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Buckeye, AZ - Dec. 3-4

Started by azmule, December 03, 2011, 10:30:37 PM

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azmule

The December Buckeye event was my first one as a full Shoot Boss, and although the turnout was a little lighter than we like, I really enjoyed this one.  Saturday morning was a cold one for central Arizona, but clear - great Appleseed weather at one of my favorite ranges!  On the line we had a teenager eager to improve his marksmanship, a young man with his first rifle looking into the good things he'd been hearing about Appleseed, and a third-time attendee, knocking on the Rifleman door.  Instructing this weekend - besides myself - were two IITs; an old friend and former co-worker slinged_in, who's knowledge and easy rapport with the shooters makes him a natural teacher, and new  friend AZ_Varian who, from what I've seen so far, is going to become a valuable asset to the Arizona instructor cadre.  Not to get ahead of myself, but both of these gentlemen performed their assigned duties efficiently, effectively, and with competence!

After introductions, a brief discussion about the purpose and goals of Appleseed, the importance of our shared heritage, the journey of becoming a Rifleman, and after a thorough safety briefing, we got set up on the line and tested effective range with the weekend's first Redcoat target.  With two shooters qualifying at 100 yds (possibly negatively influenced by some shivering), we began the day with room for improvement.

Morning instruction covered proper use of a sling, a stable prone position, 6 steps to firing the shot, and natural point of aim.  As the groups shrank, a discussion of inches/minutes/clicks followed by some sight adjustment brought those groups to the point of aim.  Followed by Rifleman's Nest, Mag change, NPOA shift, the various sitting positions, and standing position.

Lunchtime, alternating between sitting behind a wall (in the shade) to get out of the wind, and sitting out in the sun (and back in the wind) to get out of the shade; made it pretty easy to imagine a cold New England spring night and day, setting the stage for the telling of the Three Strikes of the Match.

After lunch, we covered Carding the Sights and Ball & Dummy (AZ_Varian provided some .22LR snap caps, making the exercise smoother and harder to "guess" the dummies), and took turns with the laser rifle to further refine understanding of NPOA.  Followed by transitions, leading to the weekend's first AQT.  No Riflemen today, unfortunately, but the final redcoat showed improvement with one shooter qualifying at 400yds, two at 100, and one shooter joining Morgan's Rifle Company.

An even chillier Sunday morning saw the return of our new rifle owner AWDboostADDICT, and our almost-Rifleman PaxxAZ - after a brief review, our first Redcoat of the day yielded one qualified at 400, one at 100, and a member of MRC.  A quick warm-up/sight-verification on some squares, and we got started on AQTs, whereby PaxxAZ quickly joined the ranks of the American Rifleman - HUZZAH and congratulations!

A less-breezy lunch found us sitting in the warm sun for an informal discussion of cantankerous die-hard Sam Whittimore, "Death" himself Hezekiah Wyman, the Old Men of Menotomy, Mother Batherick, Mrs. Wright's Guard, and Elizibeth Zane.  Although the 50yd berm precluded shooting at full distance, lunchtime concluded with a discussion of target recognition, range estimation, range sight-adjustments, Battlesight Zero, and windage,  Then it was back at the AQTs and honing that skill-at-arms!  Including a few fast AQTs toward the end of the day to wake-up and shake-out a bit - slinged_in, who had been hearing about this exercise but hadn't yet gotten the opportunity, was allowed to grab his rifle and join in the fun, helping to dispel the rumor that the guys in the colored hats never get to shoot any more.   :---

By the end of the day,  AWDboostADDICT was quickly approaching that Rifleman score, but unfortunately it was not to be seen this weekend.  He is nonetheless equipped and eager to persist, and I have no doubt that we'll see a picture of him holding that patch in this forum soon.

And for the icing on the cake, Rifleman PaxxAZ accepted the challenge of passing on the knowledge and donned an Orange Hat!  HUZZAH!  It looks good on you sir.

Thank you all for making my first solo Shoot Boss experience such a good one!
Talk is cheap because the supply exceeds the demand.

Do or do not - there is no "try."'  -Yoda

PaxxAZ

In continuing my tradition of contrasting with previous experience I will try to showcase this weekend.

