Smith & Wesson MP-15 22 and a good book

[muffin308]

Hi Everyone,

I am new to AS and this is my first post.
I live in SE Minnesota with my wife and 4 kids and am excited to become a part of the AS team.

I just finished reading "The 5000 Year Leap" by W. Cleon Skousen published by the National Center for Constitutional Studies and recommed it for being a quick and easy read.

I have observed that young AS attendees are using the Rugers and Marlins.  These rifles are the same ones that adults use and the buttstocks are too long.  Plus the sights are hard to finely adjust.   I think the kids are having a difficult time finding correct position because of the oversize.

I heartily recommend that AS promote the Smith & Wesson MP-15 22.  The manual sights are easy to adjust (no hammer required, just clicks) and removeable.  A rail is built in for those who wish to use a scope.  The buttstock is adjustable for kids and adults.  They are light.   They are accurate.    They will handle any ammunition that I have tried.    They are simple to take apart and clean.  They are magazine fed, and the magazines are easy to insert and remove.  They are tough,  I have put over 5,000 rounds through it with fewer problems.  The safety had to be replaced with a metal one from an AR.  Two of my kids are lefty's so I made it ambidextrous.   They will appeal to youth because of the "cool" AR platform.   

I have a Ruger 10/22 with a custom thumbhole stock and Green Mountain Barrel.  The S&W shoots the same numbers on an QDAQT,  but without the fuss.

I find the S&W to be superior in every way to the Ruger 10/22.
My 2cent, FYI, no offense if you disagree,  thank you

Smith - MN 148

[PHenry]

Have read that and the one on your avatar. The 5000 year leap does have info pertinent to the program, the other not so much, but still a good read.

Have seen many MP-12 22s on line - most seem to run well.

Welcome to the party sir.
PH

[2 clicks low]

My only problem with the 15-22 is that it costs the same as 2 Rugers or 3 Marlins.

I am also biased against protruding magazines. Even the Marlin sticks out too far.

2cl

[JOEMORGAN]

Welcome to the forum. We have several shoots coming up in June; hope to meet you at one.

I borrowed a mp-15 at my first shoot, brought a centerfire and I enjoyed shooting it. I have an umarex Colt M16...it's a pain  to completely break down ( and it was spendy) but I enjoy shooting it. Gotta get that support elbow fused against the magazine to acheive the good hold factors in prone.

Again welcome and hope to see you on the trail.

[Audrey]

My only problem with the 15-22 is that it costs the same as 2 Rugers or 3 Marlins.

I am also biased against protruding magazines.

The cost of the 15-22 is probably why it's not a more common recommendation. The magazines thing can be an issue too, depending on the person and sling use.

[AFTERMATH]

The M&P's are a great rifle!

The 10/22 took the lead in the LTR field by being easily attainable, affordable, customizing and perhaps most importantly it very closely emulates the M1/M1a's that tended to dominate the Appleseed firing lines back in the day. 
Ultimately, that is the goal of the LTR concept, which is to approximate the size, handling, and operation of the user's MBR - without the heavy cost of center fire ammunition.

Now the 10/22 has soared to new levels of popularity and price.  In comes the Marlin 795, not quite as close as the 10/22 to replicating MBR's, but will hold up quite nice when it comes to teaching just the fundamentals.  The downside of this remarkably affordable option, is less end-user custom options.  I suspect that'll change as its popularity grows. 

Looking at the increased cost of new 10/22's and the prevalence of AR's as MBR's, not only does the 10/22 cost just as much when you add on the same features the 15-22, is a perfect replica of the AR thus making it quite possibly the best affordable LTR for an AR user.

[PHenry]

one of my 1022 ltrs is in a Tapco stock - think of it as a poor man's MP15 22. 

[9mm4545]

For fixing the overly long magazine on the 15/22, S&W does make a 10 round magazine--which you cannot find anywhere! Midway had them for about 10 minutes the other day but I was not fast enough and they slipped through my fingers. If anyone knows of the whereabouts of these little devils, I have a friend who owns a 15/22 that wants two of them.

[oladcock]

On one hand the program pushes rack grade, off the shelf, and surplus....In the next breath we push improvise, adapt, and overcome. Which is it? Is sawing off a stock or investing in a decent trigger creating a "equipment" mentality?

I agree 100%, way too many show up on the line with poor fitting tools. Much like the boots the regulars wore, no left/right. We can't expect one size to fit all and typically the ones who need the most help have the poorest fitting equipment of them all. I've never bought a rifle at any cost that didn't require a bit of personalization. True, a good rifleman can pick up any rifle and shoot it well, that's not to imply they couldn't shoot it BETTER if it fit them. Can't teach the fundamentals like cheek weld if one has to back up and hover to get a clear scope picture or stick the stock in their armpit to get close enough. IMO, if we don't make an effort to teach them what they need to do to get rifles to fit, and or loan them one that does till they can, it's a disservice to them. These are tools and while a ratchet can be used as a ballpeen, it's a poor choice.

Yep, the 15-22 is a decent rifle. The long mags aren't an issue with adults and can be lived with. My biggest complaint with them are the crappy trigger and sights. Installing a decent trigger gets real expensive real quick. The best I've found at the lowest price is the JP in the $120 range and requires some mechanical ability to install. The first thing I'd do with them, and with any AR going to be shot with irons is fix/get rid of that 12+MOA front post. I do that by yanking them out of there, chuck them up in a drill press, break out the file and turn them down to .035-.040", repaint and go. Makes a world of difference.

The 10-22's...Hard to beat the Axiom stock. I'd do the bolt release mod before the trigger just for it's aggravation factor. And of course decent sights. The cost factor between the 15-22 and the 10-22? A good trigger can be had on a 10-22 for $40 or less if you are handy compared to $100+ for the 15-22. By the time you are done, the cost spread is still $200+.

Improvise, adapt, and overcome is true...But it HAS to be taught.....O.L.

[SteelThunder]

I have observed that young AS attendees are using the Rugers and Marlins.  These rifles are the same ones that adults use and the buttstocks are too long.  Plus the sights are hard to finely adjust.   I think the kids are having a difficult time finding correct position because of the oversize.

One reason why the LTR concept is what it is...$60 for better sights, $30 gets a VASTLY better trigger and most Shoot Bosses/Red Hats have a youth Ruger stock in their kit.  Or you can slap a TAPCO T6 with adjustable buttstock on it and call it a day.

I've seen scads of Rifleman scores shot with 10-22s.  No doubt I'll see them with the S&W 15-22 as well, but none have crossed my path yet.  As the politically incorrect statement goes (given a basic level of equipment functionality) "It's not the arrow, but the Indian"

[FiremanBob]

I agree that the Smith is an excellent rifle. Ruger and Hogue are only two of the companies who supply youth-sized stocks for the 10/22. Cost is about $80. So you buy a Ruger and re-stock it for much less than the cost of an M&P.

[PHenry]

oladcock brings up valid point - custom or rack-grade.

I have both, I like both, and practice at both and recommend same to students. Custom to only you is fun, but I still know how to drive a stick don't I - of course I do. While u are working up perfect rifle just for u - always, always remember u need to know how to shoot rack grade. Never allow yourself to be a one-rifle Rifleman.