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Appleseed and Air Rifles?

Started by k0sh, April 24, 2011, 10:32:22 PM

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k0sh

(Yeah, I know that thread topic is coffee-spittingly amusing!)

Dear NH-Appleseeders,

I live across the border in the Ppl's Republic of Vermont, but I'm considering attending one of the Appleseeds in Enfield, NH.  It's a much closer drive than Proctor, VT.

My main question is one of range... My only rifle - at this time - is a pretty high-powered air rifle (RWS34Pro).  At some point, we'll be investing in a .22 and, eventually, some bigger toys.  But, for now, I can't justify the additional cash out of the budget.  My son also has an air rifle, and we've been going to our local shooting range to shoot paper with our guns at 50ft.  My son's also been attending the club's Jr. Marksmanship class, shooting .22s, and enjoying the slow climb up the Winchester/NRA marksmanship qualies.

I'd like to be able to be a bit of a coach to him, but I'm a novice shooter.  I was hoping to attend an Appleseed to get some basic training.  I know that I won't be able to qualify with my rifle - even if I'm accurate enough.  The fact is there's no way I can reload fast enough to put enough shots down range on the faster stages.  But, I still think I'd have a ball.  And I'd love to see what I *can* learn or accomplish.

I just thought I'd send out for thoughts from people before registering.  Would love to hear from you.

Thanks,   K0sh

dwarven1

Kosh, I'm pretty sure that the NH folks can arrange for a loaner. Failing that, you can come down to Leyden, MA if you like. I know that I'll have my loaner rifles there with me for the May and July shoots.
Unhappy it is ... to reflect that a brother's sword has been sheathed in a brother's breast, and that the once happy and peaceful plains of America are either to be drenched with blood or inhabited by slaves. Sad alternative! But can a virtuous man hesitate in his choice?

GEORGE WASHINGTON

k0sh

Thanks for the reply, Dwarven...  I'll wait to hear.  I have to admit that part of me is interested to try it with my rifle since I really like it...  But I would definitely be interested in options.

I did just 'discover' the Marlin 795... If the prices haven't increased too much, that might be something that wouldn't break the bank.

fprintf

Hi K0sh, there is a whole lot of information on the the Marlin 795. No matter what you bring, you will learn the most if you have a rifle that you can utilize all the instruction on. This means a rifle that has sling studs with swivels and a GI sling. Even better is if your rifle comes with peep sights. The 795 has been a really fantastic platform for creating a Marlin Liberty Teaching Rifle (LTR) but out of the box it needs some work - 1) sling swivels and a GI sling, 2) 3 extra 10 round magazines, 3) Tech-Sights. So for about $225 you can have an awesome learning tool.

But like the Dwarven1 has said, if you find an event where you can try before you buy, even better!!!   :D
I'm good enough, I'm smart enough, and dog-gone it people like me!  ~Stuart Smalley

nyrasgt

     Seem to remember seeing 10 meter reduced AS targets 'round here somewhere...

    Also, because of New York's laws restricting those under 12 from firing a cartidge firearm, I will henceforth be bringing a Daisy 853C and, perhaps, the legendary Red Ryder BB gun, as sub-12 y.o. loaners.  Being single shot, these are less than ideal, but better than seeing (again) tears because the parent failed to read the fine print...

Excelsior,
madMark
"Aim for a high mark and you will hit it.  No, not the first time, nor the second, and maybe not the third. But keep on aiming and keep on shooting,
for only practice will make you perfect.
Finally, you will hit the bulls-eye of success."
-Annie Oakley Butler
A Rifleman Persists
"Nemo me impune lacessit."  Montresor, via E. A. Poe, 1846

azmule

It would be tough to keep up with the timed fire portions of an AQT with an air rifle, definitely make use of a loaner to attend if available.  However, air rifles are wonderful tools for easy practice - for all the reasons that we recommend dry-fire, but with target feedback.  I have a 10m range set up at home where I can practice with my air rifles when I can't go to the rifle range.  Everything we teach (short of the timed rapid fire stuff) can be practiced using an air rifle, and my favorite (Walther LGR) is far more accurate (~0.1moa) than any of my .22s, so I know with that one that if the shot isn't exactly where I called it, it's not the rifle or ammo's fault.
Talk is cheap because the supply exceeds the demand.