This was a Very good Appleseed, Very possibly Excellent. Instructor to shooter ratio was 125%. It was a very Cool AZ Apple Seed, but not as cold and wet as expected and not cold for anywhere else in the country.

This was also my first Appleseed where I had already met all the instructors. That was a new experience for me, I had a lot of confidence in all the instructors upon seeing their faces.

We were very few shooters, and had the chance to do some things that would normally take a lot of equipment or a lot of time to show, namely, the NPOA Laser Rifle. I continue to be in awe of AZMule's unassuming brilliance. Nothing incredible on the Surface but still great, and profound for me.   :bow:

We also did ball and dummy drills with Full Magazines, one of the IITs donated the use of some smart caps.  So Ball and Dummy was also a Failure to fire exercise.   :cool2:


Items that seemed left out, or I somehow ignored or forgot about, or with our numbers did not seem necessary to the Shootboss:

We did not do the correct the shooter exercises. Where the Class corrects the pose of a bad postured instructor by the numbers...no idea what it is called.

The Shooters nest was covered very lightly, but I think the shooters had it down and the instructor to student ratio allowed for explaining it to those that needed it.

I think Shooters bubble was not mentioned. For those on the Line, it would probably not have been an issue, hard to get or practice. In previous Appleseed's, it was a great little talk about it. It reminded me to buck it up, it happens, life is not perfect, make the best of it. This time the only distractions where talking on the line because of electronic earmuffs that allow me to hear it. However there is an off switch and I have a bubble that can deal with that, not Hot Brass to the Face quite yet, but we should all have goals. 

I learned a lot at the other two Appleseed's, but this one brought it all together. I have to say the instructors where all great, some not quite top notch practices occurred late Sunday afternoon, but it was probably that we all knew each other at that point, 4 eyes on 3 shooters was probably enough. I felt as safe on that point as any point I had ever felt at any range. At no point was anything missed safety wise, and this time I was aware of the whole line most of the time.

I will be a bit Partial to this Appleseed as it was the Appleseed where I Learned what NPOA really means, perhaps relearned what relaxed means.

When we tried the Laser Rifle, I went first and we were pointing it at a spot on the wall. Not 25 meters, more like 40 feet I think. With that I settled into what I thought was NPOA, and then they blocked my vision of the wall. So I could not see the Laser bouncing on the wall. What happened next was slight, but totally expansive for me. I was told to relax. I moved my head around to prove that "I am on NPoA, of course I am relaxed, what are you a bunch of blind people I am moving my head around. I can't move my head around if I am not relaxed..."

After those thoughts went through my mind I did a quick exercise I learned in other places and that as relaxing my numbers...and noted I was holding my shoulder blades a bit. I let that go, let some other points of tension go...and relaxed into the position.  This was the first time I had ever done so. The next morning my groups where tight, more than once we were trying to judge double holes.  I was not always on target but my groups got to where they needed to be. 
I learned what is meant by Calling the shot, if it was good, bad... I am not sure yet where it went but I know when I am on and off, and usually about where...but will forget where I think it went by the time I am walking to the target. 

On Sunday morning, I made Rifleman. I would later make another rifleman score and a couple that are probably close... I had some problems with Lunch and the Sun in the afternoon.

I still need to work on Sight Picture and on focusing on the front sight :DH:, I am not where I would like to be, but I am so much further than my first AQT some 36 hours of instruction previous.

I learned a lot at the other two Appleseed's, but this one brought it all together. I have to say the instructors where all great, some not quite top notch practices occurred late Sunday afternoon, but it was probably that we all knew each other at that point, 4 eyes on 3 shooters was probably enough.

It would be easy to say this was the best Appleseed I have attended, but I think it was the best because I attended the others.  I think it will be remembered by me simply as "The Appleseed where I made Rifleman".

PaxxAZ
There are many things talked about that make the people of the US
different; being riflemen is one, asking why is another, as is getting
what needs doing done.

-Me 2011

George Hacker

Quote from: PaxxAZ on December 05, 2011, 11:57:53 AM
I learned a lot at the other two Appleseed's, but this one brought it all together. I have to say the instructors where all great, some not quite top notch practices occurred late Sunday afternoon, but it was probably that we all knew each other at that point, 4 eyes on 3 shooters was probably enough.

