SAFS at the Atlantic Fleet Matches in 2013.

But the instruction largely follows this video in several parts of 2013 National Champion Brandon Green teaching. Brandon's video is not for a SAFS but for basic rifle marksmanship. It has been noted on the forums before. One major difference is the attention that they pay to sight alignment.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAZP0QvFBy0


Part 2. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nm_t-dUAe6I

Part 3. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=976InYrP40U

Part 4. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ClqYY9U3yY
Part 4 includes adjusting sights.

Part 5. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBTtKTUu9jA

Part 6. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19CEXtlroD8
Starts with the importance of a no wind zero

Part 7. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bnNNFwGUkQ
Range time and zeroing

Were one to take the time to watch this instruction. He would be able to determine the strengths and weaknesses. Further if one were to read the AMU Service Rifle Manual, one would see a number of things that look familiar and predate Appleseed by decades. The same would be true of Jim Owens books (particularly "Sight Alignment, Trigger Control and the Big Lie") these books in their original form also predate Appleseed by almost 2 decades.

What reading these books and watching these videos can do for an Appleseed instructor is expand his/her knowledge base and allow him to solve problems. As a shooter this knowledge, with consistent and perfect practice, will help the shooter improve his shooting. Then again, one can keep doing the same things and telling himself that he is the greatest and not improve at all.

[proneshooter]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAZP0QvFBy0

Did you read the comments on that first video?  SMH.........

[jmdavis]

I had not, I now have and have to question if some of the commenters actually watched the video. Brandon explains trigger finger placement as natural. Natural means what feels right to you. You test it by watching the front sight as you break the shot. The goal is steady even pressure to the rear that fires the rifle without disturbing the sights. That's it. That's the goal. As far as I am concerned, it doesn't matter if you use the pad, the crease or the second knuckle. IF you fire the gun without disturbing the sights. The argument that a specific trigger finger placement is "right" is not supported by fact or data.

It's like yelling at a student that she is dragging wood without bothering to watch the front sight or examine the target. If the muzzle isn't moving and the target looks good, it is irrelevant whether the finger is touching the stock. All that matters is activating the trigger without disturbing the sights. People with small hands will drag wood (by the normal Appleseed definition) that doesn't mean that they won't shoot well.

[proneshooter]

You and I are on the same page.

BTW thanks for finding those videos.  I need to go over them carefully and bookmark them when I get home.

[jmdavis]

Rayne,

I do take shooting seriously. I want to master it. That means that I work at it, think about it, read about it, talk to High Master shooters about it, and sometimes even dream about it.


Brandon is teaching the process of triangulation with 5 shot groups (which by the way is what we call for in the instructor manual) as well as teaching the student his sights (similar to shooting a box). He is with the Army Marksmanship Unit out of Ft. Benning.

In 2012 I was squadded with Brandon at the Creedmoor Cup. I was in the pits pulling targets while he was shooting 600. His first sighter shot at 600 was off the target. The second sighter shot was a 6 at 9. His first shot for record was a 9 at 9.  He then proceeded to fire a 197-14x. On that day that score was good enough to earn 9th place overall. In other words, he knows exactly how to adjust his sights based on a single visible shot.

I didn't see monopodding on the range in the AMU videos that I posted. I saw the shooter  using a wrist rest and zeroing exactly as described in the military manual.

Finally, if you watch until the end you will hear Brandon say the following "...sight alignment and trigger control. Those are the two paramount fundamentals that you have to master in order...to shoot small groups like that and correctly zero a rifle."

[Big John]

Then why did he make that video the way he did? We've been discussing two things, which are his shooting form, and his method of sight adjustment. The shooting form is debatable, certainly, and I'll get to that in a minute, but the idea of our IMC is always worth doing. He could have done something as simple as, ok, my group is six inches high, I'm at 100 yards, my optic is 1/2 MOA per click, ergo 12 clicks down should help and literally do it faster than I typed it. There's never a need to just dump sight adjustments in of some amount.

I shall watch all the videos with anticipation and interest.

While I will not comment on monopoding an AR mag regarding the stability, I will comment that the rifle was not designed for that and you are putting the weight of the rifle on the mag catch and you can bend your aluminum mags at that point, wallow out the PMags at that point, or break the mag catch. At the least, you can induce jams as the mag starts to get loose and gets too high and hits the bolt.

[jmdavis]

OK guys, Monopodding is taught by the military these days for combat shooting. Why? Because it increases hits. If you talk to current military combat marksmanship instructors they will tell you that mono-podding with modern magazines DOES NOT increase the chance of failure. It does increase the chance of hits when you are tired and shooting for your life.

Appleseed does not teach the method because Appleseed is derived from traditional competitive marksmanship (Highpower) where the use of a sling replaces the wrist rest or magazine monopod. There are certain changes, but the qual that we shoot and that military shot prior to the 1960's and popups is basically a highpower course of fire with the same transitions and times. It goes all the way back to the 20's.

[proneshooter]

JM, I'm glad you said what you said.

We have been in continuous war for over a decade.  The people doing this fighting have been putting old and new tactics, techniques, and procedures to the acid test for that long.  Some things have stood the test of time, some have not.

Questioning subject matter experts like Kyle Defoor or the Army Marksmanship Unit is not to be done lightly.

[slim]

What we need to remember is we're instructing our course. That doesn't mean it's the best way to shoot. Doesn't mean it's the worst. It's simply our curriculum and the way we do it. If you shoot several different ways you'll find some ways work better than others and what works for you may not be the same as what we instruct.