Do or do not - there is no "try."'  -Yoda

Ninsho

k0sh send me a PM if the Marlin doesn't work out and I can help try and coordinate a loaner for you.

k0sh

Thanks everyone for the replies... I'm thrilled to hear from you all.

Quote from: nyrasgt on April 25, 2011, 09:29:26 PM
     Seem to remember seeing 10 meter reduced AS targets 'round here somewhere...
As AZMule noted, my issue isn't the range at all.  I know I've got enough energy to get down-to-target accurately unless the wind is really something special.  The problem is time since my rifle is a single-shot, break-barrel.  I love the thing, but it would be slow.  I shot a scaled 50ft QDT at the range using the very cool Android phone timing app.  I did ok, but was always short on rounds in the faster-paced segments.  Few enough that, even banging 5s on the rest would mean I *fail*.  :)

Quote from: Ninsho on April 25, 2011, 10:14:43 PM
k0sh send me a PM if the Marlin doesn't work out and I can help try and coordinate a loaner for you.
I will... Thanks!  Truthfully, I may be interested in the loaner approach anyway - if that's possible.  I'm really torn over what to get if I pony up the cash now.  Having a chance to handle a couple at an event might be a good option.  Lest I clutter another thread, I'll lay out the basics here and see if people have any thoughts:

I have two adults and two kids who are likely going to be shooting in my family.  My son (age 10), in particular, has taken to marksmanship.  He's been attending a junior rifle group at our range and finished out his NRA smallbore Sharpshooter qualification.  They're using Savage Mk I FVTs there (bolt action, peeps, and heavy barrel) and my first instinct was to buy the same gun.  The cost is a little prohibitive, especially since I'd realistically need to buy a spare stock.

The next thing I was turned onto was the 10/22, largely through writings here and on RimfireCentral.  The trick there seems to be that the 10/22 is a tinkerer's platform, and I'm not in a position to pay for a lot of upgrades.  I think if I could find a cheap 10/22 target, it'd probably be a done deal...

Then I started hearing good things about the Marlin (again, from here mainly).  The cost is a great bonus, but I've been told they're not quite as robust or reliable as the 10/22.

So, I feel stuck.  I'd like a reliable rifle that I could take to an Appleseed and not fight the rifle all day.  Plus, I need it to be something that I can stock up (reduce the LOP) for the son to shoot as a good practice rifle with sufficient accuracy to not frustrate him. 

Maybe I'm being overly analytical about this but, after all, I am a nerd for a living... So, there you go.   #)

I'd love any thoughts from folks.  In the meantime, thanks again for all the help so far!

nyrasgt

    Our Garand buddies at the CMP will also sell Daisy 853 single pump, single shot air rifles with loop sling and relatively good, but inexpensive, target sights for $212.
    Daisy also makes a club-in-box, containing 2 x 853s and two lower-level air rifles...working on getting a current price from
Daisy.  Will advise when I hear.
Excelsior,
madMark
"Aim for a high mark and you will hit it.  No, not the first time, nor the second, and maybe not the third. But keep on aiming and keep on shooting,
for only practice will make you perfect.
Finally, you will hit the bulls-eye of success."
-Annie Oakley Butler
A Rifleman Persists
"Nemo me impune lacessit."  Montresor, via E. A. Poe, 1846

fprintf

Quote from: k0sh on April 25, 2011, 10:34:47 PM
Then I started hearing good things about the Marlin (again, from here mainly).  The cost is a great bonus, but I've been told they're not quite as robust or reliable as the 10/22.

Ruger vs. Marlin is a little like Chevy vs. Ford among the car guys. At the end of the day both rifles do the job exceptionally well for very little money. Some will say out of the box the Marlin is more accurate and easy to use with cold or small/larger fingers. Others will say the Ruger is better because you can make it something really special and it is accurate enough for the job it has to do.

I am a fan of the 795 as the best LTR out there but either option works. Semi-auto - check. 10-round replaceable magazine - check. Works with a GI sling - check. Tech-Sights available - check. So try them both if you get a chance and see what you like!
I'm good enough, I'm smart enough, and dog-gone it people like me!  ~Stuart Smalley

k0sh

Quote from: nyrasgt on April 25, 2011, 10:40:36 PM
   [madMark said some stuff about air rifles...