It would be easy to say this was the best Appleseed I have attended, but I think it was the best because I attended the others.  I think it will be remembered by me simply as "The Appleseed where I made Rifleman".
PaxxAZ,

Thank you for the thorough review.  Yours is one of the few comprehensive reviews I have seen published by a shooter.  I hope the AZ instructor cadre is encouraged by it - well done, Team Arizona! O0

Congratulations on shooting rifleman.  Huzzah!  Huzzah!  Huzzah!   ^:)^

- ShadowMan
Tell your Pacific Northwest facebook friends to "like" and post in the Northwest Region Project Appleseed page.

"You can't miss fast enough..."  "Aim small, miss small."

PaxxAZ

They encouraged it, and we talked a bit about it at this Appleseed. I did it last time, and they seemed to like it...in fact the  :pop: I figured was a sign that it was almost expected.

However;  a few  things I forgot to mention about this Appleseed.
The tone was very intimate as we were few, this was my third, but for two others it was their first. The three strikes, where the Three Strikes; I can't say it was the best telling I had heard. The first time I heard it was very good, very fresh and the language used was unusual making me pay attention. This time it was more conversational, and as I have been immersing myself in all things American Colonies 1774~1776 in the last couple of months, I cannot judge on its potency. However Sunday we had "Crusty Old Men and an Old Fast Teenage Girl". On this I must say the conversational aspect of things was very nice, and we really had a chance to express our awe of some of these characters.  I also know most of these Characters are even more impressive the more you find out about them, and Lunch does not do them justice. Sunday I know is a bit different each time, I really liked this Talk, I got a sense that we still see the spirit and appreciate the mentality of the rebels of April 19th 1775.
I believe that we have to at least have the hope to be like some of them if we recognize what it is that they did, it gladdens me to know that many people recognize it.
Lunch does not do the Regulars justice, they really had a hard go of it, mustering at 9pm after perhaps 3~4 hours of sleep if they slept at all as they were ordered to sleep in their uniforms.  The ones that got back, had been on their feet with nearly no sleep for almost 24 hours, with probably less than 8 hours of sleep in the last 48, with Officers they did not know, With officers who did not care at all for them. That is just one aspect of things not mentioned at lunch on Saturday.
Back to topic.
One other thing forgotten or that I heard mentioned but not explained in detail...Rifleman's Cadence. That with NPOA are such major issues...just writing about it makes me want to go out to the range and plink some Redcoats.
I also did not mention these instructors where all dedicated. AZmule is the only one who's Handle I remember off the top of my head, but this was a good crew, I was proud to have spent the time I did with them.

Thanks Guys, for a great Weekend.
There are many things talked about that make the people of the US
different; being riflemen is one, asking why is another, as is getting
what needs doing done.

-Me 2011

AWDboostADDICT

hey everyone, Al here.
First things first HUGE CONGRATS TO PAXXAZ ON RIFLEMAN!!! :---
it was awesome to see how well he was shooting sunday morning.
Paxx, sorry about talking on the line, I did not know you were wearing electronic ear plugs, but im glad it didnt throw you off to bad rifleman  ;)

So this was my first appleseed.
I was using my Smith and Wesson MP15-22, an Ar-15 styled 22 by smith and wesson. I purchased the rifle 3 months ago, and it was my first rifle purchase ever. Before purchasing it I had only shot a rifle a handful of times. before this event my round count was around 1750 rounds, with maybe 5 failures, all of which have been caused by walmart federal bulk 22lr ammo which lacked primers. For this shoot I was once again using the federal bulk pack 36 gr Hollow points.

on to the shoot:

Arrived at about 8:00 monday, got to meet our three instructors and fellow shooters, then went on to a safety and rules briefing that was very in depth and made me feel like this was a very well controlled event. Brought our rifles to the line, went of the 6 basics and shot our first red coats.
this was my first time shooting past 75 ft. my first time shooting kneeling, my first time shooting with a supporting sling, so needless to say I didnt have a frickin clue what I was doing besides lining up my sights, placing them on the target and pulling the trigger.
After going over the basics of prone and using slings for support the instructors were awesome enough to let me borrow a GI sling since I have a combat/ patrol styled sling that cant really be used for support, just for carrying the rifle. So thank you a bunch Scott and Caleb for letting me use your slings!
after getting used to a sling, and a proper prone position I was already improving by leaps and bounds... around lunch I shot an AQT with a score of either 67 or 65. Disappointing, but I felt like it was alot better then I would have done previously, and I KNEW i learned alot even before lunch. Fast forward to the end of the day, we have covered all the shooting techniques and basics, and I was feeling very comfortable and confident, before leaving I told Scott and Caleb I would be shooting a 150 the following day. Got home, had a nice dinner, and practiced my NPOA and sight picture for about an hour.