Our course is designed to impart the maximum amount of skills in the least amount of time.

Corvette posted this video to show the level of professionalism of our instruction. What we instruct can be more advanced than what Navy SEALs show on YouTube. It's worth noting our curriculum would be considered "advanced" at many of the ranges and shooting courses across the country. The knowledge our IIT-3s and above have places them in the top tier of rifle marksmanship instructors in the nation. Nothing wrong with taking a little pride in that.

But do you really think the Navy SEAL in the video couldn't do IMC? Did you consider maybe he went too far on purpose to show "bracketing back" as an instructional technique? If he would've just shot, adjusted, and then been on he would have lost the opportunity to show folks how to make the adjustment back to the target. In that one "mistake" he made he actually proved he was doing IMC. "Go back half the distance we just adjusted and we should be dead on."

Don't be an Appleseed snob.

One thing that really irks me is seeing Appleseed instructors (who take a whole lot of pride in being Appleseeders - yet don't do much other shooting) critiquing the form and technique of shooters on pictures/video posted on social media. "That elbow could be under the rifle a bit more but other than that she looks pretty good." As jmdavis points out above, there's no sense in "correcting" something if the shooter is hitting the target.

Too often we instruct shooters so we can prove how knowledgeable we are. There's no need to fix things that aren't broken. There's also a big wide world of shooting out there and Appleseed is just a tiny, minute part of it. Get out there and get shooting in other disciplines. See a "mistake" on YouTube? Go try it out. Might just work well for you. Our way is not the only way.

But, when instructing at Appleseed events, our way IS the only way. We're not there to instruct other techniques. We're there to instruct our techniques. Undoubtedly you'll get shooters who ask about monopoding or bracketing back and it's good to know what that stuff is and why our way is better - in the context of what we're trying to achieve.

"If Chris Kyle uses a 2lb trigger, why is that better?" You should know the answer to that. Doesn't mean you need to go around telling everyone to change out their trigger. What it means is you should have an Appleseed answer. "Regardless of trigger pull weight, if you follow the Six Steps you'll be fine."

[Corvette]

Well, I have a couple of comments.

1.  I am pleased that my post motivated some participation.  This is as active a post as we have had on the Ohio forum in some time.

2.  My intention for this post was to pump up our Ohio instructor corp to be proud of the quality of the training we deliver.  I was not intending to trash the SEALs or the Military as much as I wanted our Ohio instructors to see it and feel good about what we deliver and maybe motivate them to start refreshing themselves on our Points of Instruction and our IMC information.

3.  I understand that folks train to different goals as detailed in the various comments.  But I do have to admit that Slim was right, I was being a bit of an "Appleseed snob".  My bad.  Slim, thanks for yet another "training point".  You never cease to amaze me.   

I thank everybody for all the insight contained in the comments and it is a reminder that no matter how much you know or how good you think you are, there are always other viewpoints, smarter peopel and other lessons to learn. 

Thanks to all who contributed, its an interesting conversation.  Now, lets go fill some 2015 shoots.

Corvette

[AFTERMATH]

As far as specific information presented, in regards to the zeroing process, our IMC module is superior. 
It contains everything he said and more, in a presentation that's not much longer. 

As far as quality of instruction - information presented is irrelevant.  It's now a matter of how well the instructor can present the information they wish to convey.  This gentleman has actually given a very good presentation and demonstration. 
Clear, concise information presented in a manner that is easy for even the average gamer on Youtube to digest.  He appears knowledgeable and confident in the content and context of his point(s) of instruction.  And for good reason, nothing he states is wrong.

If taken from the perspective of the audience, I would argue that the essence of this video was the importance of acquiring and maintaining a suitable zero for today's battlefield.  Though video editing might have been slightly misaligned. 

What we're evaluating here is several different concepts.  Content, quality and correctness.

Content?  Appleseed wins - Our IMC process when implemented correctly is simple and much more expedient in all scenarios which involve a repeatable sighting system.  IMC when implemented incorrectly, still contains the trial and error method presented.

Quality?  Depends upon the individual instructor.   I'd say his style of presentation is superior to some of our instructors.  Why?  Probably because he has years of experience and does this sorta thing on a professional level. 

Correctness?  Tie.  All the information he presented is correct - all the information we present is correct(It'd better be ).  The mission dictates the means. 

Appleseed content is top-tier and spot-on for the objective we wish to achieve.  We should be proud of ourselves for this accomplishment and do our best to be top-tier instructors in our field.  The best instructors are perpetual students.  Seek out new ways to boost your level of experience and expertise, think critically in analyzing information gathered.  As while there are many ways to skin a cat, there are certainly wrong ways as well.  Approach every engagement as a learning opportunity.

An instructor would do well to combine Appleseed content with this gentleman's style and manner of presentation.  Add a little TPI and you've got the perfect environment for a positive learning experience.

Clear, concise and confident.  Present the facts, only the facts, and minimize the inclusion of tangential tidbits.  Articulate your content in a linear fashion on a single plane.  Recap, but don't reiterate. Less is more when standing in front of group.  Remember, your five minute presentation is five minutes out of two days.  Plenty of time to personalize and individualize the POI's and any other tidbits to help folks understand and implement the marksmanship concepts we convey.

I think every post in this thread is correct, unless I missed one.  That's gotta be some sorta record.