Actually, both kids have their own air rifle.... Daughter has a Daisy BB/Pellet repeater, son has a lower-powered break barrel similar to mine.  The reason for purchasing the .22 is mainly to do Appleseed *and* to have a rifle that the boy can use at his Marksmanship classes.  As it stands, the rotate through guns there and sights need to be re-zeroed, etc. every couple strings.  Kids can bring their own rifle, and I'd like something that he could practice with at the range and then use at his classes.

We currently can plink in the back yard with either of the kid's pellet rifles.  Mine's a little strong for the yard, and neither of the springers are terribly agreeable with slings. 

To FPrintf's comments:  Yeah, I know there's a bit of brand loyalty at work in all the discussions around Marlin vs. Ruger vs. Savage and so on.  I guess I keep hoping to get some objective data from someone trusted, you know?  :)  Your comments re: the general nature of the Ruger and Marlin rifles is helpful.  Cost and accuracy are key for us.  In the long run, I'd like a project to tinker with... But, right now, I want out-of-the-box functionality.  With that in mind, it sounds like you'd direct someone to the Marlin.  Will definitely give it another look.

k0sh

The 1 that comes with the gun, the two I'll fumble and eventually bat down-range when everyone's firing, and the one I'll actually get in just as time's expiring.  Yeah, that's three extra.   ;)

Garand69

#12
Quote from: nyrasgt on April 25, 2011, 09:29:26 PM
     Seem to remember seeing 10 meter reduced AS targets 'round here somewhere...

    Also, because of New York's laws restricting those under 12 from firing a cartidge firearm, I will henceforth be bringing a Daisy 853C and, perhaps, the legendary Red Ryder BB gun, as sub-12 y.o. loaners.  Being single shot, these are less than ideal, but better than seeing (again) tears because the parent failed to read the fine print...

Excelsior,
madMark

I thought I had seen those targets as well nyrasgt, but I couldn't find them, BUT attached is a 50ft QDAQT. I would use 2 side by side and divide the 10 shots per stage across both of them. This would be great for the indoor range already being used and of course for using the Air Rifles at home (if you can). NOTE: When printing those Targets choose NONE for page scaling in order to maintain correct sizing, your computer may try to automatically scale to "Fit the page"

k0sh, don't get caught up in needing the perfect rifle for Appleseed. The most important thing to do is get you and your Son to an Appleseed with Rifles and ammo. What will get you to Rifleman quicker? Buying a used Marlin mod 60 tube-fed with zero modifications for 50-60 bucks and getting to the next available Appleseed Shoot, or saving up for all the bells and whistles and missing Appleseed Shoots because you don't have everything on the "LTR List" yet???

I have seen shooters score Rifleman with all sorts of Rifles, including a young kid in Evansville IN, that scored Rifleman with a tube fed Marlin without a sling and with factory sights. I have also seen shooters with single shot .22's make tremendous advancement in marksmanship at an Appleseed Shoot and even ace Standing and seated only to narrowly miss Rifleman because they ran out of time in Stage 2 & 3.

NEVER make "not having the right rifle" an excuse to either not attend an Appleseed or as an excuse as to why you have not achieved Rifleman yet.

See you on the Trail O0
Garand69

42

WSMR 03-10 ...SAPPER STEEL!!!!

"Don't tell people how to do things, tell them what to do and let them surprise you with their results." - General George S. Patton Jr

"One can covet success or one can covet being Right, but if he covets both, he will achieve neither" - Stimey


Do not fire unless fired upon, but if they mean to have war......Let it start here.

God grant me the courage not to give up what I think is right, even though I think it is HOPELESS.
-Chester W. Nimitz

dwarven1

Kosh,

Either the Marlin or the Ruger should do you fine. While I like the Ruger more, I've also had one for a long time and am very familiar with it. However... one rifle I tell people to stay away from is the Remington 597. I'm not the only one who's seen one barf it's extractor at an Appleseed. And when I was working for a firearms distributor, I couldn't GIVE these things away. I sold ZERO of them - no dealers wanted them. That, to me, is the kiss of death.

JustJeff - You have obviously never had the fun of attending an AS in New England. We do the stage by stage AQT here but we also do the rapid-fire AQT: 40 rounds in 4 minutes. You need those 4 magazines loaded before you start.