DAY 2
Just myself, PaxxAZ, and our instructors today.
pretty early on in the morning I shot a 177, following that I started to get issues with my point of impacting rising almost two inches, spent alot of the morning troubleshooting and really couldnt come to any conclusions as to what the cause of the issue was, so I made a sight adjustment. In the morning we got to shoot the AQT without pause, and that was great, I feel like thats were I really learned to transfer positions, and changes mags quickly, but I did get ahead of myself and was shooting a bit to quick most of them.
Lunch:
Sundays talk about the revolutionary war was great, very inspiring, and interesting stories.
After lunch the sun started to cause problems for me thanks to my stock front sight having a somewhat glossy finish and radiused edges. lucky the instructors had an answer and we got it fixed for a little bit... but as the sun came down a bit nothing was going to save me. 177 was my high for the day.

Overall, I am unbelievably grateful for the incredible instruction that we were given, I am very glad I got to shoot with PaxxAZ, and I learned so much about shooting it was unbelievable.
over the course of 18 hours of instruction and around 600 rounds I went from being a complete beginner without a clue what he was doing and shooting a 67 on the AQT to shooting 177. I also went from groups that were the size of my palm to a few groups of five rounds that overlapped eachother.
I have absolutely nothing negative to say about the appleseed shooting events, and I will definitely be going back.

After thinking a bit about the issues I was having saturday and sunday afternoon with point of impact moving but staying consistent I think I have finally figured it out.
The MP15-22 upper and lower recievers are polymer... as is the picatinny rail... which is not a fully free floating rail. I was wearing the sling pretty damn tight, and I think that after changing how I was wearing the sling and the tension on it etc... that it was transferring load differently through the rail system, recievers, and barrel. So thats something I need to get figured out. Also it might be nice to invest in a better set of sights. I will not buy a scope or red dot for this rifle til I score rifleman with Irons, but I think these irons arent quite the best for the precision required by appleseed.

anyways I think I have said enough, I am going to get anyone I can to shoot appleseed. Thank you so much Instructors!
Oh and heres a pic of PaxxAZ recieving his orange hat. Congrats again buddy  ^:)^

slinged_in

AZmule - It looks like Paxx and AWDboostADDICT beat you to the AAR!!  The constructive criticism and kind words are very much appreciated.  All of the shooters on the line (All three of you) kept an open mind, worked hard, and did a fantastic job. 

It definitely made my weekend to see Paxx get his Rifleman (And orange hat!!), and for AWDboost to improve so much. 

I hope I get to see you guys at the Sierra Vista shoot.

slinged_in  (Colton)

AWDboostADDICT

Colton,
Sorry I called you Caleb, Im terrible with names, my bad!
Thank you so much for the support and helping me improve by such great leaps and bounds this weekend. Cant wait for another appleseed with you guys.
What was the sling you were saying you had from vikings tactics?
I may have to get one of those so I can carry on my shoulder and still do support/ load bearing hold.
also here is a link to my AAR on ar15.com

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_8_13/471361_.html&page=1

PaxxAZ

AWDboostADDICT:
Thanks, it was great watching you shoot and improve as we went, I was really thinking that another hour without the sun in our sights and you would have had it.

I personally would not change the sites on the rifle just yet, I did not get a great look at them, but I was a bit envious of the rifle sites included.
Anyone firing on Sunday with Iron sights would have had issues; Saturday was all overcast, terrible for keeping warm but great for not having glare. Last time we shot there we were waiting for clouds.
Thanks for the kind words. You are really good, keep it up and it is yours.  ~~:)
AZ is a great place to shoot, no matter your flavor, if you are willing to drive two hours you can probably have a competition of your flavor every week.

Slinged_in:
The man who taught me what trigger control is, at my first Appleseed, and made sure I could hear him. Thanks man, and it was great to see you again.

Here are the Podcasts I was talking about, the I Tunes U will require Itunes but the price is Right...Free. The 2 Cent History, is free as well but can be downloaded with whatever. Both give a deeper perspective into the thinking and goings on that ultimately lead up to this experiment we call The United States of America. It is also an interesting contrast, as history on this is not totally clear, but there is a ton of writings about it. One could argue that all history is unclear, but I am kind of a history Fan.

http://itunes.apple.com/us/itunes-u/the-american-revolution-audio/id429260982
is the Itunes U Yale lecture series that is great on the Revolutionary war.  Or more to point more about the revolution then the war.

http://www.2centhistory.com/podcast-2cent-history
Great few hours about April 19th 1775.
There are many things talked about that make the people of the US
different; being riflemen is one, asking why is another, as is getting
what needs doing done.

-Me 2011

PaxxAZ

Ack I can't edit these things...

AWDboostADDICT talking on the Line is expected...we are at a range, we are having a good time. Also Thanks alot for the picture. I always forget to take pictures. My first two apple seeds I had Center fire Cartridges hitting me, once in the face each. But the first time the 223 was usually hitting me in the side of the head during prone... hence why I love that goofy hat.

Fun Post on AR15.com, This Weekend I am visiting My Lovely and Wonderfull understanding Girlfriend in Tucson, the next weekend 17-18 is Steel Silhouette At Rio Salado and I am Jonesing for it, missed the last 2 months. However Sunday morning the 18th I think I would be free for some Practice at the Range, or Saturday afternoon, but I will be with Friends and we might want to go eat or some such. If you are not going to Sierra Vista that weekend we can try and see what we can do, and I can save you $2 in range fees.

I guess this also means I am not going to Sierra Vista the 17th and 18th...I have 3 guys and a girlfriend itching to do / Watch Steel Rifle silhouette...and watch me score a 12 out of 60. not to mention I need to get my fix of it as well.

for those interested... http://www.riflesilhouette.com/ Website from one of the best in the state at small bore. Large bore is fun to watch, well both are but Large makes it seem more daunting.

also we can play out to 100 Yards if desired. or 200 of willing to walk.  I can also give you a quick tour of the Range, It's a nice place to shoot...where I saw the Appleseed for the first time, like a week after i heard about it and expected it to be a regular occurring thing at that Rio Salado...not so I found out later. 

There are many things talked about that make the people of the US
different; being riflemen is one, asking why is another, as is getting
what needs doing done.

-Me 2011

AWDboostADDICT

Haha yeah i couldnt find a way to edi tmy posts either.

Scott,
Great review, thank you very much for the kind words. I am very eager to practice as much as possible, make a few slight equipment changes and get to my next appleseed! I feel pretty confident that with good conditions and me being in the zone I can shoot Rifleman. But I really want to be able to shoot rifleman in bad conditions, or when I am having troubles, in my opinion a true rifleman will come through no matter what influences are being put on him be it stress physical or mental, or enviromental conditions. and I think that will definantly take more time.

Pablo,
There is nothing silly about equipment with reason behind it ;)
what is silly is equiptment to look cool, with no real function.
I'm still sorry about talking on the line, I was trying to keep quite so I didnt cause a distraction.
Do you shoot at Rio Salado? I have been thinking about getting a membership there now that I am moving to Chandler, I think it would be great if we could get a chance to go out there and get some practice in in the new year.
The rifle silhoute looks like a great event, I will definantly be signing up as i gain more confidence in my shooting abilities.
as for the sights, Ar sights are wonderful, but it is semi frustrating with the sun, I just want to do everything I can to make my shooting consistant, no matter what conditions I experience. I may look into having the front sight squared up, and then just having them painted a flatter darker black to help prevent glare as they are slightly glossy.

Once again a Huge thanks the AZ_Varian, AZ_Mule, and SLINGED_In. You guys did n incredible job as instructors, there is no way I could have made this progress without your guys' help and encouragement!