And finally... at the Springfield Sportsman's Show I think it was Crossman that had a portable range set up with some kind of cartridge-powered repeating air rifle. It had peep sights, too, IIRC. Nice little rifle. I'll have to look through my catalogs when I get home and see if I can find the model. (At least, I think it was Crossman... I'm not even sure of that, to be honest. I'll know when I see the catalog)
Unhappy it is ... to reflect that a brother's sword has been sheathed in a brother's breast, and that the once happy and peaceful plains of America are either to be drenched with blood or inhabited by slaves. Sad alternative! But can a virtuous man hesitate in his choice?

GEORGE WASHINGTON

k0sh

Quote from: dwarven1 on April 26, 2011, 10:58:12 AMEither the Marlin or the Ruger should do you fine. While I like the Ruger more, I've also had one for a long time and am very familiar with it.
Good to know...  Thanks.

QuoteAnd finally... at the Springfield Sportsman's Show I think it was Crossman that had a portable range set up with some kind of cartridge-powered repeating air rifle. It had peep sights, too, IIRC. Nice little rifle. I'll have to look through my catalogs when I get home and see if I can find the model. (At least, I think it was Crossman... I'm not even sure of that, to be honest. I'll know when I see the catalog)
There are lots of companies making repeaters using CO2 or other compressed/store air.  Benjamin - who is owned by Crosman - has a pre-charged pneumatic (PCP) called the Marauder that would make a good LTR, minus the price and need to carry a couple bottles of air.

http://www.pyramydair.com/p/Benjamin-Marauder-air-rifle.shtml

k0sh

Quote from: Garand69 on April 26, 2011, 10:27:16 AM
I thought I had seen those targets as well nyrasgt, but I couldn't find them, BUT attached is a 50ft QDAQT. I would use 2 side by side and divide the 10 shots per stage across both of them.
Garand:  Sorry that I missed you message earlier and didn't respond.  Thanks for the post.

I've been using the 50ft QD targets... They're a ton of fun.

Quotek0sh, don't get caught up in needing the perfect rifle for Appleseed. The most important thing to do is get you and your Son to an Appleseed with Rifles and ammo. What will get you to Rifleman quicker? Buying a used Marlin mod 60 tube-fed with zero modifications for 50-60 bucks and getting to the next available Appleseed Shoot, or saving up for all the bells and whistles and missing Appleseed Shoots because you don't have everything on the "LTR List" yet???
Well, just to be clear, I haven't missed anything yet.  :)  Remember, I started by asked whether or not I could just bring the air rifle.

My hemming and hawing re: the .22 rifles is simply trying to managing costs.  Over the winter I forked out more money than the budget allowed for the (air) rifle I have and access to an indoor range.  Shelling out any more, even for the shoot, is tricky.  So, I'm just trying to make a thoughtful investment that's going to last and serve well - both for the shoot and for other things.

QuoteI have also seen shooters with single shot .22's make tremendous advancement in marksmanship at an Appleseed Shoot and even ace Standing and seated only to narrowly miss Rifleman because they ran out of time in Stage 2 & 3.
Heh.  You're talking to a guy who's already built a spreadsheet to track our shooting performance. :)  I think the rifle I have (depending on range) would be more than adequate accuracy-wise.  But I know I'd throw some goose eggs up during the more rapid, timed portions for the AQT.  I've done the math, and they'd be enough to really throw scores off.  :)


I'm heading to a few local gun shops on Friday, including a trip down to Dick's if needed since I haven't seen anywhere than has the Marlin just for comparison.  If I don't get up the stones to put the cash down, I'll probably try to go the loaner route.   

Thanks, everyone, for the posts... I welcome all the feedback!

wcmartin1

Here's a couple more targets that you can use for practice.

Along with a dry-fire target.
"Unhappy it is, though, to reflect that a brother's sword has been sheathed in a brother's breast and that the once-happy and peaceful plains of America are either to be drenched with blood or inhabited by a race of slaves.  Sad alternative!  But can a virtuous man hesitate in his choice?" - George Washington - from a letter to a close friend after the events of April 19, 1775

"There is no nation on earth powerful enough to accomplish our (the United States) overthrow.  Our destruction, should it come at all, will be from another quarter.  From the inattention of the people to the concerns of their government, from their carelessness and negligence, I must confess that I do apprehend some danger.  I fear that they may place too implicit a confidence in their public servants, and fail properly to scrutinize their conduct; that in this way they may be made the dupes of designing men, and become the instruments of their own undoing." - Daniel Webster, June 1, 1837