PaxxAZ

I am a member and also on occasion shoot at Rio Salado, not nearly as often as I would like though.
It has the public venue and the club venue. On the club venue you need to qualify for each range, I only have my small bore (rimfire) qual. But it is all that I need at the moment. I did not own a firearm until about 3 years ago, and while not smart about it I have been somewhat TCO smart.  The 10/22 is the most amusing rifle to take apart and tinker with in the world. To make is a sub-MOA rifle you are looking at about $2K or more in some cases. But it can be done, I stopped at about  $500 with my other 10/22, and while I will probably purchase a third to make Tackticool....your rifle might be a better investment. But I am seriously debating AR10 M14 or rem-700...all in about the same price category each would be spectacular. But the Rem 700 would be the cheapest if I was going Cheap....but I want my first big boy rifle to be fun.

I have to rescind the invitation for the afternoon of the 17th...part at the Bosses house...I think After New Year is a smart idea.  Though the 18th I am still pretty free.
There are many things talked about that make the people of the US
different; being riflemen is one, asking why is another, as is getting
what needs doing done.

-Me 2011

AWDboostADDICT

I think 10-22's are frickin awesome, I just have been an ar15 guy since I was young, its a very iconic rifle to people in my age group due to the war on terror, war in iraq, and video games. The 15-22 really isnt worth it to me to mod to hell and back, but I dont really care for modifying it to much. Just basic comforts to make it more operator friendly for myself, anything I modify in my life is either to:
A) make it perform better
or
B) make it more operator friendly
and this gun performs well beyond a level I can currently perform at, and really the only things I can do to make it more operator friendly is a GI sling and sights that I can use more consistantly in all conditions.

My advice from my gun purchase, Dont worry about price, decide on what you WANT and if you have to save for a few more weeks, so be it. I thought about a few less expensive 22's that I could have walked in to a gun store and bought on the spot, but in the end I said you know what, I like the AR Platform, I see myself using that platform in the future, and this weapon platform is a blast to shoot, so Ill save an extra week or two, even if it is just a 22.

Im on the same boat with which "big boy" gun do I want.
I really would like an m14 or an Ar10 would be awesome, just not sure if I can take either of those over a nice 5.56 Ar15. I will not get a larger bore rifle until I qualify rifleman, but I am checking out parts for an AR build.
it sucks becuase today I am looking at parts for doing a build at work, and I come across this:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_124/550001_New_Rifle__Rainier_Arms_Urban_Carbine_RUC____14_5_or_16.html

Almost exactly what I want, its been very hard not to pull out the credit card haha.
I just keep reminding myself I havent qualified rifleman with a 22 yet therefor I have not earned the right to purchase it.

I may be able to do the 18th, I would have to see how things go, I know that weekend my girlfriends work is doing a christmas party, so ill have to get details on that and make sure that I dont have anything planned.
but the sooner and more often I can get out there and practice, especially with true riflemen, the sooner I will become one myself.... and get to finally purchase a GD big boy gun ] :---

Also to all.
I have been trying to pressure some of the PHX guys from ar15.com into going to an appleseed, got 4-5 guys currently interested that I believe will actually follow through and show up, they just want to know in decent advance. so is there any word on some planning for appleseeds in the new year?
They seem somewhat open to even going to sierra vista or kingman

PaxxAZ

Did not mean to go silent all of a sudden, excuse errors of spelling and grammar, as this night called for a few refreshments. 

I think we are off topic and should probably go to the Arizona area of the forum.

http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?board=178.0

there is allot of interesting things to read...if anything PM me or paxx221@gmail.com so I can introduce you to the Rio Salado range, I recommend a membership, and a gate pass if you are an early riser.

As far as the 18th I will probably bring the Girlfriend, another friend, the roommate and hoping for a co-worker/friend (I am very choice on the word friend and he qualifies) the Roommate is a friend as well as I knew him long before.

So I am recommending we start a new topic. Rio Salado 12/18/11 or email me personally and we will move on.
There are many things talked about that make the people of the US
different; being riflemen is one, asking why is another, as is getting
what needs doing done.

-Me 2011

AWDboostADDICT

well my brother decided to change our move in date at our new place from this weekend to next weekend so I dont think Ill be able to make it to the match :/
but I started a new thread in AZ about the .22 matches at rio salado.